Our OC may not be the answer

[VikingsVictorious]

Cousins is a QB that cannot succeed on his strengths alone. He is a QB that is best when complimented by a strong running game and an athletic offensive line. When he has those, he can throw dimes all day long without fear of having to run for his life. When he does have to scramble though, he's hardly the worst choice. He is hardly Roethlisberger levels slow and can force defenders out of position to make a throw if given the opportunity.

The problem with years' past is that Cousins has had barely an opportunity to succeed with many of those things.

No QB has ever won on his strengths alone. It has never happened. He has to have good football players on his team with him.

[StumpHunter]

Cousins is a QB that cannot succeed on his strengths alone. He is a QB that is best when complimented by a strong running game and an athletic offensive line. When he has those, he can throw dimes all day long without fear of having to run for his life. When he does have to scramble though, he's hardly the worst choice. He is hardly Roethlisberger levels slow and can force defenders out of position to make a throw if given the opportunity.

The problem with years' past is that Cousins has had barely an opportunity to succeed with many of those things.

No QB has ever won on his strengths alone. It has never happened. He has to have good football players on his team with him.

It bothers me how much people rip on my favorite team. They were a good team last year, not the Cleveland browns.

[Rhodes Closed]

Cousins is a QB that cannot succeed on his strengths alone. He is a QB that is best when complimented by a strong running game and an athletic offensive line. When he has those, he can throw dimes all day long without fear of having to run for his life. When he does have to scramble though, he's hardly the worst choice. He is hardly Roethlisberger levels slow and can force defenders out of position to make a throw if given the opportunity.

The problem with years' past is that Cousins has had barely an opportunity to succeed with many of those things.

For me the point is the Vikings can win with Cousins. He doesn't have to be brilliant, either. Just competent and he's more than capable of that provided the other pieces in place are competent too.

For sure. You give him the pieces to succeed and he will do it 9/10 times. He's not a bad player. Above average and he's a great person to boot. We don't need an elite QB to win games. Case Keenum and to an extent Sam Bradford has shown that with a worse offensive line.

I'm genuinely excited to see Elflein perform at Guard this year.

[VikingsVictorious]

For me the point is the Vikings can win with Cousins. He doesn't have to be brilliant, either. Just competent and he's more than capable of that provided the other pieces in place are competent too.

For sure. You give him the pieces to succeed and he will do it 9/10 times. He's not a bad player. Above average and he's a great person to boot. We don't need an elite QB to win games. Case Keenum and to an extent Sam Bradford has shown that with a worse offensive line.

I'm genuinely excited to see Elflein perform at Guard this year.

Give him the pieces to succeed he could win 16 times in the regular season and 3 more in the playoffs.

[808vikingsfan]

808 did you watch the video? They showed several instances where Cousins gets stripped and it is a result of an OL breakdown that offers him minimal chance of success, let along means to protect the football. Is the fumble really all his fault in that scenario?

The vid also makes the point that the Vikings were the most lopsided team in terms of run to pass play selection. (heavily favoring passing.) Perhaps the defense is able to tee off a bit due to predictability?

It was just "maybe the OC was bad". Watch the video. The OC WAS BAD!

Better decision making, better feel of the pocket could have avoided the fumbles IMO. It's not like he's getting sacked right at the snap. He has almost 3 seconds in each of the fumbles.

Cousins has a history of fumbling. I don't see how we can ignore that fact.

"Since becoming a starting quarterback for the Washington Redskins in 2015, Cousins leads the NFL in fumbles with 37, having lost 16, also a league-high, according to ESPN Stats & Information. It’s an issue that’s not just limited to his NFL career. As a senior at Michigan State in 2011, Cousins’ eight fumbles were tied for the second-most in the Big Ten."

Look familiar?:
https://twitter.com/nickolsonnfl/status ... 6971821061

Also: Cousins fumbled 8 times and lost 6 in the first 9 games. After week 10, he only recorded 1 fumble. JDF was let go in week 14.

Cousins needs to take care of the ball and make better decisions. When he starts doing that, the Vikings will start winning the games they need to win (teams with winning records).

