Vikings vs Dolphins for Wallace?

[J. Kapp 11]

I disagree about Wallace being a better receiver than Harvin. Seems to me Harvin is more dependable and just as capable of making a big play as Wallace. Plus the other factors you mention give Harvin an edge as an overall weapon, which really impresses me about the guy.

Look, I've always loved Percy Harvin, from the first time he stepped on the field as a Viking. I honestly don't think he's a better receiver than Wallace, but maybe that's in the classic sense of a guy who plays outside the numbers. Harvin is a phenomenal weapon, and I love watching him play.

That being said, I have to admit to a bunch of nagging questions when it comes to Percy. The one I start with is this: Is the Vikings offense actually more effective with Harvin in it?

When I analyze Percy's game, I see him as a guy who a) requires a decent number of touches to be effective, and b) needs plays specifically designed to get him the ball in space. My view is that when he's "an option" for the QB, he doesn't seem as effective.

Granted, he's definitely explosive, and you hold your breath when he touches the ball. But sometimes I think Vikings fans see the amazing kick returns and apply that to his skillset as a receiver. What has he actually produced as a receiver? A career YPC south of 12, and it's dropped every year, even though his catches per game have risen. That tells me he isn't quite as effective when he has to play within the context of the team offense. He needs plays designed for the specific purpose of getting him touches. That's why I say he isn't the receiver Wallace is, although I will grant you he's a better player.

So again, my biggest question is this: Are the Vikings really better with him as "the man" at receiver?

And ... is he a bit more threat than reality. Given his reported value on the trade market, I'd say a few other teams wonder the same things.

Bottom line: The Vikes were 5-4 with Percy in the lineup. They were 5-2 . Same team, sans Harvin.

I love Percy. But I just wonder. That's all.

[mondry]

Look, I've always loved Percy Harvin, from the first time he stepped on the field as a Viking. I honestly don't think he's a better receiver than Wallace, but maybe that's in the classic sense of a guy who plays outside the numbers. Harvin is a phenomenal weapon, and I love watching him play.

That being said, I have to admit to a bunch of nagging questions when it comes to Percy. The one I start with is this: Is the Vikings offense actually more effective with Harvin in it?

When I analyze Percy's game, I see him as a guy who a) requires a decent number of touches to be effective, and b) needs plays specifically designed to get him the ball in space. My view is that when he's "an option" for the QB, he doesn't seem as effective.

Granted, he's definitely explosive, and you hold your breath when he touches the ball. But sometimes I think Vikings fans see the amazing kick returns and apply that to his skillset as a receiver. What has he actually produced as a receiver? A career YPC south of 12, and it's dropped every year, even though his catches per game have risen. That tells me he isn't quite as effective when he has to play within the context of the team offense. He needs plays designed for the specific purpose of getting him touches. That's why I say he isn't the receiver Wallace is, although I will grant you he's a better player.

So again, my biggest question is this: Are the Vikings really better with him as "the man" at receiver?

And ... is he a bit more threat than reality. Given his reported value on the trade market, I'd say a few other teams wonder the same things.

Bottom line: The Vikes were 5-4 with Percy in the lineup. They were 5-2 . Same team, sans Harvin.

I love Percy. But I just wonder. That's all.

You bring up some good points, I've talked about some of this stuff in the other percy harvin thread as well but my take is that it's more of a coaching problem (offensive cordinator problem?) in that they've pigeon holed Harvin into the role you mention. In some sense, I think it's much worse than the Randy Ratio ever was.

In that other thread I posted about 10 clips showing off Harvin as a WR, it's worth checking out if you have doubts about his ability at WR.

The more and more I think about it though the more and more we SHOULD trade Harvin if we can. Either you're right in that he's not a good option at WR or I might be and the coaches are too enamored by what he can do after the catch and force feed the ball to him on sub 5 yard plays. Neither is a great option for us, hence the trade him if we can.

I totally agree though that in the current state, force feeding both Peterson AND Harvin really makes our offense pretty easy to figure out. It's kinda like how our running game didn't decline THAT much when Peterson got hurt last year. Does that mean Peterson sucks? No, not really, it's just when we want to run the ball with him and the other team knows it, they can use that to their advantage to hinder our running game. Toby isn't as big of a threat so you slack off a little or focus more on other threats and all of a sudden he has a decent game. I think that's the more likely reason we seemed to do alright with Harvin gone. Wright came in as kind of an unknown and made a few splash plays that probably caught people off guard.

