I think this is a great analogy for what he did in 2013. He was an illusionist who only appeared to be a good QB in 2013 and 2017. Like any illusion, the more people see it, the more they will notice the wires, the cards going up someone's sleeve or the trap doors in the stage. Any good illusion will falter under intense scrutiny, and every QB goes through intense scrutiny every year as teams watch the film and figure out where that sleight of hand is happening and take it away.
Illusion or not, he got hot when it mattered in 2017.
If Foles can do it, Cousins can do it, and I'd argue Cousins is a much better overall QB to begin with.
Cousins can't do what Foles did in 2017, only a backup coming in at the end of a season could since any full time starter wouldn't be able to catch anyone off guard.
Cousins needs to do what Flacco did. Be a slightly above average QB for most of his career and then play like the best QB of all time for 4 straight games in the playoffs. It is possible, just not probable and talking about the improbable we hope will happen instead of what the team should actually be trying to do to build a championship team is pretty boring and pointless.
Illusion or not, he got hot when it mattered in 2017.
If Foles can do it, Cousins can do it, and I'd argue Cousins is a much better overall QB to begin with.
Cousins can't do what Foles did in 2017, only a backup coming in at the end of a season could since any full time starter wouldn't be able to catch anyone off guard.
Cousins needs to do what Flacco did. Be a slightly above average QB for most of his career and then play like the best QB of all time for 4 straight games in the playoffs. It is possible, just not probable and talking about the improbable we hope will happen instead of what the team should actually be trying to do to build a championship team is pretty boring and pointless.
Well ####, what the #### do you think they've been doing this offseason!? Building a championship roster. Hot Christ. We have a Hall of Fame caliber WR, future starting QB waiting in the wings, a young offensive line, an aging defense that is slowly getting younger, and a questionable special teams group. We have all the time in the world to rebuild at this point. Right now though we have a chance at making a deep playoff run. Just be happy for once.
I think this is a great analogy for what he did in 2013. He was an illusionist who only appeared to be a good QB in 2013 and 2017. Like any illusion, the more people see it, the more they will notice the wires, the cards going up someone's sleeve or the trap doors in the stage. Any good illusion will falter under intense scrutiny, and every QB goes through intense scrutiny every year as teams watch the film and figure out where that sleight of hand is happening and take it away.
Illusion or not, he got hot when it mattered in 2017.
If Foles can do it, Cousins can do it, and I'd argue Cousins is a much better overall QB to begin with.
Totally agree that Cousins is much better overall.
But make no mistake, if Nick Foles had been the starting QB for the entire season, things likely wouldn’t have turned out the same for Philly. He rode Wentz’ coattails to the playoffs. That’s been Foles’ history. As soon as teams “notice the wires,” he turns from Superman back into Nick Foles again. Even 2013 was an illusion. The Eagles had just hired Chip Kelly and his high-volume offense. Teams hadn’t figured out how to stop them yet. Once they did, neither Foles nor the Eagles were the same, and both Kelly and Foles were out the door.
Foles got very lucky that Carson Wentz carried them through most of 2017.
All this to say … Kirk Cousins has a steeper mountain to climb than Nick Foles in 2017.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:59 pm
It is possible, just not probable
Well, the bread is already in the oven for this season and all things being equal I guess focusing on the possible, no matter how improbable, is the only option we have right now.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:59 pm
and talking about the improbable we hope will happen instead of what the team should actually be trying to do to build a championship team is pretty boring and pointless.
OK, we can always talk about what the team should actually be trying to do, and in fact I think we have talked about that.
Illusion or not, he got hot when it mattered in 2017.
If Foles can do it, Cousins can do it, and I'd argue Cousins is a much better overall QB to begin with.
Totally agree that Cousins is much better overall.
But make no mistake, if Nick Foles had been the starting QB for the entire season, things likely wouldn’t have turned out the same for Philly. He rode Wentz’ coattails to the playoffs. That’s been Foles’ history. As soon as teams “notice the wires,” he turns from Superman back into Nick Foles again. Even 2013 was an illusion. The Eagles had just hired Chip Kelly and his high-volume offense. Teams hadn’t figured out how to stop them yet. Once they did, neither Foles nor the Eagles were the same, and both Kelly and Foles were out the door.