[mansquatch]

808 did you watch the video? They showed several instances where Cousins gets stripped and it is a result of an OL breakdown that offers him minimal chance of success, let along means to protect the football. Is the fumble really all his fault in that scenario?

The vid also makes the point that the Vikings were the most lopsided team in terms of run to pass play selection. (heavily favoring passing.) Perhaps the defense is able to tee off a bit due to predictability?

It was just "maybe the OC was bad". Watch the video. The OC WAS BAD!




You obviously didn't watch the video. It showed at least two instances where he gets strip sacked due to his OL providing terrible pass protection. In one instance vs. the Rams Reiff has terrible technique against the outside rusher and IIRMC Remmers gets bullrushed up the middle all on the same play. There is nowhere for Kirk to go and he gets stripped just as he gets to the top of his drop. If you are going to give him full blame for that then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

[StumpHunter]

808 did you watch the video? They showed several instances where Cousins gets stripped and it is a result of an OL breakdown that offers him minimal chance of success, let along means to protect the football. Is the fumble really all his fault in that scenario?

The vid also makes the point that the Vikings were the most lopsided team in terms of run to pass play selection. (heavily favoring passing.) Perhaps the defense is able to tee off a bit due to predictability?

It was just "maybe the OC was bad". Watch the video. The OC WAS BAD!




You obviously didn't watch the video. It showed at least two instances where he gets strip sacked due to his OL providing terrible pass protection. In one instance vs. the Rams Reiff has terrible technique against the outside rusher and IIRMC Remmers gets bullrushed up the middle all on the same play. There is nowhere for Kirk to go and he gets stripped just as he gets to the top of his drop. If you are going to give him full blame for that then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

The video doesn't prove what you think it does. Did the line breakdown at times last year? Absolutely, and Brett did a nice job of pointing those situations out. What he didn't do, was take into account the QB's ability to get rid of the ball quicker, as well as their ability to move to avoid sacks. The first Cousins was bad at, and there are numbers to back that up, and the second he was bad at and you can watch the film as proof.

There were other lopsided teams in terms of pass and rush in the NFL last year, and most were significantly better at scoring than the Vikings.

There were obstacles to winning created by his coaches and team that Cousins would have had to overcome in those losses to winning teams, but Cousins himself was an obstacle to overcome for his team in most of those games as well. No reasonable person could argue otherwise.

[VikingLord]

There were obstacles to winning created by his coaches and team that Cousins would have had to overcome in those losses to winning teams, but Cousins himself was an obstacle to overcome for his team in most of those games as well. No reasonable person could argue otherwise.

Are you sure about that?

I think I said it earlier, but if the OC knows his QB doesn't move particularly well and doesn't protect the ball particularly well and the offense doesn't run the ball particularly well nor does it pass protect in obvious passing situations particularly well, does it make sense for said OC to continue to put that QB into situations where none of those liabilities are minimized?

Said another way in the context of the Kollman analysis, look at the underneath drag route play calls against the Bears. Time and again, the Bears defense demonstrated that not only did it recognize those plays pre-snap, but that it could consistently defend them every time. Did that stop said OC from continuing to call them? Did that prompt said OC to add some variability to those plays that might take advantage of the Bears for being too eager or too confident they knew what was coming?

Here's the thing - you put any QB into situations where you expose his weaknesses and you're going to get a predictable result. You put Tom Brady into situations where his weaknesses are exposed and he's going to blow it too more often than not. Superman is amazing, but even he is susceptible to kryptonite and Lois Lane. So how do you make sure Superman can be super? You keep him away from situations where either kryptonite or Lois Lane might get in the way.

Same goes for Cousins. There are so many failures at so many levels of the offense last year that in my opinion trying to tease out Cousins' contribution to the results is an exercise in futility at best and speculation at worst. Could he have played better? Yeah, sure. Is it reasonable to expect him to have overcome the complete incompetence surrounding him? No, I don't think it is reasonable nor is it fair to him.

Honestly, I can't say that Cousins isn't the problem either. My point is, the only way to know that is for the other variables on offense to absolve themselves. Play better and more consistently. Put Cousins into situations where he can succeed and the likelihood of his success is higher. Then see what he does. If he's still rumbling and fumbling and bumbling even when given the best chances to succeed, THEN call him out as the main problem. Heck, I'll agree with you at that point.

