Vikings vs Dolphins for Wallace?

[J. Kapp 11]

I've read a lot in this post about how horrible of a mistake it would be to let Harvin walk while ending up with Wallace. As much as the Vikings need help at WR, I think people overestimate Harvin's value to the team.

This is a WR that has never broken 1,000 yard receiving in a year. A player who was out while the Vikings took down teams during the toughest part of their schedule.

Yes, you'd love to keep a player with the kind of skillset that he has ... but is he so detrimental to the team that replacing him with Wallace would be that big of a deal? Heck, replacing him with Wright wasn't all that big of a deal in terms of wins and losses.

I'm not so sure that Wallace / Wright / Rookie isn't a better combination Harvin / Wright / Rookie.

I agree totally.

Comparing Wallace to Simpson is ludicrous. Wallace has a pair of 1,200-yard seasons under his belt. Simpson has had one season where he did anything, and it wasn't nearly as good a season as Wallace had in '12 in a down year. My opinion is also that Wallace has a superior skill set to Percy Harvin AS A RECEIVER. He can't return kicks or run out of the backfield like PH, but he's a more skilled receiver.

That being said, Mike Wallace isn't the perfect free agent. My problem with him is simple. He had a down season in a contract year, so how motivated will he be once a team backs up the Brinks truck?

[mondry]

I don't want them to pay Wallace, he has elite speed but I don't think he'd be good for our offense. As mansquatch said, I'd much prefer a Bowe, Sydney Rice, Brandon marshal type possession receiver that's a threat in their own right. With Adrian and Ponder, I want a WR who can make a 5 yard grab on 3rd and 4 and be nearly impossible to defend while doing it.

I understand speed kills and our offense seems ripe for the deep threat, I just think if it's let's say a 35% success rate, you're still punting 2 out of 3 times on 3rd and short because you're taking deep shots in the first place.

The other thing to consider with a "quick strike" threat is sure scoring quickly is a good thing, I wouldn't ever say it isn't. But scoring quick does put your defense back on the field and we don't have an aggressive steelers defense to support that, we have a cover 2 bend but don't break. The point is, for a ball control offense, it's more important to, well, control the ball, not necessarily score quickly heh. Would hate to get into a shoot out with brees / brady / manning / rodgers because we think we can. I'd rather keep them off the field with 6-10 minute drives!

[losperros]

LOL! I wasn't trying to inadvertantly refute what he wrote but as you know, I have a"special" talent for that sort of thing. I actually agree with him that the Vikings could conceivably trade Harvin and end up with a better overall situation at WR. I just thought it was important to point out that Harvin provides more offense than is indicated by his receiving numbers alone.

I don't think the question before the Vikings is really can Wallace (or Jennings, a rookie, etc.) replace Harvin without anything being lost in the process. Harvin's a uniquely talented player so something would be lost. For the Vikings, I believe it comes down to overall production from their receivers and their offense. It might be impossible to find another player with Harvin's skill set and talent but replacing his production is another matter. It might have to be distributed among several different players but I think it could be done. Honestly, I think the toughest thing to replace might be his return ability and I don't say that to diminish what he can do as a slot receiver or RB, merely because I think he's one of the top 2 or 3 returners in the league.

I hear what you and Cliff are saying. I was just giving you a bad time, Jim, which I love to do. As you know, I'm very biased about the situation because I'm absolutely blown away by Harvin's skills. To me he a big adrenalin shot to an offense that could use more boost in its passing game.

If Harvin's traded, I really don't believe it will have anything to do with being foolish, Craig, do you? I realize we can't blindly trust anything team representatives say but you've read what Frazier and Spielman have to say on this subject. I honestly think they'd like him to remain a Viking and I get the impression you do too. It seems to me that If he's traded, it's going to be because he doesn't want to be a Viking. Maybe it will be due to differences about football matters or maybe it will be because he just wants more money than they're willing to pay him but I really don't get the impression the Vikings want to part ways with Harvin. If they do it, I'm betting it will be because they believe they have to part ways with him. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Frankly, if they could make it work cap-wise, I'd love to see the Vikings sign Wallace, extend Harvin's contract and draft someone like Keenan Allen. In one offseason, they could conceivably transform their WR corps into one of the league's most dangerous and give Ponder all the weapons he could ask for to succeed. It would be a BIG investment in one position and it's probably not practical in cap terms but it's fun to dream.

