Our OC may not be the answer

[fiestavike]

Cousins is a terrible QB when the play breaks down. It will be imperative that the Vikings put him in controlled and predictable situations if they want to win. I think Cousins limits the ceiling for this team, and that they can't win a superbowl without elite defensive play and an excellent running game as well as better than average pass protection. That makes him more or less a glorified game manager, and hopefully that's what they'll ask him to be this year. In the end, that's a very low standard for a QB getting top of the market money, and the Vikings should move on from him ASAP in order to become perennial contenders.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Cousins is a terrible QB when the play breaks down. It will be imperative that the Vikings put him in controlled and predictable situations if they want to win. I think Cousins limits the ceiling for this team, and that they can't win a superbowl without elite defensive play and an excellent running game as well as better than average pass protection. That makes him more or less a glorified game manager, and hopefully that's what they'll ask him to be this year. In the end, that's a very low standard for a QB getting top of the market money, and the Vikings should move on from him ASAP in order to become perennial contenders.

Move on from him and have who take over? They can win a super bowl with balance.

And a glorified game manager? Is that something you just made up? The Packers have an average at best defense, poor run game and average pass protection. And they missed the playoffs by a mile. Does that make Aaron Rodgers a "glorified game manager"? Because he couldnt win a SB with that around him? Or make the playoffs for that matter?

How many QBs WIN a SB with an average to below average defense, average run game and below average pass protection?!! I will answer that for you, NONE. So I guess every QB in the NFL is a "glorified game manager".

Bottom line is, you need a well rounded, balanced team to win a SB. Everyone had the Rams and Chiefs as the favorites last year. But the Rams couldnt cover a high school team and the Chiefs defense was beyond horrible. Who won it? The most balanced team out there, New England. The team that was well rounded enough on both sides of the ball. Not the team that lit the world on fire but couldnt stop a beach ball from blowing in the end zone

[VikingLord]

Cousins is a terrible QB when the play breaks down. It will be imperative that the Vikings put him in controlled and predictable situations if they want to win. I think Cousins limits the ceiling for this team, and that they can't win a superbowl without elite defensive play and an excellent running game as well as better than average pass protection. That makes him more or less a glorified game manager, and hopefully that's what they'll ask him to be this year. In the end, that's a very low standard for a QB getting top of the market money, and the Vikings should move on from him ASAP in order to become perennial contenders.

Would you agree that Cousins was put into a lot of less-than-desirable situations last year? And I'm not just talking about plays breaking down. I'm talking about poor plays being designed and called. I'm talking about not having even the semblance of balance on offense due to a non-existent running game.

I don't want to come off as a Cousins' apologist. He needs to protect the ball better. He needs to do a better job of avoiding telegraphing his throws so he doesn't have so many bat downs. He needs to do a better job at improvising when a play breaks down. I think he and the Vikings braintrust knows those things as well, and I think they've worked on all of them.

But Cousins is NOT the primary reason this team failed last year, nor will he be the reason it fails this year if that fate awaits them. Cousins is a very good QB. He can legitimately threaten every square inch of defendable field with his arm, is accurate, and can make plays. He's a good play action QB provided the running game has some punch and defenses have to respect it. I think for the most part he reads the field well, is a solid character guy that his teammates enjoy playing with, and can get the job done if given a fair chance.

He's not, for lack of a better description, Christian Ponder or a QB like that, but it sure feels like the prevailing sentiment is that he's a real liability for the team. It makes me shake my head when I read that.

If the Vikings have made sufficient improvements to the offensive line and the Dalvin Cook-led stable of running backs is effective this year, I predict Cousins is suddenly going to look a whole lot more effective and start to get mentioned as a strength of the team by all those who claim he can't win big games. I'm not claiming he's going to lead the NFL in passer rating or anything, but this notion that he alone actually hurts the Vikings chances just boggles my mind.

[StumpHunter]

Cousins is a terrible QB when the play breaks down. It will be imperative that the Vikings put him in controlled and predictable situations if they want to win. I think Cousins limits the ceiling for this team, and that they can't win a superbowl without elite defensive play and an excellent running game as well as better than average pass protection. That makes him more or less a glorified game manager, and hopefully that's what they'll ask him to be this year. In the end, that's a very low standard for a QB getting top of the market money, and the Vikings should move on from him ASAP in order to become perennial contenders.