[808vikingsfan]

What was he asked to do in those examples? OK, maybe the OC was bad, Plays break down, linemen miss assignments from time to time. Still, Cousins needs to Protect the ball. Make better decisions. That's what he needs to do no matter what play was called.

He's being asked to sit back in obvious passing situations with a garbage offensive line and no real running threat and then expected to thread balls into tightly covered receivers when we know that Cousins isn't great at evading pressure, throwing on the run, or taking a lot of contested chances. That is the QB the Vikings have. They have a guy who, like most pro QBs, is going to struggle if his OL can't block consistently in those situations and defenses are up tight to disrupt routes like what the Pats ran on defense.

In the examples he's given, Cousins had time to throw. He just didn't make the right decision, even if it meant to tuck and run for a loss of yardage. I'm glad you admit he has limitations. I don't agree that he doesn't take chances as Diggs and Thielen were up there in contested catches. Cousins does get bailed out quite a bit. I just want people to admit his ball security and decision making is very suspect and needs to be addressed. In essence, he is part of the problem.

I guess my point is, you can't realistically expect to see Cousins at his best if the overall offense and scheme put him consistently into situations where defenses are now able to adjust to maximize his weaknesses. That's what I think Kollman was trying to say and show in his analysis.

So are we saying that in the 8 years (5 starting) Cousins has been in the league, he was never put in a good situation? Is that why none of the teams he led didn't win more than 9 games and has a record of 4-24 against winning teams? I have a hard time believing that. I really don't know what Cousins best is. Yeah he puts up stats, but his record speaks volumes IMO. There's something missing in his game to put him over the top. I believe he makes critical mistakes, and doesn't make the big play when necessary.

The two fumbles and pick 6 in Kollman's are good examples. He just doesn't make good decisions when under pressure. This is Cousins 8th year? He's been known for a lack of pocket awareness and for making bad plays that hurt his team his entire career. I don't see why we think this will change. He's had good OLs in WAS with good weapons around him. The Vikings need to build the perfect team to win with Cousins. Which comes down to my point, he's part of the problem.

Which pick 6 are you talking about? The one against the Saints was not Cousin's fault. The one against the Bears was more his fault, but there I agreed with Kollman that Cousins was trying to overcompensate for the offensive line play that just sucked up and down the line (in both games against the Bears, really). And you're seriously going to put the blame for all of the strip sacks on Cousins after watching Kollman's examples?

Pick 6 that Diggs changed his route. Cousins just panicked and made a bad decision. And yes, I am putting blame on Cousins for the strip sacks. He had time, he could have made a quicker decision and got the ball out earlier, felt the pressure and tuck, or just take the sack. He has a history of not protecting the ball.

They don't need to built the perfect team to win with Cousins. Just give him a competent running game that can keep defenses guessing a little and avoid getting the offense into so many 3rd-and-longs, give him an offensive line that can protect him, and give him an offensive coordinator who can figure out what a defense is doing and make some adjustments. That last game example where the Bears kept knocking out that short crossing route to Diggs is emblematic of an OC who has no clue. If the defense shows it recognizes a play like that, then add a wrinkle that punishes them for that recognition by altering something to take advantage of it.

Sure there were breakdowns. But there were a lot of times where the OL did their job and Cousins didn't do his. The first 3rd down of the GB game comes to mind (if memory serves). 3rd down, drops back, has time, holds on the ball too long, gets sacked. Thielen is open down the middle but Kirk doesn't pull the trigger. Next play, punt is blocked and Vikings down 0-7. Opportunities missed like that can be the difference between winning and losing.

I'm sure no QB is going to be perfect. Even Brady is going to miss things and make a few bad throws.

But I still agree with Kollman on Cousins. Cousins was not the main problem with the offense last year. He stands out only because he was a high profile FA who is getting big money while playing the position where mistakes tend to magnified.

Let's agree to revisit this at the end of this season. Barring major injuries or surprises, like a suspension or something, I think we can both agree that the offensive line looks to be improved overall, the running game should be better, and there is a good chance that the offensive strategy and game planning should be better overall. In other words, Cousins should have a better supporting cast and, as a result, fewer excuses for poor play.

