Vikings vs Dolphins for Wallace?

[PacificNorseWest]

If we by chance bought Wallace, then Harvin is on the way out, in all likelihood. The we probably take 2 more WR's in this years draft, either way.

Then it's probably a mistake because they won't find someone too comparable to Percy at pick 23 and with Wallace's skillset, it plays perfectly with someone like Percy who is much more versatile. We'll see I guess.

[MrPurplenGold]

I'm on the fence about Wallace too. However, I think Prisco does bring up some decent points about why a guy like Wallace would be more useful than Jennings. I look at Wallace as being what the Vikings had hoped Jerome Simpson would be. That said, would that also include the disappointments? That's what concerns me.

NOTE: The following is an editorial opinion by me and does not necessarily reflect the views of the rest of this board:

If the Vikings sign Wallace and dump Harvin, my take is there would be no upside. The difference in overall talent between the two would leave a huge gap. I believe it would be madness on the part of the Vikings and I hope it doesn't happen. And no, I don't think Keenan Allen could fill the void either, not by a long, long shot. If the Vikings draft Allen, you'll find out what I mean. I really like Jarius Wright but Harvin can do some things that Wright can't. I'd much rather have Harvin, Wallace, Wright, and a WR from the draft as the team's WRs over Wallace, Wright, Allen, and whoever.

I agree with Mothman on this one. I think you don't look at what the differences are between Wallace and Harvin, but the overall situation at WR and team in general. Would the WR corps be better with let's say Harvin, Allen and Jarius Wright/later round WR/Second tier WR than it would be with Wallace, Allen and Wright AND an additional draft pick (maybe a late first or high second round pick), I don't think it would. Harvin is a great talent, but if you can make the overall team better by trading him, why not at least entertain the idea.

[Mothman]

I'm on the fence about Wallace too. However, I think Prisco does bring up some decent points about why a guy like Wallace would be more useful than Jennings. I look at Wallace as being what the Vikings had hoped Jerome Simpson would be. That said, would that also include the disappointments? That's what concerns me.

It's an understandable concern and I imagine it will concern any team that considers signing Wallace. That said, Prisco's absolutely right about the value of speed on offense and I know I'm preaching to the converted on that point.

NOTE: The following is an editorial opinion by me and does not necessarily reflect the views of the rest of this board:

If the Vikings sign Wallace and dump Harvin, my take is there would be no upside. The difference in overall talent between the two would leave a huge gap. I believe it would be madness on the part of the Vikings and I hope it doesn't happen. And no, I don't think Keenan Allen could fill the void either, not by a long, long shot. If the Vikings draft Allen, you'll find out what I mean. I really like Jarius Wright but Harvin can do some things that Wright can't. I'd much rather have Harvin, Wallace, Wright, and a WR from the draft as the team's WRs over Wallace, Wright, Allen, and whoever.

I think anybody would but I doubt that's practical. I suspect the Vikings will choose between Harvin or an expensive free agent WR but won't sign both. However, my point wasn't that Allen or Wallace would fill the void left by Harvin (who is obviously a unique and extremely talented player) but rather that it's possible for the Vikings to trade Harvin and still come out of the offseason with an overall upgrade to their WR corps, even though they'd be missing a terrific player.

If the Vikings move Harvin (which I still doubt will happen) I'm guessing it will indicate an effort to make the best of a bad situation and will also indicate that they couldn't settle whatever differences may exist between Harvin and the team. I see no other reason for it unless Harvin simply wants way too much money. If he puts them in a "must trade" position, it will be unfortunate since the Vikings have made it pretty clear that they want to draft, develop and keep talent and they've also made it clear that they want to keep Harvin.

[mansquatch]

I know PH is under contract, I bring it up because I do not think Spielman is going to carry two $55MM contracts at WR. If they sign Wallace it is quite likely it means they plan to move Harvin.

Here is another issue with the Wallace signing: Isn’t Simpson a poor man’s Wallace? He has height and speed, can run the deep route, and won’t cost $55MM to resign. I know folks will drag on him (looking at you Jim!!!) but from a cap standpoint I would argue that PH + JS is a much better scenario than MW and ???.

I know they say they need a speed guy, but I think they have that in Wright and PH. They need a Sidney Rice type guy who can go up and make a play on the ball. They’ve got speedsters and the best slot guy in the game. They don’t have a guy who can make the grab when the QB throws it a tad off the mark and that is what they need.

I wobble on this but I think we are going to address WR during day 1 of the draft.