Would you agree that Cousins was put into a lot of less-than-desirable situations last year? And I'm not just talking about plays breaking down. I'm talking about poor plays being designed and called. I'm talking about not having even the semblance of balance on offense due to a non-existent running game.

I don't want to come off as a Cousins' apologist. He needs to protect the ball better. He needs to do a better job of avoiding telegraphing his throws so he doesn't have so many bat downs. He needs to do a better job at improvising when a play breaks down. I think he and the Vikings braintrust knows those things as well, and I think they've worked on all of them.

But Cousins is NOT the primary reason this team failed last year, nor will he be the reason it fails this year if that fate awaits them. Cousins is a very good QB. He can legitimately threaten every square inch of defendable field with his arm, is accurate, and can make plays. He's a good play action QB provided the running game has some punch and defenses have to respect it. I think for the most part he reads the field well, is a solid character guy that his teammates enjoy playing with, and can get the job done if given a fair chance.

He's not, for lack of a better description, Christian Ponder or a QB like that, but it sure feels like the prevailing sentiment is that he's a real liability for the team. It makes me shake my head when I read that.

If the Vikings have made sufficient improvements to the offensive line and the Dalvin Cook-led stable of running backs is effective this year, I predict Cousins is suddenly going to look a whole lot more effective and start to get mentioned as a strength of the team by all those who claim he can't win big games. I'm not claiming he's going to lead the NFL in passer rating or anything, but this notion that he alone actually hurts the Vikings chances just boggles my mind.

It IS a silly notion...that fiesta never claimed to be true.

He said he can't win unless everything is going right, while you argue that he can't be expected to win with things going wrong. Two sides to the same coin.

[fiestavike]

Cousins is a terrible QB when the play breaks down. It will be imperative that the Vikings put him in controlled and predictable situations if they want to win. I think Cousins limits the ceiling for this team, and that they can't win a superbowl without elite defensive play and an excellent running game as well as better than average pass protection. That makes him more or less a glorified game manager, and hopefully that's what they'll ask him to be this year. In the end, that's a very low standard for a QB getting top of the market money, and the Vikings should move on from him ASAP in order to become perennial contenders.

Would you agree that Cousins was put into a lot of less-than-desirable situations last year? And I'm not just talking about plays breaking down. I'm talking about poor plays being designed and called. I'm talking about not having even the semblance of balance on offense due to a non-existent running game.

I don't want to come off as a Cousins' apologist. He needs to protect the ball better. He needs to do a better job of avoiding telegraphing his throws so he doesn't have so many bat downs. He needs to do a better job at improvising when a play breaks down. I think he and the Vikings braintrust knows those things as well, and I think they've worked on all of them.

But Cousins is NOT the primary reason this team failed last year, nor will he be the reason it fails this year if that fate awaits them. Cousins is a very good QB. He can legitimately threaten every square inch of defendable field with his arm, is accurate, and can make plays. He's a good play action QB provided the running game has some punch and defenses have to respect it. I think for the most part he reads the field well, is a solid character guy that his teammates enjoy playing with, and can get the job done if given a fair chance.

He's not, for lack of a better description, Christian Ponder or a QB like that, but it sure feels like the prevailing sentiment is that he's a real liability for the team. It makes me shake my head when I read that.

If the Vikings have made sufficient improvements to the offensive line and the Dalvin Cook-led stable of running backs is effective this year, I predict Cousins is suddenly going to look a whole lot more effective and start to get mentioned as a strength of the team by all those who claim he can't win big games. I'm not claiming he's going to lead the NFL in passer rating or anything, but this notion that he alone actually hurts the Vikings chances just boggles my mind.

Yes, I agree to all of that. He does many things very well. What I said is that Cousins is terrible when the play breaks down and that probably limits the ceiling of the team. I am not saying any of the other things you perhaps have read into my comment. If he can be kept from too many situations where the play breaks down (or the multitude of terrible situations he was in last year), I think he's in position for his greatest year yet. Still, there will be a certain number of plays where things go awry, and Kirk has demonstrated total incompetence in those circumstances. If they can put him in position to be a game manager, I think this team can find balance and even have an outside chance of contending for a title. For that to happen, the rest of the team will have to perform at a very high level. In those circumstances Cousins may thrive and so might the team as a whole. But, to be fair, even a lesser quarterback would probably thrive in those circumstances. Frankly, the odds of creating those circumstances at the level it will take to win it all this year with Cousins at QB do not inspire hope.

