Kluwe's "Other" Cause

[DanAS]

We hear a lot these days about Kluwe's punting, Kluwe's politics and Kluwe's writing. And people we'll surely have to agree to disagree about each of those topics.

But can we all not agree that one of Kluwe's causes was a righteous one? Can we all not agree that Ray Guy should be in the Hall of Fame?

Guy reportedly has been REALLY close on different occasions (not just a finalist but one who almost made it). Yet that was back in the day. Now, many fans look at him as just another old-timer whose career numbers don't compare especially favorably with the best punters of today. (Guy unfortunately played a position associated with objective numbers -- much like Roger Bannister, whose four minute mile was ground breaking in his day, but who wouldn't even remotely be competitive in 2013.)

When he played, Guy was "Mr. Punter." Even before he hang up his cleats, there was no debate as to who was the greatest of all time. He was great in every punting category. In all the ways we've been quibbling with Kluwe on the field, Guy set the standard. Plus, he was even his team's third string quarterback. Never in his career did anyone return one of his punts for a touchdown, and while I obviously don't remember all his punts, I'm guessing that in one of those fluke instances where his hang time wasn't adequate to prevent a significant return, he would have the athleticism to either make the tackle or assist in it.

In short, Guy was a football player who happened to be the punter that revolutionized his position. And yet, he's not in the Hall or even a finalist any more, because he didn't play in the ESPN era and Canton has to make room for the 25th best linebacker or the 45th best defensive end, simply because they're younger and more people recognize them.

I think it's B.S. And I think it was cool that Kluwe put the Guy patch on his uniform. Shame on the Vikings coach for publicly kvetching about that brazen act of self-expression. It makes me feel that only guys who we can envision in that American Gothic painting belong in today's NFL.

[Eli]

While I respect your opinion and that of others who feel the same, I have to say that I couldn't care less.

[The Breeze]

Because Kluwe is a punter, his opinion about Guy has merit in my view. However, it's not a cause I really care about personally. The cause I care about is the Vikings winning games. I can't recall any social twerk coming from Kluwe that really addresses that one.

People who didn't see Guy play will probably never know how he booted the ball. He's a HOFer IMO....but I really don't care about the actual HOF to be honest. I care about having HOF caliber players on the team.

I think Kluwe's intention, whether conscious or not, is infected with a desire for the spotlight. His being cut doesn't hurt him one bit in that regard....just puts more attention on him. Perhaps he will land in a bigger market and continue his multiple pursuits.

meanwhile in Mankato...Fraizer is building a compelling football culture .

[DanAS]

Because Kluwe is a punter, his opinion about Guy has merit in my view. However, it's not a cause I really care about personally. The cause I care about is the Vikings winning games. I can't recall any social twerk coming from Kluwe that really addresses that one.

People who didn't see Guy play will probably never know how he booted the ball. He's a HOFer IMO....but I really don't care about the actual HOF to be honest. I care about having HOF caliber players on the team.

I think Kluwe's intention, whether conscious or not, is infected with a desire for the spotlight. His being cut doesn't hurt him one bit in that regard....just puts more attention on him. Perhaps he will land in a bigger market and continue his multiple pursuits.

meanwhile in Mankato...Fraizer is building a compelling football culture .

I can't judge Kluwe's motives. But I can judge the stupidity of not letting in the best player at a position that is hardly trivial. Maybe one of the differences is that back in the day, the rules favored the defenses more and points were more at a premium. The importance of a punter was magnified.

Other than maybe Jerry Rice, there aren't too many players more associated with dominating a position than Guy. As Kluwe pointed out, we didn't have the notion of "hang time" before he played.

[CalVike]

It's pretty clear the non-Raider fan portion of the population considers Ray Guy overrated as a punter. Here's a link to an article from December that lays out the facts pretty well.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012 ... l-of-fame-

Ray Guy simply wasn't far better, if better at all, than the other punters of his generation. So key HOF voters, with justification, have always kept him out.

