Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive system

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Mothman
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Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive system

Post by Mothman »

This is a good read:

Tom Powers: Maybe Vikings coach Mike Zimmer should dumb down his defensive system
One of Mike Zimmer's most endearing traits is his postgame demeanor after a loss. It's almost as if he switches from coach to fan and is just as angry with those knuckleheads as all the Joe Six-Packs sitting at home and groaning.
Unfortunately, the coil inside Zimmer is being ratcheted tighter and tighter. I'm afraid that one day at Winter Park there is going to be a loud bang and tiny pieces of Zim will be scattered across Eden Prairie, Edina and perhaps as far north as Maple Grove.
The Vikings' main problem seems obvious. Remember during the summer when Zimmer and his coordinators talked about how the players were taking to the new system like, oh, an offensive lineman to a jelly doughnut? That was an overly optimistic view. Perhaps that was what they wanted to see and believe.

The fact is that many of the players still are lost when it comes to the new way of doing things. On defense, in particular, some guys have no idea where they should be in certain situations. Opposing running backs are breezing through empty lanes. There have been at least two colossal mess-ups per game in the secondary. The Vikings lead the league in allowing wide-open, oh-my-God touchdown passes.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by Just Me »

Interesting read. This caught my eye:
During OTAs and training camp, the coaches regularly talked about how they were firing new concepts at players and it was a lot to absorb. It's now clear that some have not absorbed it. At least, not enough of it. Never have so many players been in the wrong places at the wrong times. So perhaps they need a bit less to think about.
I don't think this is a good suggestion. The "wide swings" we have been seeing are 'growing pains.' Basically we have fielded 11 new players this year. I realize we haven't literally done this (darn close with 8 new starters, but I digress), but when we implemented a new system, everyone is a "rookie" on Zimmer's defense. I think part of the reason Zimmer is frustrated is that he KNOWS his defense will work, and if guys aren't executing it properly, there are going to be issues. Anything worthwhile takes some effort, and the defense is just going to need to work and accept the fact there will be 'growing pains.' I really see us becoming a top 10 defense in the next couple of years.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by mansquatch »

I think I'll trust in Mike Zimmer's judgement of what his players can handle vs. Tom Power's lofty view from the his PC.

Power's is advocating that we play a simpler defense since essentially our starters are too stupid to grasp the more advanced concepts that Zimmer wants them to implement. How wonderfully modern, do they get a participation reward for last Thursday too? Let me articulate a different view: You either keep up or we find someone who can. The NFL athlete is a professional and is highly compensated to do what he does. The idea that a coach with a proven defensive track record as established as Zimmer's should dumb it down is laughable. One word: Competition.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by maembe »

We've had some successes defensively this season, despite playing the number 1 offense, the number 3 offense, and the number 8 offense in the league. The two teams we've played below that are the Packers and Patriots, both of whom I would guess will finish in the top 10, possibly top 5 for the Packers.

We've also had quite a few botched plays/assignments. I think that's fine, especially in the beginning of Zim's first season, as long as we're building toward something. Last season was the worst defensive play I've ever seen. At least we're starting to look like we belong on the same field as the teams we're playing.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by vikesfan87 »

A lot of teams that are implementing a new defensive system are going to struggle. I don't see the point of dumbing down the defensive system because if we are to assume that many of the pieces on defense are already in place they're going to have to learn eventually aren't they? Better to get the growing pains out of the way first.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by losperros »

vikesfan87 wrote:A lot of teams that are implementing a new defensive system are going to struggle. I don't see the point of dumbing down the defensive system because if we are to assume that many of the pieces on defense are already in place they're going to have to learn eventually aren't they? Better to get the growing pains out of the way first.

Exactly. Let the players gradually rise to the level of the system. Don't mute the system by dumbing it down to a lower level.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by Mothman »

I guess it's my week to be a contrarian. IF the reason we're seeing so many serious breakdowns is actually due to confusion and players are "lost' in trying to absorb the system, I see merit in Powers' suggestion. Maybe simplifying things a little, giving the players less to absorb and having them master the defense incrementally, makes some sense. I don't think Zimmer should just permanently compromise his approach but sometimes, if people are overwhelmed, it's helpful to give them information in smaller doses.

I'm honestly not familiar enough with what the Vikes are doing to know whether that approach is possible but logically, it sounds possible. It's just another way to achieve the desired end result.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by Leafman »

losperros wrote: Exactly. Let the players gradually rise to the level of the system. Don't mute the system by dumbing it down to a lower level.
Agree with this. Let the relative complexity of the system serve as a filter for the players that "get it" and provide long-term upside to the unit and those that need to be jettisoned after the season or as part of training camp cuts next year. We're not contending for the Super Bowl this year, so let's start sorting out the guys who can take us there in the years to follow.