I see your point about Frazier and Spielman and you're right. I definitely do not think either one underestimates Harvin's skills nor do I think they simply want him off the team. That's especially true of Frazier, given what he's said. And I take him at his word. If Harvin and the Vikings part company, I believe money will be the determining reason.

As for Keenan Allen, I'm not as much of a fan of his as you and many on the board are. While I believe he's a great athlete, I question some of his irritating drops that I've seen, the fact that he didn't always utilize his size the way I think he could have, plus he sometimes looked lost when he was blocking for RBs CJ Anderson and Isi Sofele. I imagine the run blocking can be taught, so maybe it's no big deal. But if the Vikings don't sign Wallace, then maybe they'll want some real explosiveness from whoever they draft at WR. If so, then I believe they can do better than Allen. YMMV

[losperros]

If he has excellent speed, why can't he beat his defender down field? Simpson has good speed- the type of speed needed to be a good WR. He doesn't have elite speed though, which is what Wallace has. What Simpson does have regardless if he can't burn his man is his jumping ability (which we have yet to see) that can garner him some deep catches. I think you need that elite speed on offense to stretch defenses. Wright also has really good speed as he displayed it a few times last year.

Signing Wallace and Harvin means you'd be tying up 25+ mll a year on two WR's ….that's risky if you can't find cheap talent in the draft for other positions.

Simpson does beat DBs down field when he's healthy. He was plagued by back issues this last season, which was acknowledged by Coach Frazier. It's a moot point anyway. Wallace is the better WR of the two and if the Vikings are interested in him, then that more than likely means they'll say good-bye to Simpson.

OTOH, I don't believe that signing Wallace means they'll absolutely cut ties with Harvin. We'll see how the cap plays out and what kind of deal everyone gets. I also think Wallace may ask for more than what the Vikings will pay, let alone whatever amount Harvin looks for.

My opinion is also that Wallace has a superior skill set to Percy Harvin AS A RECEIVER. He can't return kicks or run out of the backfield like PH, but he's a more skilled receiver.

That being said, Mike Wallace isn't the perfect free agent. My problem with him is simple. He had a down season in a contract year, so how motivated will he be once a team backs up the Brinks truck?

I disagree about Wallace being a better receiver than Harvin. Seems to me Harvin is more dependable and just as capable of making a big play as Wallace. Plus the other factors you mention give Harvin an edge as an overall weapon, which really impresses me about the guy.

[MrPurplenGold]

I disagree. Simpson has excellent speed and athleticism, and he's certainly a downfield threat when healthy. What he lacks is the fundamentals that go along with that.

Mike Wallace ran a 4.33 at the combine. Jerome Simpson ran a 4.47

[Mothman]

I hear what you and Cliff are saying. I was just giving you a bad time, Jim, which I love to do. As you know, I'm very biased about the situation because I'm absolutely blown away by Harvin's skills. To me he a big adrenalin shot to an offense that could use more boost in its passing game.

There's no doubt about it...

I see your point about Frazier and Spielman and you're right. I definitely do not think either one underestimates Harvin's skills nor do I think they simply want him off the team. That's especially true of Frazier, given what he's said. And I take him at his word. If Harvin and the Vikings part company, I believe money will be the determining reason.

As for Keenan Allen, I'm not as much of a fan of his as you and many on the board are. While I believe he's a great athlete, I question some of his irritating drops that I've seen, the fact that he didn't always utilize his size the way I think he could have, plus he sometimes looked lost when he was blocking for RBs CJ Anderson and Isi Sofele. I imagine the run blocking can be taught, so maybe it's no big deal. But if the Vikings don't sign Wallace, then maybe they'll want some real explosiveness from whoever they draft at WR. If so, then I believe they can do better than Allen. YMMV

You've seen more of Allen than I have so I appreciate getting your point of view on him. I've seen him do some things I didn't like either (like run his route short of the marker on third down only to catch a pass and come up short of the yardage needed). What I like about him is his versatility. I think he has the best overall skill set of the WRs in this draft and that seems like a good fit for the Vikings needs. He's certainly not the most explosive WR available but I like his experience and production at the position and he might be more prepared to step in and immediately help a pro team than some of the other WRs available.