[losperros]

So again, my biggest question is this: Are the Vikings really better with him as "the man" at receiver?

There is no doubt in my mind that the answer is yes. The Vikings offense definitely has another major weapon to utilize any time Harvin is on the field. I appreciate your comments but I really don't see any debate here. Harvin is a heartbeat away from a TD any time he touches the ball.

Bottom line: The Vikes were 5-4 with Percy in the lineup. They were 5-2 . Same team, sans Harvin.

And they just might have been 6-1 or even 7-0 with Harvin. I think the notion the Vikings were better without Harvin is a myth. In some cases (not yours), it's even wishful thinking by those that for whatever reason want Harvin off the team. More credit should be given to Frazier for keeping the team under control and getting them prepped for the games. Even then, I actually thought Harvin's presence was missed during the final games.

Here's my take. AD really put the pedal to the metal during the last half of the season. If Harvin had been there, it would have added even more explosiveness to the offense and just maybe would have meant more points, though possibly less carries by AD. But I don't care about the records as much as the W/L record. Personally, I wish both Harvin and Ponder could have played with AD in the playoff game against GB. I think the Vikings would have had a better all-around offensive showing.

[HornedMessiah]

Look, I've always loved Percy Harvin, from the first time he stepped on the field as a Viking. I honestly don't think he's a better receiver than Wallace, but maybe that's in the classic sense of a guy who plays outside the numbers. Harvin is a phenomenal weapon, and I love watching him play....

...I love Percy. But I just wonder. That's all.

Well said, great post.

Maybe having an offense that features Adrian Peterson is just incompatible with one that also features Harvin. Or maybe the Vikings just can't figure out how to make it work. As it has been said 1,000,000 times already, Percy is a unique talent and to fully utilize his special skill set you have to have a unique approach. That approach might not be the best match with an offense that has the best RB in the game. You almost need to build the entire offense around Harvin, and having two guys like that on a team obviously makes it tough.

Vikes interest in Wallace doesn't surprise me. For years they've wanted a field stretching WR who can take some pressure off Peterson and also make defenses pay for going all-out to stop him. I don't think he'll be Berrian 2.0, but he's also not going to be a top 5 elite WR either.

[J. Kapp 11]

There is no doubt in my mind that the answer is yes. The Vikings offense definitely has another major weapon to utilize any time Harvin is on the field. I appreciate your comments but I really don't see any debate here. Harvin is a heartbeat away from a TD any time he touches the ball.

See, that's just it.

He's a heartbeat away. No doubt. But how many times has that potential actually translated into TDs?

That being said, I don't think it's his fault. Look at our receiving corps outside of Harvin since 2010. No outside threats at all. Did anybody actually respect Michael Jenkins or the other list of nobodies we trotted out there? Of course not, so teams have been able to use single coverage on everybody else and pay more attention to Percy.

My feeling is that the Vikings are better off with Harvin, but not if they're going to make him the No. 1 receiver. He's just not an outside-the-numbers guy. He should be playing in the slot full-time, where he can use his quickness and toughness, much like he did during his rookie year when Rice was on the team. Opponents had to focus on Rice, so that left seams for Percy. He's good on bubble screens, but he's much more of a big-play threat when he catches the ball over the middle on intermediate routes. Again, more like he did in 2009 when Rice was here.

Couple Harvin with a true No. 1, and I have a feeling a lot more of those "heartbeat away" scenarios would turn into actual touchdowns.

[S197]

I've read a lot in this post about how horrible of a mistake it would be to let Harvin walk while ending up with Wallace. As much as the Vikings need help at WR, I think people overestimate Harvin's value to the team.

This is a WR that has never broken 1,000 yard receiving in a year. A player who was out while the Vikings took down teams during the toughest part of their schedule.

Yes, you'd love to keep a player with the kind of skillset that he has ... but is he so detrimental to the team that replacing him with Wallace would be that big of a deal? Heck, replacing him with Wright wasn't all that big of a deal in terms of wins and losses.

I'm not so sure that Wallace / Wright / Rookie isn't a better combination Harvin / Wright / Rookie.