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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by mondry »

losperros wrote:
Exactly. Let the players gradually rise to the level of the system. Don't mute the system by dumbing it down to a lower level.
Yeah, this is exactly like saying we need to force field patterson on more gimmick plays rather than focus on running Turner's offensive scheme properly. In the short term it might help very slightly but doesn't align with the long term goals of the team which should be #1 at all costs since we're probably not winning the superbowl this year.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by Mothman »

mondry wrote:Yeah, this is exactly like saying we need to force field patterson on more gimmick plays rather than focus on running Turner's offensive scheme properly. In the short term it might help very slightly but doesn't align with the long term goals of the team which should be #1 at all costs since we're probably not winning the superbowl this year.
Sweeps and screens are gimmick plays?
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by The Breeze »

I think being diverse on both sides of the ball is a boon, ultimately. Unfortunately both systems are new and it's just going to take some time before the base template is second nature.
Doesn't make any sense to dumb it down to me...nor does it make sense to stray too far from the base model on either side of the ball yet.

It's early...Ponder clearly had issues finding anyone last week not just Patterson.
Turner had a whole system set up believing that AD an Rudolph would be the focal points of opposing defenses. How and what to change is maybe not that easy to diagnose.
How much pressure is there to win this year versus finding out what you actually have going forward that fits what you are trying to build?
Seems to me that if IceWater is not getting the ball to CP84 and the offense is still struggling then it's time to be concerned.

Can anyone here honestly suggest that they were pleased with Matt Cassel?

The season starts next week, IMO, and the Vikes are a game out with 12 to play.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by Just Me »

Mothman wrote:I guess it's my week to be a contrarian. IF the reason we're seeing so many serious breakdowns is actually due to confusion and players are "lost' in trying to absorb the system, I see merit in Powers' suggestion. Maybe simplifying things a little, giving the players a less to absorb and having them master the defense incrementally, makes some sense. I don't think Zimmer should just permanently compromise his system approach but sometimes, if people are overwhelmed, it's helpful to give them information in smaller doses.

I'm honestly not familiar enough with what the Vikes are doing to know whether that approach is possible but logically, it sounds possible. It's just another way to achieve the desired end result.
Shoot, none of know, which is why speculation is so much fun! :)

But, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that it is possible to 'water the system down' and stipulate by doing so, you'll be less effective in defense but you might compensate for that 'lesser defense' due to the fact there will be lesser 'blown' plays where the opposing offense just walks in and scores. As a purely "made-up" factor, lets say we can do that this year and the defense is more effective in the short term.

What the real question is: Can the defense reach (in year 3 or 4) a level of competency that Zimmer envisioned earlier (say year 2 or 3) if we 'dumb it down'? We, in essence, sacrifice some developmental time for increased efficiency in the short term. I'm still not sure I support that particular approach because I draw a parallel in martial arts. When one first learns a particular martial art, he/she must learn body movements that are totally foreign to him/her, and frankly make him/her a worse fighter for a period of time. The payoff (allegedly) is at the end of the 'transition' where the person's "new method" of fighting has become more instinctive but contains (at least in theory) a better response to physical threat(s). Bruce Lee recognized this situation and his rank structure in Jeet Kune Do was reflective of it. A Beginner and an Instructor wore identical patches to reflect their rank. The theory was both were 'instinctive fighters,' just one (hopefully the instructor :wink: ) had been practicing enough that the 'new' moves were instinctive for him/her again.

The problem is: If you just don't 'bite the bullet' and accept the fact that (in the short term) you are going to be less effective, I'm not sure you'll ever really embrace the 'new way' of doing things. IF the new way is better, you'll always be a little less effective than you otherwise would be since in year 3, you would only be as effective as what originally was envisioned in year 2. You'll maintain that 'behind the curve' development throughout your career as a defensive player.

The position you're taking isn't necessarily 'incorrect' as I could make the counter-argument that even in martial arts, one doesn't teach advanced techniques to neophytes until they've had a chance to incrementally learn how to 'build up' to these unfamiliar techniques. The distinction I'm drawing is that these are already professional football players and therefore are akin to black belts. You might have a black belt in one martial art cross-train in another martial art, and that person wouldn't be expected to need to learn at the same, slow incremental pace that a "true beginner" would need to do. In fact, that person (at least within the style of the new discipline) would be expected to abandon his previous knowledge (that conflicts with the new style) during class, even though he might be more effective incorporating what he is 'comfortable with' in the 'new defense.' That stunts his growth in the new style as he never really embraces the underlying principles that make the style effective.

While this (changing) is very hard to do initially, as you've trained to make that previous response somewhat instinctive, one ultimately becomes effective in the 'new style,' and both responses seem 'natural,' it just becomes a matter of 'choice.' If you never 'fully embrace' the new, there is a tendency to 'fall back' on what is familiar and comfortable. Also, I think the message it might send is that the players aren't 'smart enough' if you had to go with smaller doses.