[DanAS]

It's pretty clear the non-Raider fan portion of the population considers Ray Guy overrated as a punter. Here's a link to an article from December that lays out the facts pretty well.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012 ... l-of-fame-

Ray Guy simply wasn't far better, if better at all, than the other punters of his generation. So key HOF voters, with justification, have always kept him out.

So the argument is that because Guy was no "so far superior" to the other NFL punters, he doesn't belong.

Funny, I remember that amazing stab he made in the Super Bowl. And I'm reminded of another great stab made by a player who made it into Canton most likely because of a great catch -- Lynn Swann. Did Lynn pass the test of being "so far superior" to the other NFL wide receivers? Was he even in the top 15 wide receivers of all time? Top 20?

The truth is, very few players make the Hall in any sport if that is the standard. And as the comment about Guy being overrated, he was certainly highly rated enough to very nearly make the Hall on different occasions -- but I doubt that happened simply because Raiders fans were voting for him. It's because he became known as the greatest. And largely, it was due to the height on his punts and his athleticism. Overrated? Half of Canton is overrated. The point is that the best punter of all time should be in the Hall, and that person is generally considered to be Ray Guy.

[DarthBrooks]

You can't judge the performance of someone who changed the game by the standards of guys who came after that change. Did other high jumpers go higher than Dick Fosbury? Yes, but they did it with techniques he pioneered. Ray Guy belongs in the hall of fame (as does Don Coryell) because of the way they reforged the game.

[PurpleMustReign]

You can't judge the performance of someone who changed the game by the standards of guys who came after that change. Did other high jumpers go higher than Dick Fosbury? Yes, but they did it with techniques he pioneered. Ray Guy belongs in the hall of fame (as does Don Coryell) because of the way they reforged the game.

\
Placekickers like the Anderso(e)ns should be in too, IMO... I wonder if Jason Hanson will get in.

[PacificNorseWest]

This guy retired when I was 1, so I really don't feel comfortable sharing a definitive opinion. All I can say is that if a punter gets elected to the HOF, he'd have to be pretty damn spectacular for a long long time...And then some.

Honestly, I don't know much about him and wouldn't mind having some of the older folk on here school me about this guy.

[The Breeze]

This guy retired when I was 1, so I really don't feel comfortable sharing a definitive opinion. All I can say is that if a punter gets elected to the HOF, he'd have to be pretty damn spectacular for a long long time...And then some.

Honestly, I don't know much about him and wouldn't mind having some of the older folk on here school me about this guy.

The thing I remember clearly about Guy was the boom in his leg. He kicked it so high and deep like no one before him really. It was an actual event during a game to see him kick...and as Kluwe said , the hangtime clock was a result of his kicking.

There is probably statistical proof of several guys being better since...Reggie Roby might be one in Guy's own era.....but Guy was the first punter I can think of who was an actual weapon of sorts at his position. Being a copycat league Guy was the mold for the modern NFL punter.

An interesting topic would be..What constitutes a HOF punter in this era?

Given the parity of the league and the glaring fact that so many games hinge on just a play or two, it makes perfect sense for FO's to seek any advantage at every position.
My idea of a game changing punter is obviously a guy with a big leg and skilled at directional punting. Left footed could be an advantage because of the possibilty of reverse spin on the ball....anything to increase the odds of a miscue for the returner. Ultimately I'd like a guy with the build and mentality of a free safety with the aforementioned kicking skills. A guy you would have no worries about finishing a tackle if a returner got near him. Maybe the guy could even be a back up DB too. A guy who can really run and would have to be a concern to fake the kick anytime the first down marker is less than 10 yards away.
The difference between punters and punting is so marginal that it would be tough to revolutionze the position beyond just creating advantages for the coverage unit by creating uncertainty for opposing return units.

The most obvious possibility would be some guy who comes along with the uncanny ability to drop it inside the 20 the majority of the time...which I would deem damn near impossible since it would require control over how the ball bounces.

[The Breeze]

Just to take this a little further:

this is a historical list of NFL punters at pro-reference:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... pindex.htm

prior to the 70's a good deal of NFL punters were dual position players


here is a list of season leaders by yards per punt :

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/l ... y_year.htm

notice that only in the last 4 yrs or so has the yards per kick gone beyond the norm.... that the best kickers in the old days were QBs and that they kicked it just as far as modern kickers....probably not as high.