[Mothman]

Pelissero sounds pretty convinced the Vikings will make a play for Wallace:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Peli ... 030713?t=2

It would be a risky move and would probably mean Harvin would be headed out of town (after 2013 if nothing else). Wallace would bring great outside speed but he's not an elite receiver in terms of his overall skill set so basically, the Vikings would be paying a premium (or over paying, depending on your point of view) for the benefit of serious speed on the outside. If they go this route, they'll still need to draft or sign WR more help, especially since Harvin will probably be more unhappy than ever.

I found this interesting:

Though lacking top 10-type talent, this receiver class is regarded as deep and several players -- Tennessee's Justin Hunter and Cordarrelle Patterson, Clemson's DeAndre Hopkins and Southern Cal's Robert Woods -- could be options in the first two rounds.

But as Spielman pointed out at the combine, young receivers often need time to adjust to the pro game. First-round picks Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd and Kendall Wright struggled to make an impact as rookies last season. The other, A.J. Jenkins, never even had a catch.

"And if you look at historically, it takes some time sometimes for those rookie receivers as they come in, and you've got to look at the success rate of that as well," Spielman said. "Is there a balance on getting maybe one veteran receiver and potentially signing back a Jerome Simpson and then adding a receiver at some point in the draft?"

Hmmm... is that your plan, Mr. Spielman?

[Texas Vike]

Pelissero sounds pretty convinced the Vikings will make a play for Wallace:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Peli ... 030713?t=2

It would be a risky move and would probably mean Harvin would be headed out of town (after 2013 if nothing else). Wallace would bring great outside speed but he's not an elite receiver in terms of his overall skill set so basically, the Vikings would be paying a premium (or over paying, depending on your point of view) for the benefit of serious speed on the outside. If they go this route, they'll still need to draft or sign WR more help, especially since Harvin will probably be more unhappy than ever.

I found this interesting:
Hmmm... is that your plan, Mr. Spielman?

Yeah, for a guy known as "secretive" this sounds pretty transparent. He's absolutely right in recognizing that the WR position is one that generally requires a transition period. Not many explode into the league like Moss did.

[losperros]

Mike Wallace ran a 4.33 at the combine. Jerome Simpson ran a 4.47

And then Simpson clocked a 4.41/40 at his Pro Day. That's moving, even if it's not up to Wallace's speed.

Wallace also wisely trained with track and field coach Joe Walker (who has produced SEC track champions, NCAA track champions, and coached Olympians) to bring his 40 yard dash time down. I can tell you from personal experience that one can shave tenths off one's 40 time with proper technique. I saw Wallace run (and it was a stopwatch time, not electronic). His technique was superb. Very well trained. That said, Wallace is certainly very fast and, yes, faster than Simpson, who is also fast.

Most importantly, Wallace is the better receiver of the two, as I've said in multiple posts. So I'm not sure what you're debating at this point.

[losperros]

You've seen more of Allen than I have so I appreciate getting your point of view on him. I've seen him do some things I didn't like either (like run his route short of the marker on third down only to catch a pass and come up short of the yardage needed). What I like about him is his versatility. I think he has the best overall skill set of the WRs in this draft and that seems like a good fit for the Vikings needs. He's certainly not the most explosive WR available but I like his experience and production at the position and he might be more prepared to step in and immediately help a pro team than some of the other WRs available.

Okay, I see what you mean about liking Allen's versatility. I guess I'm not sure what the Vikings will be looking from the WRs (I think they'll take two) in the upcoming draft. Quite honestly, I was assuming that stretching the field and being explosive was going to be at the top of their list. Then again, if they acquire Wallace, even if Harvin moves on, the Vikings may feel they have the explosive dynamic covered. At that point, they may be more interested in someone who has the versatility that you mentioned.

However, even there I question if Allen will be as complete as some of the other WRs in the draft after, say, maybe two seasons. I like Allen's experience, but don't count those two guys from Tennessee (Cordarrelle Paterson and Justin Hunter) out just yet. Talk about experience, these two guys were stellar weapons on a bad team against SEC defenses.

Spielman chose WRs from the SEC in the last draft. Who knows? That could mean something for the future as well. Of course, Allen was from the Pac 12, which is no slouch either.

I could go on. You know how I am about WRs, especially fast ones.