[CharVike]

Would you agree that Cousins was put into a lot of less-than-desirable situations last year? And I'm not just talking about plays breaking down. I'm talking about poor plays being designed and called. I'm talking about not having even the semblance of balance on offense due to a non-existent running game.

I don't want to come off as a Cousins' apologist. He needs to protect the ball better. He needs to do a better job of avoiding telegraphing his throws so he doesn't have so many bat downs. He needs to do a better job at improvising when a play breaks down. I think he and the Vikings braintrust knows those things as well, and I think they've worked on all of them.

But Cousins is NOT the primary reason this team failed last year, nor will he be the reason it fails this year if that fate awaits them. Cousins is a very good QB. He can legitimately threaten every square inch of defendable field with his arm, is accurate, and can make plays. He's a good play action QB provided the running game has some punch and defenses have to respect it. I think for the most part he reads the field well, is a solid character guy that his teammates enjoy playing with, and can get the job done if given a fair chance.

He's not, for lack of a better description, Christian Ponder or a QB like that, but it sure feels like the prevailing sentiment is that he's a real liability for the team. It makes me shake my head when I read that.

If the Vikings have made sufficient improvements to the offensive line and the Dalvin Cook-led stable of running backs is effective this year, I predict Cousins is suddenly going to look a whole lot more effective and start to get mentioned as a strength of the team by all those who claim he can't win big games. I'm not claiming he's going to lead the NFL in passer rating or anything, but this notion that he alone actually hurts the Vikings chances just boggles my mind.

Yes, I agree to all of that. He does many things very well. What I said is that Cousins is terrible when the play breaks down and that probably limits the ceiling of the team. I am not saying any of the other things you perhaps have read into my comment. If he can be kept from too many situations where the play breaks down (or the multitude of terrible situations he was in last year), I think he's in position for his greatest year yet. Still, there will be a certain number of plays where things go awry, and Kirk has demonstrated total incompetence in those circumstances. If they can put him in position to be a game manager, I think this team can find balance and even have an outside chance of contending for a title. For that to happen, the rest of the team will have to perform at a very high level. In those circumstances Cousins may thrive and so might the team as a whole. But, to be fair, even a lesser quarterback would probably thrive in those circumstances. Frankly, the odds of creating those circumstances at the level it will take to win it all this year with Cousins at QB do not inspire hope.

When a play breaks down whatever that means. So if a rusher, like Mack, comes in free you expect the QB to avoid that. There's not many QBs that have played the game that can avoid that. M Vick could but he couldn't complete a pass. Brady can't avoid that. He's a statue. If the WR runs the wrong route, another break down, then the QB must know what route he is running. OK. Got it. To win it all we will need to play at a high level across the board. We can't have a FG kicker that can't make a kick which happened last year. We can't have a D that gets smoked when our O scores 30 something which also happened last year. The Pats beat the Rams last year but their D held the Rams in check. Against us the Rams scored whenever they felt like it. That's the QB fault. Got it. Brady would have lost if the Pats allowed the Rams to score whenever they wanted to. I have never seen a QB carry a stiff team to a SB. Many feel R Wilson is the best ever. Not so fast. The LOB got them to the SB. Wilson wouldn't take our team to the SB this year. So maybe he blows also.

[fiestavike]

Yes, I agree to all of that. He does many things very well. What I said is that Cousins is terrible when the play breaks down and that probably limits the ceiling of the team. I am not saying any of the other things you perhaps have read into my comment. If he can be kept from too many situations where the play breaks down (or the multitude of terrible situations he was in last year), I think he's in position for his greatest year yet. Still, there will be a certain number of plays where things go awry, and Kirk has demonstrated total incompetence in those circumstances. If they can put him in position to be a game manager, I think this team can find balance and even have an outside chance of contending for a title. For that to happen, the rest of the team will have to perform at a very high level. In those circumstances Cousins may thrive and so might the team as a whole. But, to be fair, even a lesser quarterback would probably thrive in those circumstances. Frankly, the odds of creating those circumstances at the level it will take to win it all this year with Cousins at QB do not inspire hope.

