A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

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Funkytown
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by Funkytown »

GBFavreFan wrote:
And this is where things go really crazy. Ponder ends up injured and misses the playoff game, which means we technically don’t really know how good this team was? So we have that question mark going for us, plus the spotlight of Adrian’s 2,100 yard performance. We have our legendary WR Cris Carter announced for the HOF, Adrian Peterson wins MVP of the entire NFL. We win the most high-profile bidding war in the 2013 free agency by stealing our rival and media darling Packer’s best WR Greg Jennings. We get even more attention and spotlight when we secure three first round picks and receive almost universal praise for likely the best draft in the entire NFL this year. Going into 2013, the spotlight hasn’t been as bright, and our expectations are as high as they’ve been since 2009 before Brett Favre took his first snap in a Vikings uniform.
...now you just went and got me all excited. :clap:

Is it football season yet...?
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by Mothman »

I appreciate the effort you put into that long post and I doubt you'll like what I have to say in this one but I'm sorry, I don't buy that "one of the most characteristic attributes of Bad Ponder was his fear of throwing the ball downfield and these stats back that up". Ponder was still willing to throw the ball downfield during the "Bad Ponder" period you mentioned, particularly against TB, but for various reasons, a lot of those plays weren't effective. Completion and yardage stats aren't going to reveal anything about the distance of attempts. I don't think there was any fear of passing downfield. I believe the Vikes backed away from it a little because it wasn't working and they were struggling in protection.

Where you really lost me was with the talk about the impact of expectations and this:
As for our win against the Lions, we won by 10 points, and Blair Walsh nailed a whopping 4 field goals. This was the theme during this time. Guys making plays to keep us in the game and Ponder doing absolutely nothing or costing us the game.
In that Detroit game where "Bad Ponder" apparently continued a theme of doing "absolutely nothing" and the Vikings supposedly won on the strength of Walsh's kicking, Ponder completed 75% of the 32 passes he attempted for 221 yards and 2 TDs. His rating that day was 114.2 and by dismissively lumping that game in with some of his poor performances and de-emphasizing his contribution in favor of Walsh's FGs, you undermine the credibility of your position.

Regarding the idea that expectations cracked Ponder: I suppose that could have been a factor but I think what really started the slump was the Redskins' pressure and the Cardinals' manhandling of the Vikes o-line the following week. Defenses figured out that the Vikes couldn't handle the blitz and if they took away the short stuff to Harvin and Rudolph, the Vikes were really going to struggle to pass the ball. Over 4 consecutive weeks, we saw Washington, Arizona, Tampa Bay and Seattle blitz the life out of the Vikes passing game and beat up their QB. Ponder was sacked 14 times in those 4 games and I think that got into his head. He also appeared to lose confidence (or at least poise) and he started forcing passes he wasn't forcing earlier (or late) in the season.

This idea that Ponder withers under national attention just doesn't hold any water for me. It's far too simplistic and it ignores too much of what was actually happening on the field, around the QB. When teams do a poor job of protecting their QB and they don't have good deep threats, their passing game, particularly their deep passing game suffers. When they have a young QB who has a tendency to make throws off his back foot or to force the ball into coverage when pressured, that just makes things worse. When they resolve some of those issues (Wright proved a better deep threat than anyone Ponder was throwing to early in the season, the pass protection improved) then things start to go better. I'm not suggesting psychology plays no role in a QB's performance and as I said earlier, I think confidence was an issue for Ponder at one point last season. However, when I just watch the games and look at what's happening in a football sense, not a "fanalytical", psychological sense, I see enough football issues, issues on the field, to explain most of what went wrong for Ponder last season. Whatever was going on in his head was a factor too but with other problems apparent to the eye, I just don't think it makes sense to say ponder simply withered under expectations and I'm not worried about him doing so in the future.

If Ponder gets good protection, if he does a better job of setting his feet and using proper throwing mechanics, if his receivers get open when they're supposed to and help him out when plays break down, I suspect he will be just fine. If the Vikes start allowing 14 sacks in 4 games again in 2013, there are going to be serious problems.
Last edited by Mothman on Mon May 06, 2013 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by PurpleJarl »

well written, good read.