Foles got very lucky that Carson Wentz carried them through most of 2017.
All this to say … Kirk Cousins has a steeper mountain to climb than Nick Foles in 2017.
Its kind of interesting because the Vikings in 2017 also benefited from a low probability performance from an unheralded QB performing well above his former level. In Keenum's case, he did it mostly during the regular season and tailed off in the playoffs, while Foles saved his best for last that season and got hot in the playoffs.
I agree with you that Cousins has the steeper mountain. Still, I have to believe that Cousins of all people is in the best position to shock people precisely because nobody expects him to rise to that level under pressure. He's almost lulled everyone, including Vikings fans, into believing that when the chips are down he won't step up that he's got an excellent opportunity to step up.
Anyway, that's the way I am going to look at it if the Vikings make the playoffs. Cousins is going to become the Jedi Master of QBs and play mind games with the defensive coordinators he will face. They think they know him and he is going to use their overconfidence against them.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:59 pm
It is possible, just not probable
Well, the bread is already in the oven for this season and all things being equal I guess focusing on the possible, no matter how improbable, is the only option we have right now.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:59 pm
and talking about the improbable we hope will happen instead of what the team should actually be trying to do to build a championship team is pretty boring and pointless.
OK, we can always talk about what the team should actually be trying to do, and in fact I think we have talked about that.
Winning the Super Bowl will never be probable for any one team. Any team that has a decent possibility of it is in great shape. We have a decent possibility of it and I'm so glad I don't have to read Stump's inevitable reply that our possibility will be very low because of how badly Kirk sucks.
Team looks much improved. On paper. But signing big names and getting them to play as a team are two very different things. I still remember when the Eagles had their "dream team" free agency. They signed Nnamdi Asomugha, Jason Babin, Cullen Jenkins, Rodgers-Cromartie, Steve Smith, Vince Young, Ronnie Brown, Evan Mathis... and didn't improve from the year before, missing the playoffs again.
I think it's probable the Vikings have an improved (short-term) roster but I don't know about a championship roster. Run defense is most likely the area where they'll improve the most, which was a huge issue last year. Everything else remains to be seen. How fast can the rookie/young OL come together, how much does Pat Pete have left in the tank, can guys like Barr stay healthy, etc.
To me, Cousins isn't really the wildcard, he's probably the stability this year. Whether you love him or hate him, I don't see a guy in year 10 making leaps and bounds in play one way or the other. It's all the other moving pieces that are going to have to work.
S197 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:00 pm
Team looks much improved. On paper. But signing big names and getting them to play as a team are two very different things. I still remember when the Eagles had their "dream team" free agency. They signed Nnamdi Asomugha, Jason Babin, Cullen Jenkins, Rodgers-Cromartie, Steve Smith, Vince Young, Ronnie Brown, Evan Mathis... and didn't improve from the year before, missing the playoffs again.
I think it's probable the Vikings have an improved (short-term) roster but I don't know about a championship roster. Run defense is most likely the area where they'll improve the most, which was a huge issue last year. Everything else remains to be seen. How fast can the rookie/young OL come together, how much does Pat Pete have left in the tank, can guys like Barr stay healthy, etc.
To me, Cousins isn't really the wildcard, he's probably the stability this year. Whether you love him or hate him, I don't see a guy in year 10 making leaps and bounds in play one way or the other. It's all the other moving pieces that are going to have to work.
I agree that Cousins will play well like he always does. How far we go will have more to do with other factors like the Rookie OL and if Hunter is the Hunter we know and love.
S197 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:00 pm
Team looks much improved. On paper. But signing big names and getting them to play as a team are two very different things. I still remember when the Eagles had their "dream team" free agency. They signed Nnamdi Asomugha, Jason Babin, Cullen Jenkins, Rodgers-Cromartie, Steve Smith, Vince Young, Ronnie Brown, Evan Mathis... and didn't improve from the year before, missing the playoffs again.