[headless_norseman]

Then there's the likelihood that Spielman uses the cap spacve and restructuring to retain our own.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/2182 ... ew-vikings

[headless_norseman]

I don't want them to pay Wallace, he has elite speed but I don't think he'd be good for our offense. As mansquatch said, I'd much prefer a Bowe, Sydney Rice, Brandon marshal type possession receiver that's a threat in their own right. With Adrian and Ponder, I want a WR who can make a 5 yard grab on 3rd and 4 and be nearly impossible to defend while doing it.

I understand speed kills and our offense seems ripe for the deep threat, I just think if it's let's say a 35% success rate, you're still punting 2 out of 3 times on 3rd and short because you're taking deep shots in the first place.

The other thing to consider with a "quick strike" threat is sure scoring quickly is a good thing, I wouldn't ever say it isn't. But scoring quick does put your defense back on the field and we don't have an aggressive steelers defense to support that, we have a cover 2 bend but don't break. The point is, for a ball control offense, it's more important to, well, control the ball, not necessarily score quickly heh. Would hate to get into a shoot out with brees / brady / manning / rodgers because we think we can. I'd rather keep them off the field with 6-10 minute drives!

I see what people were saying here, but after hearing several (former) NFL players say several weeks ago the Vikes need that someone to take the top off those D's, we're still pretty much in the same spot without a speed receiver like Wallace. But that might not be the Vikes top priority at the position, either. If they don't take one with our first pick, they may go for the speed guy in the 2nd rnd or later. I'm sure their position is fluid and they have several main routes they are ready to take in the first 2 rounds as it is, though.

[headless_norseman]

Hmmm... is that your plan, Mr. Spielman?

Justt smoke and mirrors for the draft. He's saying nothing that isn't known to the other 32 teams. Even Detroit figured that one out.

......................................................................................................................................................

[losperros]

I don't want them to pay Wallace, he has elite speed but I don't think he'd be good for our offense. As mansquatch said, I'd much prefer a Bowe, Sydney Rice, Brandon marshal type possession receiver that's a threat in their own right. With Adrian and Ponder, I want a WR who can make a 5 yard grab on 3rd and 4 and be nearly impossible to defend while doing it.

I understand speed kills and our offense seems ripe for the deep threat, I just think if it's let's say a 35% success rate, you're still punting 2 out of 3 times on 3rd and short because you're taking deep shots in the first place.

The other thing to consider with a "quick strike" threat is sure scoring quickly is a good thing, I wouldn't ever say it isn't. But scoring quick does put your defense back on the field and we don't have an aggressive steelers defense to support that, we have a cover 2 bend but don't break. The point is, for a ball control offense, it's more important to, well, control the ball, not necessarily score quickly heh. Would hate to get into a shoot out with brees / brady / manning / rodgers because we think we can. I'd rather keep them off the field with 6-10 minute drives!

The problem is when the Vikings absolutely positively must score in a hurry and if they don't have the necessary quick strike weapons to do it, then they could lose the game.

The Vikings can't pretend they don't need a receiver (or two) that can stretch the field. Balance is always best, much better than the dink and dunk passing we saw in the Chili days before Favre arrived.

[mondry]

The problem is when the Vikings absolutely positively must score in a hurry and if they don't have the necessary quick strike weapons to do it, then they could lose the game.

The Vikings can't pretend they don't need a receiver (or two) that can stretch the field. Balance is always best, much better than the dink and dunk passing we saw in the Chili days before Favre arrived.

I don't know, there are plenty of ways to move the ball down the field in a 2 minute drill. What you're talking about sounds like there's 30 seconds left and we're on our own twenty, in that case they would probably have everyone back deep anyway and I'm not sure Wallace helps much in that situation.

What it comes down to for me is how much each type of WR helps throughout an entire game of play. Sure wallace might open the field up a little more for Peterson, that could be a good thing. Not to mention the occasional deep ball completion. Personally, I just think the overall goal should be to consistently stay on the field, and get first downs so you can feed the running game and wear on defenses.

Why do I think that? Well we have a talent in Adrian Peterson that just doesn't come around very often. He's a once in a generation talent, build the offense for him! Second, look at the games we struggled in, the passing game was near non existent and I don't think a deep threat low % WR is the answer to consistency problems. Having a security blanket like Brand Marshal sure would be nice though, especially the kind of guy you can just throw it up to and hope for the best if that's the "worst case" scenario.

Would be cool to get both types of guys though, maybe extend Harvin's role to going deep a little more often and draft a big WR, now that'd be something!