Vikes/SeahawksPost-game Thoughts

[Mothman]

Post-game thoughts? Honestly, since I only saw about 20% of the plays and had to listen to the game, I don't have too many but I thought I'd start a thread anyway.

I'm sure Ponder will once again be the subject du jour and that's understandable. He has to get better. However, there are many threads about him already so I wanted to touch on a few other things:

First, regarding teh passing game: with Ponder at Qb or without him, protection issues and receivers struggling to get open continue to be problems and if the passing game is going to get where it needs to be, those problems need to be fixed along with the issues at QB.

- Second, Adrian Peterson is amazing. It's said over and over but hey, it's true. It's a shame such a terrific performance was squandered in a loss.

— I hope Harvin is okay.

— The passing game isn't the only serious issue the Vikes are facing. What's going on with their defense? They've allowed 100 yard rushers in 4 straight games, they're missing too many tackles and they aren't playing to the level they were a month or so ago. Frankly, they're fortunate that Ponder's performances are drawing so much attention because otherwise, I think they'd be getting more heat.

[dkoby]

Quite honestly, I was hoping they would keep Harvin out, not only for his health, but I was hoping that it would FORCE someone else to step up and or make Ponder throw downfield.

[FailedtoOpen]

make Ponder throw downfield.

Here is the thing you can force Ponder to throw downfield but it doesn't matter if nobody is open, or at the very least has separation. Nobody on this team has a AJ Green/Dalton connection and it hurts the team. Why is this relevant because Dalton can throw the ball into double coverage and get away with it due to Greens athletic ability and their synergy.

[danewone]

Our team is the only team to lose in our division again.....other teams that are worse still manage to get more than 1 drive in the whole game while we go 3 and out 99% of the time....can't win at all with that kind of pos even with Ap running....so ''''

[S197]

I think the "receivers have to get separation" mantra is over used. Now, let me qualify that by saying I do agree that talent is certainly lacking in our receiving corps, however, this is the NFL and at this level a QB is going to have to fit the ball into tight windows. We saw Freeman do it last week and we saw Wilson do it this week. How much separation did Tate have on that TD? Maybe a step in front of Jefferson? It was just a really good throw.

At this level you're not going to have a 10-yard pocket to sit in and receivers who get 5-yards of separation on a defender. On the called interference deep pass to Harvin, he had enough separation, the ball was underthrown. This is why it's tough to be an NFL QB and why some people look like stars in camp and in practice but can't make it translate to the field.

Jim brings up a good point about the defense. Doug Martin is looking like the real deal, RG3 has been running on everyone, and Lynch is no slouch so that and being on the field for a long time has something to do with it but I definitely agree that Ponder's play has overshadowed a disturbing trend in the defense allowing big yardage. Allen showed good presence today, not over pursuing and actually making several tackles on Lynch in the backfield. I think Robison needs to work on that and our LB's still lack gap control. It's also been a while since I've seen Winfield make his signature big stops at the LOS, perhaps the age is starting to show.

[DanAS]

Post-game thoughts? Honestly, since I only saw about 20% of the plays and had to listen to the game, I don't have too many but I thought I'd start a thread anyway.

I'm sure Ponder will once again be the subject du jour and that's understandable. He has to get better. However, there are many threads about him already so I wanted to touch on a few other things:

First, regarding teh passing game: with Ponder at Qb or without him, protection issues and receivers struggling to get open continue to be problems and if the passing game is going to get where it needs to be, those problems need to be fixed along with the issues at QB.

- Second, Adrian Peterson is amazing. It's said over and over but hey, it's true. It's a shame such a terrific performance was squandered in a loss.

— I hope Harvin is okay.

— The passing game isn't the only serious issue the Vikes are facing. What's going on with their defense? They've allowed 100 yard rushers in 4 straight games, they're missing too many tackles and they aren't playing to the level they were a month or so ago. Frankly, they're fortunate that Ponder's performances are drawing so much attention because otherwise, I think they'd be getting more heat.

Jim, you were 100 percent correct in saying that Ponder "has to get better." No quarterback could have possibly done any worse.

I agree that the tackling was atrocious. That surprised me. Perhaps they're not playing with intensity like they were earlier in the season. I don't know what's going on with side of the football.

AD had a great game, but honestly, I hope we don't use him too much this year. It's going to be another lost year, so let's save AD's legs a bit in the hope that he can make a contribution when the team is good again -- which will require getting this Ponder guy off the field and require acquiring a new QB during the off-season. Ponder is absolutely unwatchable. He is not particularly talented to begin with, and now he's underachieving. It's the worst possible combination.