Cliff, I have to disagree with you here. The Vikings did just fine in terms of wins and losses without Harvin, that's without debate. However, the Vikings success was largely dependent upon this year's MVP. An MVP that saw his carries limited in the first four games and one who by his own admission did not start off at 100%. The team wasn't better down the stretch because Wright and Harvin are interchangeable, the team was better because AD was rushing for 200+ yards per game like it was an everyday routine.

Lets go back to the game at Lambeau, a game that was very winnable by the Vikings. They didn't have a single reception by a wide receiver until well into the 4th quarter. Clearly, Harvin would have helped them in that game. The only reason the Vikings were even in it was because of AD. I know you're not knocking Harvin but I think there's a much wider gap between a guy like Wright and Harvin than you might think.

Personally, I'd pay Harvin and keep my draft pick. He's a proven commodity in this offense. Wallace is a much bigger unknown.

[Mothman]

Maybe having an offense that features Adrian Peterson is just incompatible with one that also features Harvin. Or maybe the Vikings just can't figure out how to make it work.

It seems to me that it already works as long as the other components of the offense do their jobs well. Unless Harvin has such an ego that he can't co-exist in an offense where he isn't the star player (and I don't believe that's the case) I think the Vikings offense can work just fine with both Peterson and Harvin involved.

As it has been said 1,000,000 times already, Percy is a unique talent and to fully utilize his special skill set you have to have a unique approach. That approach might not be the best match with an offense that has the best RB in the game. You almost need to build the entire offense around Harvin, and having two guys like that on a team obviously makes it tough.

My question is why would they almost have to build the entire offense around Harvin? They already seem to take good advantage of his unique skill set and he actually seems like a great match for an offense that has the best RB in the game. I think they just need a few more pieces to really make it soar.

Vikes interest in Wallace doesn't surprise me. For years they've wanted a field stretching WR who can take some pressure off Peterson and also make defenses pay for going all-out to stop him. I don't think he'll be Berrian 2.0, but he's also not going to be a top 5 elite WR either.

Agreed. If he could just be as good as he was during his best seasons in Pittsburgh, that would be enough.

[Superfreak84]

lol remember when that one guy made a thread about the Vikings having interest in Mike Wallace? And then he was banned for doing so.

[saint33]

lol remember when that one guy made a thread about the Vikings having interest in Mike Wallace? And then he was banned for doing so.

he was banned because he was trolling. His "source" was the same made up "source" the guy who said the Vikings were going to draft RG3 last year used. John Skrotem or something along those lines.

[losperros]

[See, that's just it.

He's a heartbeat away. No doubt. But how many times has that potential actually translated into TDs?

That being said, I don't think it's his fault. Look at our receiving corps outside of Harvin since 2010. No outside threats at all. Did anybody actually respect Michael Jenkins or the other list of nobodies we trotted out there? Of course not, so teams have been able to use single coverage on everybody else and pay more attention to Percy.

My feeling is that the Vikings are better off with Harvin, but not if they're going to make him the No. 1 receiver. He's just not an outside-the-numbers guy. He should be playing in the slot full-time, where he can use his quickness and toughness, much like he did during his rookie year when Rice was on the team. Opponents had to focus on Rice, so that left seams for Percy. He's good on bubble screens, but he's much more of a big-play threat when he catches the ball over the middle on intermediate routes. Again, more like he did in 2009 when Rice was here.

Couple Harvin with a true No. 1, and I have a feeling a lot more of those "heartbeat away" scenarios would turn into actual touchdowns.

Oops! I got you now but I think I misunderstood your first post. Sorry.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying. Even if the Vikings retain Harvin, they need a lot of extra help in the WR corps and that includes outside WR help. And yes, I believe Harvin is a slot receiver/RB hybrid who is a dangerous returner. But he's not a #1 WR or even a consistent outside WR. I also agree about your comments regarding Rice's presence on the field opening up lanes for Harvin.

OTOH, I would like to see the Vikings utilize Jarius Wright as an outside WR a bit more, despite his size. He did a heck of a job as an outside threat for the Razorbacks when they used him that way, plus he's a legitimate deep threat. That said, the Vikings still need a #1 WR and perhaps another outside WR as well.

[mondry]

See, that's just it.

He's a heartbeat away. No doubt. But how many times has that potential actually translated into TDs?

That being said, I don't think it's his fault. Look at our receiving corps outside of Harvin since 2010. No outside threats at all. Did anybody actually respect Michael Jenkins or the other list of nobodies we trotted out there? Of course not, so teams have been able to use single coverage on everybody else and pay more attention to Percy.