If his supporting cast is indeed better and the result of his play is not, I'll likely agree with your assessment. I just can't do it after what I saw last year. It's too harsh a condemnation of the guy based on the situation he was in.

I think what you're ultimately saying is Cousins does have limitations and he's not the main problem. With a better running game, better protection, Cousins and the offense may flourish. I can agree with this. I mean I do think he'll put up his numbers which I could care less about. Even if the Vikings do have a solid team top to bottom, I still dread what Cousins will do when a play does break down. Maybe the Vikings can build big enough leads so we won't have to find out.

[VikingLord]

I'm glad you admit he has limitations. I don't agree that he doesn't take chances as Diggs and Thielen were up there in contested catches. Cousins does get bailed out quite a bit. I just want people to admit his ball security and decision making is very suspect and needs to be addressed. In essence, he is part of the problem.

Yes, he has limitations. I think every QB has limitations. My point is, I think there are ways to minimize the risks associated with those limitations by not consistently putting him into situations where the limitations are more exposed, which I felt happened to him a lot last year.

Cousins could definitely secure the ball better by holding it closer to his chest and more in front of his body when he's scanning the field. Absolutely he could and should do that. But once the wind up starts, most QBs will fumble if their arms are hit.

Decision making isn't terrible in my view. I've watched QBs who consistently made bad decisions (e.g. Christian Ponder) and I personally think a QB who consistently makes bad decisions doesn't stay in the league long, much less as long as Cousins has managed to stay in not just as a journeyman at his position, but an established starter.

But you put any QB under constant pressure and in obvious passing situations with obvious play calling and that QB's decision making is going to look shaky.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the decision-making aspect of this for now, but I think Cousins shows more good decision-making than bad decision-making overall.

So are we saying that in the 8 years (5 starting) Cousins has been in the league, he was never put in a good situation? Is that why none of the teams he led didn't win more than 9 games and has a record of 4-24 against winning teams? I have a hard time believing that. I really don't know what Cousins best is. Yeah he puts up stats, but his record speaks volumes IMO. There's something missing in his game to put him over the top. I believe he makes critical mistakes, and doesn't make the big play when necessary.

Just read what you wrote there. Cousins has been in the NFL for 8 years and spent 5 as a starter. That's actually quite impressive given the typical shelf life of pro QBs. If the guy was really as questionable as you seem to believe he is, don't you think he'd at least have been shuffled around a lot more and/or had a career more like Case Keenum's as a journeyman?

I'd claim he's had the career he has because he's actually a better option than others and the team's he's been on have as much admitted that.

As for his record, it's a team sport, and teams win and lose games. To put that solely on Cousins is about as fair as calling out Bud Grant as a coach for not winning a Superbowl. I think everyone can agree Grant was an outstanding coach. The end result doesn't tell the whole story.

But to the critical mistakes and big play, you could be right about that. All I'd say to that, though, is if you need a rock star to front your band because the other guys in the band aren't great at what they do, then you better make sure you find a rock star singer. If you have good musicians in the band, you don't need the rock star for the music to sound great. Cousins isn't a rock star QB, but he's more than good enough if the rest of the team around him plays better. I'll leave it at that.

I think what you're ultimately saying is Cousins does have limitations and he's not the main problem. With a better running game, better protection, Cousins and the offense may flourish. I can agree with this. I mean I do think he'll put up his numbers which I could care less about. Even if the Vikings do have a solid team top to bottom, I still dread what Cousins will do when a play does break down. Maybe the Vikings can build big enough leads so we won't have to find out.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

If the Vikings do build big enough leads, Cousins is going to be one of the reasons that happens. Even if he does make a boneheaded decision when the play breaks down as you fear, that won't disprove my point.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

Just read what you wrote there. Cousins has been in the NFL for 8 years and spent 5 as a starter. That's actually quite impressive given the typical shelf life of pro QBs. If the guy was really as questionable as you seem to believe he is, don't you think he'd at least have been shuffled around a lot more and/or had a career more like Case Keenum's as a journeyman?