[J. Kapp 11]

Ponder is precariously close to being benched. In fact, in spite of my supporting him, I would be in favor of it. Two weeks ago, he threw for 50-something yards. Against Tampa, he was horrible. Over half his passing yards came after the Vikings were down 19 and Tampa was in prevent. Today he was absolutely atrocious. I didn't think he could play worse than he did against Arizona, but he did.

The defense tackled just fine until about halfway through the third quarter. Remember, Seattle's first score was set up by Percy's fumble. They did have two other drives, but the tackling wasn't horrible. Defensive line play and poor gap control by the LBs were, but not tackling. The tackling issues didn't show up in full force until Seattle had established a significant time-of-possession advantage in the third quarter. Basically, they wore us down.

Gotta be honest ... the protection wasn't THAT bad today. Ponder simply holds on to the ball too long. He's paralyzed. Can't make a decision. You don't have five seconds to throw in this league. He looks so afraid of throwing a pick that he won't throw to anybody who isn't open by five yards. Seattle got a few sacks, but only once that I can think of (Loadholt's colossal whiff when two guys rushed his area and he blocked no one) did Ponder not sort of sack himself with indecision.

Harvin showed a lot of guts, but he shouldn't have been out there in the fourth quarter. It was an incredibly risky play by the coaching staff that I disagreed with tremendously.

Peterson is the best ball carrier in the league, and maybe the best I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot of 'em. Complete back? No. He just doesn't protect well. But he's a simply incredible runner who is actually having one of his best seasons.

Gotta give a shout to Blair Walsh. That 55-yarder would have been good from 65. What was truly amazing was how HIGH that kick was despite the distance. It was 15 feet higher than the top of the goalposts at its peak, and crossed the bar 3/4 of the way up the posts. He also had four more touchbacks out of five kickoffs.

Not that it mattered, but the Vikings' time management at the end of the first half once again was borderline retarded. We can't seem to decide whether we're going to run out the clock or actually try to score ... probably because they don't trust Ponder. Bottom line: we gave up three points there.

[Eli]

One of the biggest problems with the run defense is that the defensive line is being easily handled with one-on-one blocking, and blockers are easily getting to the linebackers. The Vikings haven't found that second DT to play along side Kevin Williams and now that Williams is a step or two slower and not playing every down, they're horribly soft in the middle. Allen and Robison are both mediocre run defenders, but Allen in particular seems to be easily handled on running plays.

Henderson and Brinkley cannot fend of blockers. I don't think it's so much that the LBs aren't playing disciplined as it is they're just not good at playing in traffic. Greenway often looks like he's out there by himself. Brinkley has quickly become every bit the liability in the middle that we feared at the start of the season, both in pass coverage and in his inability to pursue east/west.

Harrison Smith is a total meat-head. Great instincts and ball hawking ability, but poor decision making and a complete lack of fundamental tackling skills. He needs to wrap guys up and quit being a human missile on defense. Earlier in the season, it cost him penalties and fines, now it's cost the Vikings' defense a lot of yards.

On offense, this game was exactly the same as last week, except that Peterson was even more of a stud, and everyone else was even flatter in all aspects of the game. Kyle Rudolph's complete disappearance has been a mystery, but I can't honestly say anything else on offense has been surprising. Looks like Percy Harvin's pre-season gripes (or attitude problems) have resurfaced.

I can't for the life of me figure out what the Vikings are doing at right guard. They play Fusco, then they play Schwartz, then back again. Fusco today gave up several pressures and at least one sack. I haven't watched them that closely, so maybe Schwartz isn't much better.

[beardedterror]

IMO there are a lot of things going on, and there is no simple answer.

To start off, there is no way that throwing for 63 yards, 0 TDs and 1 pick is acceptable from any QB in the NFL. That alone is bad enough that Ponder should be tarred and feathered out of Minnesota. I'm still in Ponder's camp, but today's showing was absolutely pathetic, and I can't be patient much longer with these piss-poor performances.

Turnovers will kill any NFL team. We gave up two today, and didn't create any. We already don't play well when we're down, and starting the game with a fumble from Percy in their red zone isn't going to win many ball games for us.

Fundamentals on defense. I couldn't count the number of missed tackles we had on D today if you paid me to. It is their jobs to be solid when the Offense is struggling, and they simply failed today. I'm afraid that the days of our stout run-stopping defense are over. It's time to rebuild a bit of that defensive interior that is aging, and we should look at replacing our linebackers (except for Greenway, of course).

O-line needs to do a better job of protecting Ponder. I'm not giving him a pass for his performance, but there's a reason why he's looked skiddish in the pocket. The O-line has struggled recently in protecting him, forcing him out of the pocket and making some bad throws. I praised them for their performance early in the season, but they have not done well in recent weeks.

Our WRs just plain old suck. Percy is a monster, but is a hybrid slot WR/RB. Rudolph has good hands and can't block. Besides those two (one of which isn't even a Wideout), we lack the depth that NFL teams require these days to be competitive. They aren't getting open. They can't block in the run. They need upgrading.