When a play breaks down whatever that means. So if a rusher, like Mack, comes in free you expect the QB to avoid that. There's not many QBs that have played the game that can avoid that. M Vick could but he couldn't complete a pass. Brady can't avoid that. He's a statue. If the WR runs the wrong route, another break down, then the QB must know what route he is running. OK. Got it. To win it all we will need to play at a high level across the board. We can't have a FG kicker that can't make a kick which happened last year. We can't have a D that gets smoked when our O scores 30 something which also happened last year. The Pats beat the Rams last year but their D held the Rams in check. Against us the Rams scored whenever they felt like it. That's the QB fault. Got it. Brady would have lost if the Pats allowed the Rams to score whenever they wanted to. I have never seen a QB carry a stiff team to a SB. Many feel R Wilson is the best ever. Not so fast. The LOB got them to the SB. Wilson wouldn't take our team to the SB this year. So maybe he blows also.

You are struggling to get my point. Here...try this for an example of being terrible and losing all composure when a play breaks down. Its Kirk's big weakness. It doesn't mean any of the other non-related nonsense you read into my comment.
https://twitter.com/thecheckdown/status ... 3646252032

[fiestavike]

Yes, I agree to all of that. He does many things very well. What I said is that Cousins is terrible when the play breaks down and that probably limits the ceiling of the team. I am not saying any of the other things you perhaps have read into my comment. If he can be kept from too many situations where the play breaks down (or the multitude of terrible situations he was in last year), I think he's in position for his greatest year yet. Still, there will be a certain number of plays where things go awry, and Kirk has demonstrated total incompetence in those circumstances. If they can put him in position to be a game manager, I think this team can find balance and even have an outside chance of contending for a title. For that to happen, the rest of the team will have to perform at a very high level. In those circumstances Cousins may thrive and so might the team as a whole. But, to be fair, even a lesser quarterback would probably thrive in those circumstances. Frankly, the odds of creating those circumstances at the level it will take to win it all this year with Cousins at QB do not inspire hope.

When a play breaks down whatever that means. So if a rusher, like Mack, comes in free you expect the QB to avoid that. There's not many QBs that have played the game that can avoid that. M Vick could but he couldn't complete a pass. Brady can't avoid that. He's a statue. If the WR runs the wrong route, another break down, then the QB must know what route he is running. OK. Got it. To win it all we will need to play at a high level across the board. We can't have a FG kicker that can't make a kick which happened last year. We can't have a D that gets smoked when our O scores 30 something which also happened last year. The Pats beat the Rams last year but their D held the Rams in check. Against us the Rams scored whenever they felt like it. That's the QB fault. Got it. Brady would have lost if the Pats allowed the Rams to score whenever they wanted to. I have never seen a QB carry a stiff team to a SB. Many feel R Wilson is the best ever. Not so fast. The LOB got them to the SB. Wilson wouldn't take our team to the SB this year. So maybe he blows also.

With regard to a rusher, like Mack, coming free, the best thing Kirk Cousins can do is probably to go down of his own volition. With his MO, I don't want him to try to make that play, I want him to avoid making that play into a complete disaster. Throw it out of bounds or go down. Be a game manager and avoid disasters. Put yourself in position to make plays with the things you do well, and punt the ball away if all else fails. THAT is going to be Kirk Cousins at his best. Hopefully that means 25 pass attempts, 15 of those on play action, maybe 10 from outside the pocket, with a couple of those headed for Mike Zimmer.

[CharVike]

When a play breaks down whatever that means. So if a rusher, like Mack, comes in free you expect the QB to avoid that. There's not many QBs that have played the game that can avoid that. M Vick could but he couldn't complete a pass. Brady can't avoid that. He's a statue. If the WR runs the wrong route, another break down, then the QB must know what route he is running. OK. Got it. To win it all we will need to play at a high level across the board. We can't have a FG kicker that can't make a kick which happened last year. We can't have a D that gets smoked when our O scores 30 something which also happened last year. The Pats beat the Rams last year but their D held the Rams in check. Against us the Rams scored whenever they felt like it. That's the QB fault. Got it. Brady would have lost if the Pats allowed the Rams to score whenever they wanted to. I have never seen a QB carry a stiff team to a SB. Many feel R Wilson is the best ever. Not so fast. The LOB got them to the SB. Wilson wouldn't take our team to the SB this year. So maybe he blows also.