I'd claim he's had the career he has because he's actually a better option than others and the team's he's been on have as much admitted that.

As for his record, it's a team sport, and teams win and lose games. To put that solely on Cousins is about as fair as calling out Bud Grant as a coach for not winning a Superbowl. I think everyone can agree Grant was an outstanding coach. The end result doesn't tell the whole story.

Cousins was on crap teams in Washington. He was the only reason the Skins were competitive in games there. The only reason. He took a 3 win talent team to the playoffs. He took improving teams, decimated by injury and made them competitive. I know, I watched all the games. Without him the Skins would have challenged Cleveland for first round picks every year.

He is a top 10 level QB every year. He plays 3-4 games a year like a HOFer. 2 crap games a year. The rest are good to very good games.

He has limitations. He is not elite. I mean, there are only 3 of those guys in the league at any time. Give him a decent O line and a running game that the defense has to give some respect to and he is everything you need to get a SB. Put it on him to pass 45 times a game and carry the team, he will get it done some and not some. Good Ds will shut him down if the offense is one dimensional. Shocking, I know. He doesn't have that AR thing of just making something happen, cause he can. Other than that, he is a really good QB. We can complain about his weaknesses cause we're fans and what else are we going to do, but good luck getting a better QB. They exist but again, good luck.

[StumpHunter]

Just read what you wrote there. Cousins has been in the NFL for 8 years and spent 5 as a starter. That's actually quite impressive given the typical shelf life of pro QBs. If the guy was really as questionable as you seem to believe he is, don't you think he'd at least have been shuffled around a lot more and/or had a career more like Case Keenum's as a journeyman?

I'd claim he's had the career he has because he's actually a better option than others and the team's he's been on have as much admitted that.

As for his record, it's a team sport, and teams win and lose games. To put that solely on Cousins is about as fair as calling out Bud Grant as a coach for not winning a Superbowl. I think everyone can agree Grant was an outstanding coach. The end result doesn't tell the whole story.

Cousins was on crap teams in Washington. He was the only reason the Skins were competitive in games there. The only reason. He took a 3 win talent team to the playoffs. He took improving teams, decimated by injury and made them competitive. I know, I watched all the games. Without him the Skins would have challenged Cleveland for first round picks every year.

He is a top 10 level QB every year. He plays 3-4 games a year like a HOFer. 2 crap games a year. The rest are good to very good games.

He has limitations. He is not elite. I mean, there are only 3 of those guys in the league at any time. Give him a decent O line and a running game that the defense has to give some respect to and he is everything you need to get a SB. Put it on him to pass 45 times a game and carry the team, he will get it done some and not some. Good Ds will shut him down if the offense is one dimensional. Shocking, I know. He doesn't have that AR thing of just making something happen, cause he can. Other than that, he is a really good QB. We can complain about his weaknesses cause we're fans and what else are we going to do, but good luck getting a better QB. They exist but again, good luck.

A team with Garcon, Jackson, a top 10 Oline and a defense that averaged giving up the 16th most points per drive is a 3 win team?

[Rhodes Closed]

For sure. You give him the pieces to succeed and he will do it 9/10 times. He's not a bad player. Above average and he's a great person to boot. We don't need an elite QB to win games. Case Keenum and to an extent Sam Bradford has shown that with a worse offensive line.

I'm genuinely excited to see Elflein perform at Guard this year.

Give him the pieces to succeed he could win 16 times in the regular season and 3 more in the playoffs.

I like the way you think.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

Cousins was on crap teams in Washington. He was the only reason the Skins were competitive in games there. The only reason. He took a 3 win talent team to the playoffs. He took improving teams, decimated by injury and made them competitive. I know, I watched all the games. Without him the Skins would have challenged Cleveland for first round picks every year.

He is a top 10 level QB every year. He plays 3-4 games a year like a HOFer. 2 crap games a year. The rest are good to very good games.