Last but not least, We (as fans) just need to be patient. We're a very VERY young team that got out to a better-than-expected start. While the success was nice (while it lasted), it gave us false feelings of the Vikings being a playoff caliber team when they simply aren't. We're a good 2 years away from competing in a championship, and most fans would agree. Waiting is frustrating, but growing pains are expected out of a team that was 3-13 last season and is currently one of the youngest rosters in the NFL.

[Just Me]

Ponder is precariously close to being benched. In fact, in spite of my supporting him, I would be in favor of it. Two weeks ago, he threw for 50-something yards. Against Tampa, he was horrible. Over half his passing yards came after the Vikings were down 19 and Tampa was in prevent. Today he was absolutely atrocious. I didn't think he could play worse than he did against Arizona, but he did.

I have been reluctant to be too critical of Ponder because of his inexperience, but two things struck me today:

1) How much more composed the Seahawks QB was under pressure; and
2) How ineffective Ponder was at any range of passing.


My recollection is he had 1 good "mid range" pass where he rifled the ball into a small window. The rest was "meh". His PI pas (with Harvin as the receiver) should have been a TD. Harvin had his man beat and the ball was underthrown. Had that pass been thrown well, Harvin has TD reception instead of the ball bouncing off the defenders helmet as the defender interferes with Harvin. In addition Ponder MISSES a pass to a receiver at the LOS! I have been defending the srtategy of the short passes (as they had been successful) but you have to make those passes for crying out loud. Back to back games has brought me to the point that I think Ponder will ultimately play the rest of the year, but I would be making plans for next year's QB. Ponder may pull out of his "slump" but the pattern I see developing suggests he may not.

The easy part of our schedule is over. We are 5-4. If I'm generous and say we win against Detroit wr are 6-4 at the bye. I honestly think we'll get swept by the Bears. If we're lucky we split with Green Bay, but I's say a sweep is likely with them too. Houston? We have a problem. Chalk that one up as a loss as well. I'll be really optimistic and say we actually beat St. Louis. So we are looking at a max of 2 more wins after the bye which puts us at 8-8 for the season (7-9 is probably more likely).

I'm still not on the "fire Ponder NOW" wagon, but I am starting to hitch up the horses...

[mondry]

Not gonna lie I didn't really watch much of the game. Sad thing is, I can most likely repeat exactly what happened just from taking a look at the stats, so I'm gonna guess, and you guys let me know if I'm close.

Peterson ran like a mad man, 182 yards, 2 TDs, a long of 74 yards... see that's interesting to me because I'm seeing 63 yards passing for C.Ponder. Our QB play must have been so pathetic because in one RUNNING PLAY Peterson ran for more yards than our QB passed for in the entire game, and tripled the amount in total. Looking like a costly turnover, maybe two, not sure.

30% third down conversion rate so despite peterson's efforts and moving the chains on first and second down, we have very few sustained drives, lots of 3 and outs. Musgrave continues to call his horrible offense that condenses the field, lot of 2 yard passes to harvin that he's overly dependent on but by now isn't fooling anyone. Not one pass over 15 yards, not even a 5 yard pass that has YAC to equal 15 yards. A couple "shots" down the field 6 inches off the sideline, the "musgrave special" go route, where even if our WR catches it they can probably just push him out of bounds since there is no force out penalty.

Time of possession is 36 to 24 in favor of Seattle so looks like the defense probably wore down by the third quarter and Marshawn lynch had a strong performance. Fred Evans had 1 tackle but brinkley lead the team in tackles so they probably made decent gains up the middle. Wilson doesn't have crazy yardage but he has 3 TD passes, also looks like we only got one sack so he probably stayed pretty posed and avoided pressure and made some plays, unlike our horrible QB.

Peterson lead the team with 3 catches, rudolph had zero, probably kept him in to block the entire game.. smart! Sorry for the sarcasm, I just think it's incredibly pathetic when you have what might be one of the three best running backs to EVER play the game and you can't pass for more than 63 yards? And seriously how freaking good is peterson to run like that with essentially ZERO threat from the passing game? Wow!

Anyway, like I said didn't really watch the game, but I've given up on this years team. Musgrave is NOT the answer, Ponder probably isn't the answer, and I severely doubt Harvin will stay once he hits FA. Quite depressing really, but can't think too much about it.

[Raptorman]

Jim, you were 100 percent correct in saying that Ponder "has to get better." No quarterback could have possibly done any worse.

Well actually one did. McNabb last year against San Diego.

[smoothoperator]

i have clearly been wrong about ponder. what a joke. complete an effing pass, we could have rolled the hawks with just a decent passing game today. the kid has lost it and has zero confidence. his play is inexcusable at this point and has cost us yet another game.