[Cliff]

I've read a lot in this post about how horrible of a mistake it would be to let Harvin walk while ending up with Wallace. As much as the Vikings need help at WR, I think people overestimate Harvin's value to the team.

This is a WR that has never broken 1,000 yard receiving in a year. A player who was out while the Vikings took down teams during the toughest part of their schedule.

Yes, you'd love to keep a player with the kind of skillset that he has ... but is he so detrimental to the team that replacing him with Wallace would be that big of a deal? Heck, replacing him with Wright wasn't all that big of a deal in terms of wins and losses.

I'm not so sure that Wallace / Wright / Rookie isn't a better combination Harvin / Wright / Rookie.

[smoothoperator]

lets not forget how much we were going to give garcon or jackson. wallace should not cost any more than either of those two, this would be a great move for the team and would make our offense explosive on another level. i am all for it.

[smoothoperator]

yea, but garcon didnt even play half the season, hes quite injury prone, just like greg jennings, who i think would be a terrible fit for the vikes. we should have gotten VJ, but you cant win em all and we have to do something. a pure speed wr would open up the running game, slot game and TE's.

[Mothman]

I know PH is under contract, I bring it up because I do not think Spielman is going to carry two $55MM contracts at WR. If they sign Wallace it is quite likely it means they plan to move Harvin.

Here is another issue with the Wallace signing: Isn’t Simpson a poor man’s Wallace? He has height and speed, can run the deep route, and won’t cost $55MM to resign. I know folks will drag on him (looking at you Jim!!!) but from a cap standpoint I would argue that PH + JS is a much better scenario than MW and ???.

Maybe... but I doubt it's purely a cap question and neither scenario is likely to be cap-unfriendly. Simpson is a very poor man's version of Wallace. His best season only compares favorably to Wallace's worst and his other seasons are more like last season (in other words, barely worth mentioning).

BTW, I had to chuckle at you rightly calling me out for being tough on Simpson. I just can't help it. He was thoroughly disappointing in 2012.

I've read a lot in this post about how horrible of a mistake it would be to let Harvin walk while ending up with Wallace. As much as the Vikings need help at WR, I think people overestimate Harvin's value to the team.

This is a WR that has never broken 1,000 yard receiving in a year. A player who was out while the Vikings took down teams during the toughest part of their schedule.

Yes, you'd love to keep a player with the kind of skillset that he has ... but is he so detrimental to the team that replacing him with Wallace would be that big of a deal? Heck, replacing him with Wright wasn't all that big of a deal in terms of wins and losses.

I'm not so sure that Wallace / Wright / Rookie isn't a better combination Harvin / Wright / Rookie.

Well said, Cliff, and that's exactly my point. Harvin's a very beneficial player to the Vikings but not a completely irreplaceable one. It would be preferable if they could hang onto him because he's a genuine playmaker.

It's worth pointing out that even though Harvin has never been a 1000 yard receiver for the Vikings, he came close in 2011 and produced well over 1000 yards of offense that season (960 receiving + 345 rushing). He's obviously a very valuable kickoff returner as well.

[Mothman]

For the people talking about drafting Allen, I doubt that happens now, as he wont even participate in his pro day. So he is most likely to slip pretty far in the draft. No pro day and no Combine due to lingering injury. just wanted to fill everyone in.

Thanks for the info. It prompted me to look for more and I learned that he's going to hold a workout on April 9th. As long as he's healed by then and does a good job, his draft position won't necessarily suffer. I think what could really make him slide is if he didn't work out or check out as healthy at all prior to the draft.

It could be good for the Vikes if he slips.

More info:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog ... ut-april-9

[Mothman]

It could be good for the vikes, but do we really want someone that has a lingering injury to be our top pick in the draft?

I meant it could be good for the Vikes if he slips but is healthy. If he still hasn't recovered, that would be a different story...

[Mothman]

Oh my apologies. I misunderstood

No problem.

[losperros]

Well said, Cliff, and that's exactly my point. Harvin's a very beneficial player to the Vikings but not a completely irreplaceable one. It would be preferable if they could hang onto him because he's a genuine playmaker.

It's worth pointing out that even though Harvin has never been a 1000 yard receiver for the Vikings, he came close in 2011 and produced well over 1000 yards of offense that season (960 receiving + 345 rushing). He's obviously a very valuable kickoff returner as well.

Well said, Jim. You just inadvertently refuted Cliff's post. Harvin isn't a typical WR in that he's an offensive machine who can score during a game as a WR, RB, and returner.