With regard to a rusher, like Mack, coming free, the best thing Kirk Cousins can do is probably to go down of his own volition. With his MO, I don't want him to try to make that play, I want him to avoid making that play into a complete disaster. Throw it out of bounds or go down. Be a game manager and avoid disasters. Put yourself in position to make plays with the things you do well, and punt the ball away if all else fails. THAT is going to be Kirk Cousins at his best. Hopefully that means 25 pass attempts, 15 of those on play action, maybe 10 from outside the pocket, with a couple of those headed for Mike Zimmer.

That's if he sees him. Ever hear of blind side. The show is up. Even for the statue Brady. You can be the best game manager but if your FG kicker can't make anything then the game manger means nothing. Our is that wrong also.

[fiestavike]

With regard to a rusher, like Mack, coming free, the best thing Kirk Cousins can do is probably to go down of his own volition. With his MO, I don't want him to try to make that play, I want him to avoid making that play into a complete disaster. Throw it out of bounds or go down. Be a game manager and avoid disasters. Put yourself in position to make plays with the things you do well, and punt the ball away if all else fails. THAT is going to be Kirk Cousins at his best. Hopefully that means 25 pass attempts, 15 of those on play action, maybe 10 from outside the pocket, with a couple of those headed for Mike Zimmer.

That's if he sees him. Ever hear of blind side. The show is up. Even for the statue Brady. You can be the best game manager but if your FG kicker can't make anything then the game manger means nothing. Our is that wrong also.

its just not relevant to anything I've said.

[VikingLord]

It IS a silly notion...that fiesta never claimed to be true.

He said he can't win unless everything is going right, while you argue that he can't be expected to win with things going wrong. Two sides to the same coin.

In reading my response to Fiesta, I can see where you are coming from. And to be fair to Fiesta, I intermixed what he wrote with other things I'm reading about Cousins and the Vikings, which wasn't fair to him.

I guess what I understood Fiesta was saying is that Cousins is a game manager, albeit a highly paid one, along the lines of a Christian Ponder. A QB who is not a strength and in fact is a liability in many key situations.

What I was trying to say is that I see Cousins as a very good QB who has some flaws that can really stand out. So I think we each perceive a different floor and ceiling for him.

[VikingLord]

Yes, I agree to all of that. He does many things very well. What I said is that Cousins is terrible when the play breaks down and that probably limits the ceiling of the team. I am not saying any of the other things you perhaps have read into my comment. If he can be kept from too many situations where the play breaks down (or the multitude of terrible situations he was in last year), I think he's in position for his greatest year yet. Still, there will be a certain number of plays where things go awry, and Kirk has demonstrated total incompetence in those circumstances. If they can put him in position to be a game manager, I think this team can find balance and even have an outside chance of contending for a title. For that to happen, the rest of the team will have to perform at a very high level. In those circumstances Cousins may thrive and so might the team as a whole. But, to be fair, even a lesser quarterback would probably thrive in those circumstances. Frankly, the odds of creating those circumstances at the level it will take to win it all this year with Cousins at QB do not inspire hope.

See my response to Stumphunter, but I guess I see Cousins as much more than a game manager and his ceiling is higher than you see it. To be completely fair, the preponderance of the evidence probably supports your view more than mine at this point and seems to be shared by a sizeable percentage of Vikings fans and others. I have read so many preseason predictions that flat-out state Cousins is a liability that I probably projected some of those onto what you wrote.

I don't think a veteran QB with as many years in the NFL would get anywhere near a contract like that if he was just a game manager or worse, a clear liability. Hopefully this season Cousins will show why the Vikings gave him that big contract.