[mansquatch]

I don't think it is a right or wrong thing. The mantra I've run with is be patient, only because I do not think you can build a competitive roster if you are constantly drafting 1st round QBs every year. That being said, I agree with the minimal performance line, Ponder is below it and it shows. The bubble screen is probably the best example. That is an ultra quick throw, it is in the backfield, and all he needs to do is put it in the right spot for Harvin to grab it and go. He couldn't do it. Just abyssmal. The happy feet issue is ever present and he is not seeing the throws.

Rather than watch Ponder I spent more time watching what the defense was doing. A question I've had over the past few weeks has been "what has changed?" and "why is Ponder suddenly struggling so much?" Some observations:

Seattle keyed on Rudolph. They were jamming him at the line, and then had him blanketed. They took away the safety valve and basically said "You are going to have to throw longer than that to beat us." Ponder couldn't do it. It wasn't that there were not plays either, for whatever reason he just isn't seeing the field and he is throwing with fear, not confidence. He is completely rattled right now. Even a whiff of pressure and he takes off. I think a big part of this is accuracy. It seems like he doesn't have confidence in his ability to fit the ball into tight places. What happened to the guy last year who might toss some picks, but then would turn into ice man and put up 150 yards in a quarter trying to bring his team back?

I think it all adds up to a serious confidence issue. There is just no flow to his game, he just seems mechanical, and opposing DC have this approach figured out and are taking away his comfort zone and making him do what he seems afraid of doing.

Regardless of whatever people think of Ponder, something is very wrong with this situation. I think it is more than just Ponder, but we'll never know. This guy is so scared to put the ball anywhere, I have to believe that the coaches know this and I also think to some degree they might be responsible for it. It feels like there is a piece of the puzzle that we are missing. How does a guy go from showing the flashes we saw last year to the guy we are seeing today?

Also, it seems like the Defense has just lost confidence in the offense. They were not playing with aggression or ferocity today. So many plays where they moved backwards off the line. It makes me wonder if there is a brewing schism in the locker room. After the Harvin outburst and the way the Defense just lacked bite it seems like this squad is heading towards a breaking point after such a promising start. The bye week cannot come soon enough.

The bye week cannot come soon enough for this team.

[Mothman]

There have been a lot of great thoughts on the game posted in this thread so far! I wish I had time to comment on all of them this morning. Unfortunately, all I have time for is this...

The two best takes I've read about the last game and the QB situation so far:

Pelissero: Rock Bottom

The Seahawks bludgeoned the protection unit with the same sorts of overload blitzes on which Tampa thrived, repeatedly removing Ponder's ability to step up in the pocket even when someone did manage to get open downfield.

"There's so much football left to be played," Frazier said. "We've been through some back to back losses, been through some ugly losses, and I know things can turn around. You've just got to make sure you stay together as a team and everybody takes a constructive look at what we're doing when we go back and look at tape on Monday and get things corrected."

The more the Vikings play like this, though, the harder that unity may be to come by, with the most difficult stretch on the schedule still ahead.

The more Ponder plays like this, the harder it may become for coaches to convince themselves that letting him experience repeated failure is his only path to future success.

Pelissero really summed things up well with that last line.

Siefert: Wrap-up—Seahawks 30, Vikings 20

PonderWatch: For the second time in three games, quarterback Christian Ponder failed to reach 100 yards passing. He grossed 63 yards against the Seattle Seahawks two weeks after managing 58 against the Arizona Cardinals. To be clear, the Seahawks' pass rush overpowered the Vikings, sacking Ponder four times and forcing him to scramble on five other occasions. But it all starts with the quarterback, and Ponder simply isn't playing at an NFL level. Another misfire on a bubble screen appeared to anger receiver Percy Harvin, and a weak fade pass to Harvin in the fourth quarter was intercepted. The Vikings are dedicated to giving Ponder a fair shake to prove he is their future starter. At some point, however, the issue becomes less about development and more about accountability. Ponder should be required to maintain a minimal level of play to remain on the field.

That's a great point and Ponder isn't playing at that level right now.

Souhan has a good column today too.

Regarding Harvin and his angry outburst: reportedly he was just frustrated, which is understandable. I can sympathize. I was pretty #@*% frustrated with him when he fumbled the ball deep in Minnesota territory after the Vikes had seized momentum early in a tough road game.

Regarding the defensive performance: it was simply unacceptable. IIRC, they gave up close to 200 yards rushing and they allowed 30 points to a team that doesn't exactly have a high-powered offense. Harvin's turnover contributed to that point total but this team isn't going to win many (if any) road game when they allow 30+ to the opposing team.

As Mansquatch posted above, this team really needs the bye week.