Since it's all speculation anyway, I couldn't say my take has any more validity that yours, but I just think we'd be better off in the 'long run' to live with the up-and-down defense in the short term for the greater (hopefully) benefits in the long term.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by fiestavike »

Mothman wrote:I guess it's my week to be a contrarian. IF the reason we're seeing so many serious breakdowns is actually due to confusion and players are "lost' in trying to absorb the system, I see merit in Powers' suggestion. Maybe simplifying things a little, giving the players less to absorb and having them master the defense incrementally, makes some sense. I don't think Zimmer should just permanently compromise his approach but sometimes, if people are overwhelmed, it's helpful to give them information in smaller doses.

I'm honestly not familiar enough with what the Vikes are doing to know whether that approach is possible but logically, it sounds possible. It's just another way to achieve the desired end result.
Similar to the other thread where we've been talking offense, I see this partially as a short term vs long term question. In the short term a blown coverage that leads to an easy TD is bad, but I think it can be beneficial in the long run. First of all, it highlights an error in technicolor. Its better than the type of confusion that slows a guy down a step but doesn't necessarily expose that he is totally confused about his assignment. As such, it can be addressed, questions asked and answered, and the team moves forward better off than they were before. If they player still doesn't get it and keeps making the same mistakes, you find someone else to take that role, and the team moves forward better off than they were before. I see it as part of a process, and I'm okay with a mistake here or there.

Actually, I don't really mind a mistake here or there compared to the absolutely inept defending we saw over the last couple years from a secondary that would just allow teams to complete endless streams of passes in front of them until they found a TE in the back of the endzone. That was historically bad and quite painful.
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by mondry »

Just Me wrote: Shoot, none of know, which is why speculation is so much fun! :)

But, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that it is possible to 'water the system down' and stipulate by doing so, you'll be less effective in defense but you might compensate for that 'lesser defense' due to the fact there will be lesser 'blown' plays where the opposing offense just walks in and scores. As a purely "made-up" factor, lets say we can do that this year and the defense is more effective in the short term.

What the real question is: Can the defense reach (in year 3 or 4) a level of competency that Zimmer envisioned earlier (say year 2 or 3) if we 'dumb it down'? We, in essence, sacrifice some developmental time for increased efficiency in the short term. I'm still not sure I support that particular approach because I draw a parallel in martial arts. When one first learns a particular martial art, he/she must learn body movements that are totally foreign to him/her, and frankly make him/her a worse fighter for a period of time. The payoff (allegedly) is at the end of the 'transition' where the person's "new method" of fighting has become more instinctive but contains (at least in theory) a better response to physical threat(s). Bruce Lee recognized this situation and his rank structure in Jeet Kune Do was reflective of it. A Beginner and an Instructor wore identical patches to reflect their rank. The theory was both were 'instinctive fighters,' just one (hopefully the instructor :wink: ) had been practicing enough that the 'new' moves were instinctive for him/her again.

The problem is: If you just don't 'bite the bullet' and accept the fact that (in the short term) you are going to be less effective, I'm not sure you'll ever really embrace the 'new way' of doing things. IF the new way is better, you'll always be a little less effective than you otherwise would be since in year 3, you would only be as effective as what originally was envisioned in year 2. You'll maintain that 'behind the curve' development throughout your career as a defensive player.

The position you're taking isn't necessarily 'incorrect' as I could make the counter-argument that even in martial arts, one doesn't teach advanced techniques to neophytes until they've had a chance to incrementally learn how to 'build up' to these unfamiliar techniques. The distinction I'm drawing is that these are already professional football players and therefore are akin to black belts. You might have a black belt in one martial art cross-train in another martial art, and that person wouldn't be expected to need to learn at the same, slow incremental pace that a "true beginner" would need to do. In fact, that person (at least within the style of the new discipline) would be expected to abandon his previous knowledge (that conflicts with the new style) during class, even though he might be more effective incorporating what he is 'comfortable with' in the 'new defense.' That stunts his growth in the new style as he never really embraces the underlying principles that make the style effective.

While this (changing) is very hard to do initially, as you've trained to make that previous response somewhat instinctive, one ultimately becomes effective in the 'new style,' and both responses seem 'natural,' it just becomes a matter of 'choice.' If you never 'fully embrace' the new, there is a tendency to 'fall back' on what is familiar and comfortable. Also, I think the message it might send is that the players aren't 'smart enough' if you had to go with smaller doses.

Since it's all speculation anyway, I couldn't say my take has any more validity that yours, but I just think we'd be better off in the 'long run' to live with the up-and-down defense in the short term for the greater (hopefully) benefits in the long term.
LOL! Great post, I had a fun time reading it and see a lot of similarities between the two topics!
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Re: Powers: Maybe Zimmer should dumb down his defensive syst

Post by Boon »

Cincy still has a monster defense, with a similar scheme and zimmer isn't there. You can't make bad players good, you just can't do it. If they can't learn a system that has worked in the past to a top 5 level, it's time to get new players. I say stick with it to be honest
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