[CharVike]

Yes, I agree to all of that. He does many things very well. What I said is that Cousins is terrible when the play breaks down and that probably limits the ceiling of the team. I am not saying any of the other things you perhaps have read into my comment. If he can be kept from too many situations where the play breaks down (or the multitude of terrible situations he was in last year), I think he's in position for his greatest year yet. Still, there will be a certain number of plays where things go awry, and Kirk has demonstrated total incompetence in those circumstances. If they can put him in position to be a game manager, I think this team can find balance and even have an outside chance of contending for a title. For that to happen, the rest of the team will have to perform at a very high level. In those circumstances Cousins may thrive and so might the team as a whole. But, to be fair, even a lesser quarterback would probably thrive in those circumstances. Frankly, the odds of creating those circumstances at the level it will take to win it all this year with Cousins at QB do not inspire hope.

See my response to Stumphunter, but I guess I see Cousins as much more than a game manager and his ceiling is higher than you see it. To be completely fair, the preponderance of the evidence probably supports your view more than mine at this point and seems to be shared by a sizeable percentage of Vikings fans and others. I have read so many preseason predictions that flat-out state Cousins is a liability that I probably projected some of those onto what you wrote.

I don't think a veteran QB with as many years in the NFL would get anywhere near a contract like that if he was just a game manager or worse, a clear liability. Hopefully this season Cousins will show why the Vikings gave him that big contract.

Basically if we don't win the Super Bowl Cousins blows and it was stupid to sign him. R Wilson the great one who took the Hawks to two SBs by himself, as some feel, won't get us there. And he's highly paid. To get there we will need to play some D. The Bears only allowed Rodgers 10 points on Thursday well we better do that or better. If it's 20 + then it's the same #### show. I expect a 20-3 win for us. That will be a statement. The Bears laid the blue print follow it and beat it. You couldn't ask for anything better. So Zim needs to coach his players to a much better performance than that. Let's start shutting teams down so the game can be managed.

[fiestavike]

It IS a silly notion...that fiesta never claimed to be true.

He said he can't win unless everything is going right, while you argue that he can't be expected to win with things going wrong. Two sides to the same coin.

In reading my response to Fiesta, I can see where you are coming from. And to be fair to Fiesta, I intermixed what he wrote with other things I'm reading about Cousins and the Vikings, which wasn't fair to him.

I guess what I understood Fiesta was saying is that Cousins is a game manager, albeit a highly paid one, along the lines of a Christian Ponder. A QB who is not a strength and in fact is a liability in many key situations.

What I was trying to say is that I see Cousins as a very good QB who has some flaws that can really stand out. So I think we each perceive a different floor and ceiling for him.

I think we are not analyzing Cousins all that differently, just disagreeing on the impact his particular strengths and weaknesses will have on the ceiling and floor of the teams he plays for.

You are absolutely correct that there are parts of has game that are elite, and that he has talent in many areas to be MUCH MORE than a game manager...BUT, his areas of weakness are so pronounced that really for him to succeed you need to build the kind of team, and call the kind of plays that you would in order to find success with a game manager type QB. The way you would have to play with Kirk to have a team that can realistically win 3 or 4 playoff games against top competition is similar to the way you would have to play with a lesser, game managing QB, and the difference in production in those circumstances might well be negligible. In the end, I'd take a cooler customer with a bit less arm talent in those games, but that doesn't mean you can discount Cousins physical gifts entirely...he is nearly a great QB.

[Purple Martin]

He's being asked to sit back in obvious passing situations with a garbage offensive line and no real running threat and then expected to thread balls into tightly covered receivers when we know that Cousins isn't great at evading pressure, throwing on the run, or taking a lot of contested chances. That is the QB the Vikings have. They have a guy who, like most pro QBs, is going to struggle if his OL can't block consistently in those situations and defenses are up tight to disrupt routes like what the Pats ran on defense.

In the examples he's given, Cousins had time to throw. He just didn't make the right decision, even if it meant to tuck and run for a loss of yardage. I'm glad you admit he has limitations. I don't agree that he doesn't take chances as Diggs and Thielen were up there in contested catches. Cousins does get bailed out quite a bit. I just want people to admit his ball security and decision making is very suspect and needs to be addressed. In essence, he is part of the problem.

Fumbles are failures to protect the ball. Its the ball carrier's responsibility to protect it, and its not the OL's fault if they don't.