Incidentally Ray Gay was a 1st round pick #28 overall. And I was incorrect to suggest that Reggie Roby was in Guy's era....Roby was at least a decade later.

It's conceivable that having a guy whose sole job is to punt the ball is a wasted roster spot, when it's clearly something any decent athelete could become skilled enough at to do a good job.

[Raptorman]

Part of the problem I think is that people don't consider the Punter to be that important to the game. When in reality they can make or break the game. Just look at the stats that Pro-Football Reference has for leaders in punts. Longest punt, most punts, Punting yards, punts blocked, yards per punt. Nothing about inside the 20. The only two the punter has any control over out of those 5, Yards per punt and longest punt. And that depends on were the team is when he has to punt. Punters aren't important until they have to drop it inside the 20 with less than 2 minutes on the clock. Hence the apathy from fans and HOF voters.

[CalVike]

The point is that the best punter of all time should be in the Hall, and that person is generally considered to be Ray Guy.

I don't disagree that a punter should be in the HOF, but I don't think there is a conspiracy against punters; they are simply a victim of a HOF voting system that puts them up against players at more high profile positions, look how long it took Cris Carter; punters have no shot right or wrong with this system.

I do remember Ray Guy as the dominant punter of the late 70s and early 80s, just old enough to remember. I don't have any problem if he gets in to the HOF. My point is that I think the naysayers have raised sound statistical reasons to justify exclusion.

As a Viking fan, my biased opinion is that Jim Marshall's and Mick Tinglehoff's rejection is far greater than Ray Guy's exclusion. It is subjective and many on the HOF committee, notably Paul Zimmerman, fought hard against Ray Guy. Dr. Z also fought hard against Tinglehoff and never seemed to meet a Dallas Cowboy he did not seem to love. So there is definitely bias at play. And I think Lynn Swan's inclusion is a joke, Ray Guy is far more qualified than him, by my standard.

Dan, I went too far saying it was only Raiders fans who are championing his cause, a poor choice for the message board. This thread belongs in NFL talk, just a loose Kluwe connection bringing it to Vikings talk IMHO.

[DanAS]

Well, I sure did pick a bit of a strawman in raising the Lynn Swann comparison. How that guy ever got in the Hall ...
Oh yeah, he played for the Steelers in the 70s. You could stick a whole lot of guys on that team, and they could punch their ticket to Canton.

Honestly, I put the post under Vikings Talk because I thought I could find something unifying about the whole Kluwe situation. I really do believe that reasonable people can disagree about the punting. And clearly, when it comes to politics, while we all might feel passionately about the relevant issues, we had better agree to disagree with those who have different political views or this whole society will fall apart. But I just thought that on this one issue -- admittedly, a relatively minor one -- we can all come together, celebrate Kluwe's outspokenness, and agree on a football-related issue. Just a thought.

[CalVike]

Honestly, I put the post under Vikings Talk because I thought I could find something unifying about the whole Kluwe situation. I really do believe that reasonable people can disagree about the punting. And clearly, when it comes to politics, while we all might feel passionately about the relevant issues, we had better agree to disagree with those who have different political views or this whole society will fall apart. But I just thought that on this one issue -- admittedly, a relatively minor one -- we can all come together, celebrate Kluwe's outspokenness, and agree on a football-related issue. Just a thought.

A worthy effort. I support your quest for unity and especially your point about the need for an ability to agree to disagree with those whose political viewpoints are in opposition to one's own. On the VIkings message board level, where political discussions are verboten, it is similarly important to have an ability to agree to disagree with those whose viewpoints differ. Fortunately, the Board has moderators when the discussions go too far in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, society is not so fortunate, with largely objective journalists like Dave Moore, Walter Cronkhite, Ted Koppel, and Tom Brokaw a thing of the past and making way for far more polarized and profitable discussions with an overtly purposeful bias (there are exceptions I know). Mods: Feel free to delete this post if you feel it is too political in nature.