My feeling is that the Vikings are better off with Harvin, but not if they're going to make him the No. 1 receiver. He's just not an outside-the-numbers guy. He should be playing in the slot full-time, where he can use his quickness and toughness, much like he did during his rookie year when Rice was on the team. Opponents had to focus on Rice, so that left seams for Percy. He's good on bubble screens, but he's much more of a big-play threat when he catches the ball over the middle on intermediate routes. Again, more like he did in 2009 when Rice was here.

Couple Harvin with a true No. 1, and I have a feeling a lot more of those "heartbeat away" scenarios would turn into actual touchdowns.

It's interesting because a lot of the clips I posted of Harvin were from 2009 and I correlated it to brett favre and what not but I didn't actually think about sydney rice's impact so you may very well be on to something.

Rice wasn't a burner though, he wasn't much of a deep threat at all but he was the typical #1 type WR you have to respect, probably even double cover on every play. In that sense Wallace isn't that type of player, but he still probably warrants double coverage, or a safety always peeking over to his side so maybe it could still work? The problem there is that I don't think Wallace + Harvin can co-exist, and if it can, it's probably only for one year anyway, the salaries just won't allow it.

It's pretty obvious but we should focus on drafting a WR who is capable of drawing that attention, since that's all that really matters, who cares if he's a deep threat or a possession guy as long as you can't defend him with 1 on 1 coverage and I agree with you for sure that a player like that will definitely open things up for Harvin and even AD in that sense.

[Mothman]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying. Even if the Vikings retain Harvin, they need a lot of extra help in the WR corps and that includes outside WR help. And yes, I believe Harvin is a slot receiver/RB hybrid who is a dangerous returner. But he's not a #1 WR or even a consistent outside WR. I also agree about your comments regarding Rice's presence on the field opening up lanes for Harvin.

OTOH, I would like to see the Vikings utilize Jarius Wright as an outside WR a bit more, despite his size. He did a heck of a job as an outside threat for the Razorbacks when they used him that way, plus he's a legitimate deep threat. That said, the Vikings still need a #1 WR and perhaps another outside WR as well.

I agree that Wright can play outside. I see no reason why he can't be an effective flanker for the Vikes.

Speaking of flankers... I've started referring to the specific WR positions more when discussing this subject. I'm finding it useful to avoid less precise terms like "#1 receiver" because I think what the Vikings really need most is a split end. Harvin is perfect for the slot and while I wouldn't say Wright is perfect player to play the flanker position, I certainly think he can do it. On the other hand, I don't think he's a great fit for the split end position, which requires the WR to line up on the line and consequently, also tends to require a more physical receiver.

[saint33]

Rice wasn't a deep threat? He was one of the, if not THE, best deep threat in the game in 2009

[losperros]

I agree that Wright can play outside. I see no reason why he can't be an effective flanker for the Vikes.

Speaking of flankers... I've started referring to the specific WR positions more when discussing this subject. I'm finding it useful to avoid less precise terms like "#1 receiver" because I think what the Vikings really need most is a split end. Harvin is perfect for the slot and while I wouldn't say Wright is perfect player to play the flanker position, I certainly think he can do it. On the other hand, I don't think he's a great fit for the split end position, which requires the WR to line up on the line and consequently, also tends to require a more physical receiver.

I think I may get more specific about it too. You and Kapp are right about the need for someone on the outside. I believe that is the first and foremost need among the WRs, and I believe that's what Spielman is looking for. You know, on that note, maybe the "#1 WR" term really should be replaced by anyone who is the "#1 receiver" and becomes the go-to guy, whether it's a wide out, slot WR, or even TE. Of course, some of that depends on schemes, or who's playing QB, etc.

Regarding Wright, I feel he shouldn't be limited to the slot position because he can play split wide. I'm not worried about it all that much since it seemed as if the Vikings were figuring out that part of Wright's game, especially the downfield receiver part, the more they played him. Frazier even said he saw no reason why Harvin and Wright couldn't be on the field at the same time.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Looks like Demi is going to be one happy guy, PH prolly will ask too much, and someone other then the Vikes know that hes worth it, esp. a team with a real QB. Wallace wants to play where its warm, and it aint warm here. No way Spielman would have gotten him anyways. So now we lose our best WR. But we all know Wright is better then Ph anyways, wright? lol