I think it's probable the Vikings have an improved (short-term) roster but I don't know about a championship roster. Run defense is most likely the area where they'll improve the most, which was a huge issue last year. Everything else remains to be seen. How fast can the rookie/young OL come together, how much does Pat Pete have left in the tank, can guys like Barr stay healthy, etc.
To me, Cousins isn't really the wildcard, he's probably the stability this year. Whether you love him or hate him, I don't see a guy in year 10 making leaps and bounds in play one way or the other. It's all the other moving pieces that are going to have to work.
I agree that Cousins will play well like he always does. How far we go will have more to do with other factors like the Rookie OL and if Hunter is the Hunter we know and love.
I disagree. Teams are so evenly matched now days (the good ones) that one or two plays will make the difference between winning and losing in the playoffs. Every good team has a "Hunter" or a decent OL. The difference is what Cousins can't do. He's not stability, he usually starts slow, has some good games, and lays a stinker here and there. more often than not, he won't make the play that makes the difference. That's why he's a .500 QB. He's a crutch for this team to become one of the top 4.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:56 pm
I agree that Cousins will play well like he always does. How far we go will have more to do with other factors like the Rookie OL and if Hunter is the Hunter we know and love.
I disagree. Teams are so evenly matched now days (the good ones) that one or two plays will make the difference between winning and losing in the playoffs. Every good team has a "Hunter" or a decent OL. The difference is what Cousins can't do. He's not stability, he usually starts slow, has some good games, and lays a stinker here and there. more often than not, he won't make the play that makes the difference. That's why he's a .500 QB. He's a crutch for this team to become one of the top 4.
You have your right to your opinion. I just don't think you could be much more wrong. Only one team in the NFL has a "Hunter". There's no such thing as a 500 QB. Teams win and teams lose. Cousins is one part of the solution. He almost always plays well. You can rely on that. If we have a decent OL than Cousins will play even better. Hunter getting a sack or two and causing a fumble along with the almost always good game from Cousins will win us even more games. Cousins is about the least of our concerns. He will give us good play. We need to get good play from everybody else.
I predict that out of 17 games Cousins will have 13 where he's above average 2 where he's average and 2 where he's below average. If that's not good enough for you than you have unrealistic expectations.
Illusion or not, he got hot when it mattered in 2017.
If Foles can do it, Cousins can do it, and I'd argue Cousins is a much better overall QB to begin with.
Cousins can't do what Foles did in 2017, only a backup coming in at the end of a season could since any full time starter wouldn't be able to catch anyone off guard.
Cousins needs to do what Flacco did. Be a slightly above average QB for most of his career and then play like the best QB of all time for 4 straight games in the playoffs. It is possible, just not probable and talking about the improbable we hope will happen instead of what the team should actually be trying to do to build a championship team is pretty boring and pointless.
Foles didn't catch anyone off guard. You act like it was his 1st or 2nd year and never took a prime time snap. He didn't exactly beat the Falcons into the ground. I saw some of his passes. Pathetic. His D won that game. He only took the snaps. His lack of accuracy is why he has always been a backup. His D was red hot in the playoffs. Teams didn't score mu ch. We scored opening drive and then the Eagles D said no more for you stiffs and they shut us down and scored 7 points when Case gave them a gofer ball. That's playing top notch playoff D. Our D was ice cold and folded up the tents starting in the 2nd half against the Saints. They were knocked out at that point and never got back up. They basically gave up and let that stiff Foles do whatever he wanted. A team playing great D would shut that bum down. Get after him and he will fold. Always did always will. We showed up in Philly with no D. We weren't beating any team that day. Flacco threw a grand total of 22 TDs that season and had a 87 QBR and completed 59 pct of his passes. That sucks. You always forget the defense. In the playoffs the Colts scored 9 and the Pats with Brady scored 13. Never scored in the 2nd half. That's playing hot playoff D. Yes Denver gave them a battle. A kick off return and punt return for TDs helped a little. Then the D picked off Manning to setup the game winning FG. Flacco didn't play like the best of all time at any point that season. His D is what stepped up to the plate. When Brady blows a team is playing great D. If our D plays like that we will march to the show. Start this year by holding Rodgers to 13 points. We win easy. That won't happen with our D. He will shred them for 24 to 28 straight points and they will sit on the ball because the game is over. Not enough time left. I've seen that act. That Raven team played great D when it was needed. That's how a team wins. Crap D a team won't win.