He has limitations. He is not elite. I mean, there are only 3 of those guys in the league at any time. Give him a decent O line and a running game that the defense has to give some respect to and he is everything you need to get a SB. Put it on him to pass 45 times a game and carry the team, he will get it done some and not some. Good Ds will shut him down if the offense is one dimensional. Shocking, I know. He doesn't have that AR thing of just making something happen, cause he can. Other than that, he is a really good QB. We can complain about his weaknesses cause we're fans and what else are we going to do, but good luck getting a better QB. They exist but again, good luck.

A team with Garcon, Jackson, a top 10 Oline and a defense that averaged giving up the 16th most points per drive is a 3 win team?

Don't care what the stats suggest. The O-line was abysmal the year prior. When Kirk started playing they became instantly waaaay better. He called out proper protections and got the ball out on time. Now whether he made the o-line better or the previous QB made them much worse is arguable I suppose. But no Skins fan would agree with they had a top 10 o line. It was universally accepted that it was bad. Only when Kirk started playing did talking about how the o line wasn't so bad got mentioned sheepishly once in a while. Garcon was solid. Jackson a one trick pony. A good one, but a one trick pony.
The D? Really? Terms like historically bad were thrown around routinely. Never a good D.

[CharVike]

When I watched the video at the link, I see a QB who was being asked to do things he is not well-suited to do.

What was he asked to do in those examples? OK, maybe the OC was bad, Plays break down, linemen miss assignments from time to time. Still, Cousins needs to Protect the ball. Make better decisions. That's what he needs to do no matter what play was called.

As an example, how many times is Tom Brady criticized for not being talented enough to improvise and extend plays?

I don't think I've ever heard that, and while there have certainly been some Patriot losses where had Tom Brady been a better improviser or scrambler, the team might not have lost, my point is that Belichek rarely puts Brady into situations where he needs to scramble. He does that in multiple ways - he makes sure his offensive line is competent and consistently blocks, he makes sure the Patriots have a competent running game, and he makes sure his offensive scheme and play calling keeps the defense off balance and not the other way around. And yes, sure, Tom Brady knows the offense like the back of his hand, does a great job of adjusting to defensive tendencies and weaknesses pre-snap, and just executes the heck out of the plays that are called, but the bottom line for me is that there is an ocean of difference between what Cousins was handed last year and what a guy like Brady was handed, and while nobody is as good as Brady, had Cousins gotten the same kind of support and breaks, he would have looked a lot better than he did.

If Cousins was winning SBs for this team, you wouldn't hear peep from me. The BIG difference between Brady and Cousins is Brady is so good with his pocket presence and awareness. He feels pressure, moves and shifts to buy time and does not panic. He doesn't make the boneheaded play to hurt the team. Cousins OTOH has very poor pocket presence and awareness. The two fumbles and pick 6 in Kollman's are good examples. He just doesn't make good decisions when under pressure. This is Cousins 8th year? He's been known for a lack of pocket awareness and for making bad plays that hurt his team his entire career. I don't see why we think this will change. He's had good OLs in WAS with good weapons around him. The Vikings need to build the perfect team to win with Cousins. Which comes down to my point, he's part of the problem.

After watching this, it is just that much clearer that the offensive line was just garbage last year. I mean, on how many plays did the tackles just break down completely? On how many plays were the interior OL just bull rushed backwards?

Sure there were breakdowns. But there were a lot of times where the OL did their job and Cousins didn't do his. The first 3rd down of the GB game comes to mind (if memory serves). 3rd down, drops back, has time, holds on the ball too long, gets sacked. Thielen is open down the middle but Kirk doesn't pull the trigger. Next play, punt is blocked and Vikings down 0-7. Opportunities missed like that can be the difference between winning and losing.

Brady is a statue. I seen him in the SB against the Giants, a team that got after him, and he didn't look to have any pocket presence. Yes he looks great against the Jets twice a year. Cousins looked great against them. I'm not taking anything away from Brady but put heat on that statue and he will wilt like they all do. The Rams in the SB let him stand there. Rock him and let him know you will be hit. That's the only chance a team has. And it's not like they have a bullet that will smoke you deep. Crowd the LOS. Let him know your coming. Why anyone would compare Cousins to Brady is ridiculous. He's not Rodgers either. And I think Rodgers is much better than Brady. If I was starting a team I would take Rodgers over Brady. So compare Brady to a player that's close to him.