IMO the best we can expect is for an overall better year from Ponder on the low end. I think the Green Bay game showed us his best, or close to it and I think he is good to replicate that kind of game 1-2 a year. What I am really hoping for is his basement to come up a bit. even just a couple of steps up in his very worst games, like a rally sparking bomb, even if it falls short or a TD and 3 interceptions instead of just 3 interceptions would be good news to me. Basically if he can reduce the outliers of terrible games Ill be a happy camper.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by mondry »

I think the correlation between team expectations / media expectations for the team and Ponder's play is as close to 0 as possible. He was definitely inconstant so I'm not saying he wasn't, but there are so many more obvious reasons on the field for it than claiming he cares that much what the media thinks of the team's chances.


#1. Ponder doesn't call the plays, Musgrave does. In the first portion of the season, short dump offs to Harvin were extremely effective, however teams adapted. Musgrave took a while to come up with some "new material" while the short game was getting shut down. As you said, Ponder seemingly does better throwing down field a little more but again he can only do what the coaches ask him to do. Also, see point #2, it's harder to go down field because plays like that take time to develop and time is something you don't have when the O-line is struggling.

#2. During the "bad Ponder" time frame, the O-line was very inconsistent and our pass protection was not up to par. This should be obvious enough why that would effect a QB's play.

#3. No surprise a second year player making his first full season of starts from his locked out rookie year (no training camp) and Mcflabb eating up half the season, has some growing pains playing the most difficult position in sports. Maybe CP will have ups and downs because he's a young QB gaining experience!

#4. Our stable of WR's were definitely nothing special. Guys like simpson and aromashadou dropped a good number of passes and were unable to create separation. It's hard to be consistent when you make a decent throw only for it to be dropped and these guys, including Harvin are notoriously bad route runners, Jennings will give him a much more reliable target.

#5. Harvin get's hurt, FORCING musgrave and CP to adapt and move away from the short passing game, which we've already discussed he actually *gasp* performs better as a QB throwing the ball more down field and getting into a rhythm, not surprising in the least.

#6. Jarius Wright also started to see the field around the time "good ponder" made a return and CP immediately took advantage of his speed and ability, hooking up on more deep passes in a 3 game stretch than we seemingly had all year. I wouldn't blame CP for this though, if anything maybe the coaches should have had JW out on the field early and often, can't throw to a guy on the bench.

I'm gonna stop there but that would be the 6 major ON THE FIELD, reasons our young QB might struggle imo.
Last edited by mondry on Mon May 06, 2013 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by mansquatch »

This is the Jekyl/Hide thing. It is old news, but it is relevant. Here are my thoughts:

My opinion is that the answer to the question of whether our WR will be better or not in 2013 is almost certain to be that they are better overall. The bigger question there is how much better. I’ll think we’ll get closer to at least league average vs. bringing up the rear, but there are many things that could go right or wrong that could turn the overall performance. In the context of Ponder I think that in general our current WR corps can be expected to generate more mid to long range passing opportunities than last year. So to your point, can Ponder capitalize with some consistency? That is probably the single biggest question for our offense going into this season. I’d also like to see him continue his trend of reducing his turnovers, albeit there isn’t much farther to go before he enters an elite level with his INT stat, so we might see regression there if he puts the ball up more.

That last bit is actually why I think we’ll still see things somewhat limited in terms of downfield passing. It seems to me that our coaching staff really wants to limit our giveaways give the style of football we play. That to me will temper any bonanza of passing attempts, at least early on IMO. One positive for yardage might be that at least early in the year we’ll probably see teams sell out even further to try and slow 28. That will result in some early games where there will be some very generous defensive alignments for a QB to throw against. My hope is that by week 8 or 9 teams will have abandoned these schemes due to tape of Ponder torching said defenses. One can dream right?

I think the question you are asking with your thread title is probably the difference between a 7-9 win season and a 10-13 win season.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by soflavike »

I appreciate the optimism, but the problem is that even "good Ponder" wasn't really THAT good. It was more like "awful Ponder" and "mediocre Ponder".

This year, Ponder has the best running back in the universe, a pretty good O-line, a young tight-end with great hands and a fresh set of receivers to throw to. If he can't make that work, he can't make it work. Period.