I disagree. Teams are so evenly matched now days (the good ones) that one or two plays will make the difference between winning and losing in the playoffs. Every good team has a "Hunter" or a decent OL. The difference is what Cousins can't do. He's not stability, he usually starts slow, has some good games, and lays a stinker here and there. more often than not, he won't make the play that makes the difference. That's why he's a .500 QB. He's a crutch for this team to become one of the top 4.
You have your right to be wrong. Only one team in the NFL has a "Hunter". There's no such thing as a 500 QB. Teams win and teams lose. Cousins is one part of the solution. He almost always plays well. You can rely on that. If we have a decent OL than Cousins will play even better. Hunter getting a sack or two and causing a fumble along with the almost always good game from Cousins will win us even more games. Cousins is about the least of our concerns. He will give us good play. We need to get good play from everybody else.
I predict that out of 17 games Cousins will have 13 where he's above average 2 where he's average and 2 where he's below average. If that's not good enough for you than you have unrealistic expectations.
There is not a QB in the NFL who plays better against bad defenses than Cousins. In 2018-2019 he was #1 among QBs with a passer rating of 117 against bottom 10 pass defenses, is 10-1-1 and averaged 27 ppg.
There also is not a QB who consistently plays as poorly as Cousins against good defenses though. He has a passer rating of 81 in those games, averaged 15 ppg and is 0-11. These numbers include 2020 btw, so a 3 year sample size.
For context:
Average Passer rating against top 10 passing defenses since 2018 (Cousins includes 2020, all the rest just 2018 and 2019)
Mahomes: 105
Brees: 103
Ryan: 96
Rodgers: 95
Stafford: 93
Dak: 91
Wilson: 89
Carr: 88
Brady:86
Teddy:86 Cousins: 81
Goff: 74
Record against top 10 passing defenses since 2018:
Mahomes: 8-3
Brees: 5-2
Ryan: 2-3
Rodgers: 7-5-1
Stafford: 1-7
Wilson: 4-5
Carr: 1-6 Cousins: 0-11
Brady 7-4
Teddy: 4-5
Goff: 3-6
Dak: 3-6
Average points scored against top 10 passing defenses since 2018:
Mahomes: 31
Brees: 29
Brady: 23
Wilson: 22
Dak: 21
Stafford: 21
Rodgers: 20
Teddy:19
Ryan: 19
Carr: 18
Goff: 18 Cousins: 15
Cousins is the pinnacle of consistency, for good and for bad.
Good news is that only 7 of the 12 teams in the playoffs have been top 10 pass defenses so you almost have a 50/50 chance of not playing one in any given round of the playoffs.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:22 pm
You have your right to be wrong. Only one team in the NFL has a "Hunter". There's no such thing as a 500 QB. Teams win and teams lose. Cousins is one part of the solution. He almost always plays well. You can rely on that. If we have a decent OL than Cousins will play even better. Hunter getting a sack or two and causing a fumble along with the almost always good game from Cousins will win us even more games. Cousins is about the least of our concerns. He will give us good play. We need to get good play from everybody else.
I predict that out of 17 games Cousins will have 13 where he's above average 2 where he's average and 2 where he's below average. If that's not good enough for you than you have unrealistic expectations.
There is not a QB in the NFL who plays better against bad defenses than Cousins. In 2018-2019 he was #1 among QBs with a passer rating of 117 against bottom 10 pass defenses, is 10-1-1 and averaged 27 ppg.