OTOH, is Harvin irreplaceable? Maybe nobody is. But can Harvin's signature style and his contribution to the offense be so easily replaced? I seriously doubt that. Should the Vikings be foolish enough to think that they can dump Harvin and still *greatly improve* (which is what's needed) the WR corps by adding Wallace and someone like Keenan Allen, then expect another year of hit and miss passing from Ponder and the WRs.

Also, the myth that the Vikings were a better team without Harvin really needs to be put to rest. Look at what Harvin did for them while he was playing. The team would have been better with Harvin during the last four games and, as I said before, I think the Vikings might have won in the playoffs had a healthy Harvin and Ponder been playing with AD during the game.

[losperros]

Wallace is much much MUCH faster than Simpson. In terms of athleticism catching the ball and fighting for it, it may be equal. But Wallace's speed is one of the reason why he's a wanted commodity. I never really understood why Simpson would be considered a deep threat because he just doesn't have the speed to beat CB's down the field.

It really depends on what PH wants. Would PH agree to a 5 year 55 mill contract like Wallace? If so, I'd rather sign Harvin. If not, if he wants over 13 a year, forget about it.

I disagree. Simpson has excellent speed and athleticism, and he's certainly a downfield threat when healthy. What he lacks is the fundamentals that go along with that.

Unfortunately, the same criticism can occasionally be said for Wallace. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see the Vikings sign Wallace, because I'd have no real problem with that. I also think he's better than Simpson. But Wallace is no replacement for Harvin. I'd be happy if the Vikings re-sign Harvin and sign Wallace too. Even then, I think the Vikings still need to draft one of the better WRs as well.

[Mothman]

Well said, Jim. You just inadvertently refuted Cliff's post. Harvin isn't a typical WR in that he's an offensive machine who can score during a game as a WR, RB, and returner. Dismissing him as someone who can replaced by Wallace simply doesn't make sense.

LOL! I wasn't trying to inadvertantly refute what he wrote but as you know, I have a"special" talent for that sort of thing. I actually agree with him that the Vikings could conceivably trade Harvin and end up with a better overall situation at WR. I just thought it was important to point out that Harvin provides more offense than is indicated by his receiving numbers alone.

I don't think the question before the Vikings is really can Wallace (or Jennings, a rookie, etc.) replace Harvin without anything being lost in the process. Harvin's a uniquely talented player so something would be lost. For the Vikings, I believe it comes down to overall production from their receivers and their offense. It might be impossible to find another player with Harvin's skill set and talent but replacing his production is another matter. It might have to be distributed among several different players but I think it could be done. Honestly, I think the toughest thing to replace might be his return ability and I don't say that to diminish what he can do as a slot receiver or RB, merely because I think he's one of the top 2 or 3 returners in the league.

OTOH, is Harvin irreplaceable? Maybe nobody is. But can Harvin's signature style and his contribution to the offense be so easily replaced? I seriously doubt that. Should the Vikings be foolish enough to think that they can dump Harvin and still *greatly improve* (which is what's needed) the WR corps by adding Wallace and someone like Keenan Allen, then expect another year of hit and miss passing from Ponder and the WRs.

If Harvin's traded, I really don't believe it will have anything to do with being foolish, Craig, do you? I realize we can't blindly trust anything team representatives say but you've read what Frazier and Spielman have to say on this subject. I honestly think they'd like him to remain a Viking and I get the impression you do too. It seems to me that If he's traded, it's going to be because he doesn't want to be a Viking. Maybe it will be due to differences about football matters or maybe it will be because he just wants more money than they're willing to pay him but I really don't get the impression the Vikings want to part ways with Harvin. If they do it, I'm betting it will be because they believe they have to part ways with him. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Frankly, if they could make it work cap-wise, I'd love to see the Vikings sign Wallace, extend Harvin's contract and draft someone like Keenan Allen. In one offseason, they could conceivably transform their WR corps into one of the league's most dangerous and give Ponder all the weapons he could ask for to succeed. It would be a BIG investment in one position and it's probably not practical in cap terms but it's fun to dream.

Also, the myth that the Vikings were a better team without Harvin really needs to be put to rest. Look at what Harvin did for them while he was playing. The team would have been better with Harvin during the last four games and, as I said before, I think the Vikings might have won in the playoffs had a healthy Harvin and Ponder been playing with AD during the game.

We're on the same page there. The Vikings proved they could win without Harvin but I have no doubt they're a better team with him on the field.

[Demi]

Signing Wallace and Harvin means you'd be tying up 25+ mll a year on two WR's ….that's risky if you can't find cheap talent in the draft for other positions.

Especially when you only have 17.5M in space.