I hope all the optimism is well-placed. :govikes:
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by losperros »

mondry wrote:#6. Jarius Wright also started to see the field around the time "good ponder" made a return and CP immediately took advantage of his speed and ability, hooking up on more deep passes in a 3 game stretch than we seemingly had all year. I wouldn't blame CP for this though, if anything maybe the coaches should have had JW out on the field early and often, can't throw to a guy on the bench.
I think this reason is too often overlooked and kind of opens a can of worms about how the Vikings viewed Wright in the passing game. Now I understand that Wright might not have been tearing it up at practice but I figure he must have been drafted because of what he did for the Razorbacks in college. And what Wright did for them was exactly what he started doing for the Vikings, which is provide big plays and that includes catching the ball downfield.

I don't know exactly why Ponder had his ups and downs last season. That said, I do think the Vikings made a mistake in not playing Wright sooner, which I believe could and would have helped Ponder and the entire offense. I hope the Vikings don't make that same mistake this upcoming season. Get Wright on the field!
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by Mothman »

soflavike wrote:I appreciate the optimism, but the problem is that even "good Ponder" wasn't really THAT good. It was more like "awful Ponder" and "mediocre Ponder".

This year, Ponder has the best running back in the universe, a pretty good O-line, a young tight-end with great hands and a fresh set of receivers to throw to. If he can't make that work, he can't make it work. Period.
It's the same running back, the same o-line and the same TE he had last year. The differences are at WR. Harvin is out. Jennings is in. Aromashodu is out. Patterson is in.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by mansquatch »

Mothman wrote: It's the same running back, the same o-line and the same TE he had last year. The differences are at WR. Harvin is out. Jennings is in. Aromashodu is out. Patterson is in.
And as of right now Simpson is not playing at sub 100% plus Jarius Wright has a year of experience.

The point about Simpson's health seems to get lost ofnpeople. Not only was he playing hurt, the coaches felt that a sub 100% Jerome Simpson was BETTER than just about anyone else on the depth chart that wasn't also on the field. That isn't saying Simpson is great either, just how bleak the situation at WR was after PH got hurt. That is why I think our WR will be better than last year, they just can't get much worse than the last half of 2012.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:as of right now Simpson is not playing at sub 100% plus Jarius Wright has a year of experience.
True, and that might make a big difference. I'm hopeful but we'll see. Playing hurt wasn't Simpson's only problem last year. He dropped passes and ran some pretty poor routes at times. He has great athletic ability but we have to remember that he's really only made much impact in one of his five NFL seasons.
The point about Simpson's health seems to get lost ofnpeople. Not only was he playing hurt, the coaches felt that a sub 100% Jerome Simpson was BETTER than just about anyone else on the depth chart that wasn't also on the field. That isn't saying Simpson is great either, just how bleak the situation at WR was after PH got hurt. That is why I think our WR will be better than last year, they just can't get much worse than the last half of 2012.
I sure hope not but I'm tempering my expectations.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by hibbingviking »

excellent post. :thumbsup:
I just hope ponder can stay healthy. doesn't look to promising after sitting out the playoffs because of a swollen elbow. not sure why they could drain it, or numb it. :confused: seems like he is always banged up. :(
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by dead_poet »

hibbingviking wrote: not sure why they could drain it, or numb it. :confused: seems like he is always banged up. :(
See below. Freak injury but obviously one he couldn't play through.
Minnesota Vikings quarterback Christian Ponder said Wednesday that the bruised triceps on his throwing arm that kept him out of his team's playoff loss at Green Bay has healed fully, but he had a scare about two weeks after the season when the contusion came back, his arm swelled up and the muscle hardened.

Ponder said he thought it was a blood clot and went to the emergency room to be safe. He described the trip to the hospital as "scary" because the ER doctor initially wanted to rush him into surgery. But he called Vikings trainer Eric Sugarman, who talked to the doctor and advised that they give Ponder an MRI first.

"I called Sugs first, and thank goodness, because the doctor in the ER -- she was a great help, but like wanted to go into surgery," Ponder told reporters, according to 1500ESPN.com. "She thought it was compartmental syndrome. Luckily, Sugs called at the right moment and talked to the doctor and said don't do anything crazy, just go get him an MRI to make sure, and it ended up being fine."

Ponder said that about two weeks later, "all the effects went away."