There also is not a QB who consistently plays as poorly as Cousins against good defenses though. He has a passer rating of 81 in those games, averaged 15 ppg and is 0-11. These numbers include 2020 btw, so a 3 year sample size.
For context:
Average Passer rating against top 10 passing defenses since 2018 (Cousins includes 2020, all the rest just 2018 and 2019)
Mahomes: 105
Brees: 103
Ryan: 96
Rodgers: 95
Stafford: 93
Dak: 91
Wilson: 89
Carr: 88
Brady:86
Teddy:86 Cousins: 81
Goff: 74
Record against top 10 passing defenses since 2018:
Mahomes: 8-3
Brees: 5-2
Ryan: 2-3
Rodgers: 7-5-1
Stafford: 1-7
Wilson: 4-5
Carr: 1-6 Cousins: 0-11
Brady 7-4
Teddy: 4-5
Goff: 3-6
Dak: 3-6
Average points scored against top 10 passing defenses since 2018:
Mahomes: 31
Brees: 29
Brady: 23
Wilson: 22
Dak: 21
Stafford: 21
Rodgers: 20
Teddy:19
Ryan: 19
Carr: 18
Goff: 18 Cousins: 15
Cousins is the pinnacle of consistency, for good and for bad.
Good news is that only 7 of the 12 teams in the playoffs have been top 10 pass defenses so you almost have a 50/50 chance of not playing one in any given round of the playoffs.
Based on this Teddy looks like one of the best. Teams will be chasing him once he gets off the Broncos bench. Dak will dominate that garbage division he plays him. That's what winners do. Hello he has the easiest walk. Let him go against Rodgers or Brady. That will tell the story. Say bye bye at that point.
There is not a QB in the NFL who plays better against bad defenses than Cousins. In 2018-2019 he was #1 among QBs with a passer rating of 117 against bottom 10 pass defenses, is 10-1-1 and averaged 27 ppg.
There also is not a QB who consistently plays as poorly as Cousins against good defenses though. He has a passer rating of 81 in those games, averaged 15 ppg and is 0-11. These numbers include 2020 btw, so a 3 year sample size.
For context:
Average Passer rating against top 10 passing defenses since 2018 (Cousins includes 2020, all the rest just 2018 and 2019)
Mahomes: 105
Brees: 103
Ryan: 96
Rodgers: 95
Stafford: 93
Dak: 91
Wilson: 89
Carr: 88
Brady:86
Teddy:86 Cousins: 81
Goff: 74
Record against top 10 passing defenses since 2018:
Mahomes: 8-3
Brees: 5-2
Ryan: 2-3
Rodgers: 7-5-1
Stafford: 1-7
Wilson: 4-5
Carr: 1-6 Cousins: 0-11
Brady 7-4
Teddy: 4-5
Goff: 3-6
Dak: 3-6
Average points scored against top 10 passing defenses since 2018:
Mahomes: 31
Brees: 29
Brady: 23
Wilson: 22
Dak: 21
Stafford: 21
Rodgers: 20
Teddy:19
Ryan: 19
Carr: 18
Goff: 18 Cousins: 15
Cousins is the pinnacle of consistency, for good and for bad.
Good news is that only 7 of the 12 teams in the playoffs have been top 10 pass defenses so you almost have a 50/50 chance of not playing one in any given round of the playoffs.
Based on this Teddy looks like one of the best. Teams will be chasing him once he gets off the Broncos bench. Dak will dominate that garbage division he plays him. That's what winners do. Hello he has the easiest walk. Let him go against Rodgers or Brady. That will tell the story. Say bye bye at that point.
Based on those numbers Teddy is below average against good defenses and it also doesn't include his 2020 #s. This isn't a top 10 list.
Dak plays in the same garbage division that Cousins did before we signed him, but his division has nothing to do with these numbers since these numbers look at how he did against the best defenses, not against his garbage division.
Ironic that you go after Dak for having most of his success against bad teams while defending Cousins. It is almost like you have some sort of bias against Dak.