"Since then, I've been working out probably two months, and it's been fine," he said.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/92349 ... ned-ok-now
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by Mothman »

GBFavreFan wrote:Jerome Simpson is like Greg Childs to me, in the sense that if he produces for us in 2013, that's just gravy and not something I expect. I remembered at the time how they pointed out how he had a somewhat unusual back injury, and we could hope that was the reason for his lackluster play, but I'm not banking on it. If it was, and he plays like the guy we thought we were signing that'll be awesome, but in the meantime I'll look to Jennings, Patterson, and Wright to be the guys that make it happen for us.
I know we don't always see eye to eye but we're on the same page about Simpson.
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by VikeMike »

Roller coaster rides are expected when you have a second-year QB. Sure, it was frustrating to watch, but if it shouldn't be all that surprising that a young quarterback struggles. Hopefully, he can up his game a bit in his third season -- as he should.

What's intriguing about 2013's WR corps is, I think, it is a more diverse group as a whole. Jennings can play the X, Y or Z. Hopefully Patterson can overcome some of his inexperience -- the guy had one season at a major college so he needs some time to learn to play the position -- and allow his natural abilities to come out. He can fill the underneath WR role as he develops. But he definitely has the ability to get downfield. He could be a bit of a project, but with Jennings and the other veterans around, he won't have to be the focus. Jerome Simpson can swing between being the 3rd or 2nd WR, depending on how CP is going. And anyway you look at it, Wright should be an upgrade at the 4th spot over Jenkins or the remainder of the roster last year.

Maybe Ponder will have a little more to work with this year, and if he makes the steps he should in his development, then we'll see much less of the roller coaster this year.

BTW, I don't see the Vikings as that 'up and coming' team. They are in the pipeline, but wouldn't you say that Seattle is more of that team going into the season?
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Re: A Tale of Two Ponders and who do we get in 2013?

Post by Mothman »

VikeMike wrote:Roller coaster rides are expected when you have a second-year QB. Sure, it was frustrating to watch, but if it shouldn't be all that surprising that a young quarterback struggles.
You're right about that.
What's intriguing about 2013's WR corps is, I think, it is a more diverse group as a whole. Jennings can play the X, Y or Z. Hopefully Patterson can overcome some of his inexperience -- the guy had one season at a major college so he needs some time to learn to play the position -- and allow his natural abilities to come out. He can fill the underneath WR role as he develops. But he definitely has the ability to get downfield. He could be a bit of a project, but with Jennings and the other veterans around, he won't have to be the focus. Jerome Simpson can swing between being the 3rd or 2nd WR, depending on how CP is going. And anyway you look at it, Wright should be an upgrade at the 4th spot over Jenkins or the remainder of the roster last year.

Maybe Ponder will have a little more to work with this year, and if he makes the steps he should in his development, then we'll see much less of the roller coaster this year.

BTW, I don't see the Vikings as that 'up and coming' team. They are in the pipeline, but wouldn't you say that Seattle is more of that team going into the season?
I think it depends on how you interpret "up and coming". Both teams showed strong signs of advancement last year. The Seahawks seem likely to be a popular Super Bowl choice this season while the Vikes probably aren't there yet but certainly look like a team taking steps forward.

I agree that if Ponder takes a step forward and has more to work with, we may see less of a roller coaster ride this season. However (to address the overall theme of QB play and passing offense), while there's been a lot of talk about Ponder and the WR corps this offseason and although QB is crucially important and there have been significant changes at WR, I'm going to keep banging that pass protection drum. If the passing game is going to take the next step, the Vikes have to be better and more consistent in all 3 areas of passing offense (QB, WR and blocking) and if that oft-overlooked third area breaks down too often, the passing game breaks down with it. I know I'm repeating myself and I apologize but with all the theorizing that's gone since last October regarding Ponder's mid-season slump, I feel like the signal sometimes gets lost in the noise. Everyone talks about the skill positions but good offense begins up front and I can't emphasize enough that poor pass protection played a huge role in those sub-100 yard passing performances and in some of those mid-season losses. They were able to right that ship a little later in the season but they were also emphasizing the run more at that point. The pass protection still left something to be desired.

Anyway, the point is that for a passing game to really click, the parts have to work together and good blocking is going to be as important to success or failure as QB and receiver performance.
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