Championship Roster

[StumpHunter]

There are teams that have a legit shot at the SB each year and then there is the rest of the NFL.

The last 8 SB teams all were either favorites going into the season (KC, TB, NE, LA) or dominated in the regular season with one of the best rosters in the NFL (SF and Philly).

To win it all you need a lot to go right AND a great team. NE consistently put out a great, SB caliber, team for two decades which is why they won the most SBs during that time.

So if that's the model and New England has mastered that model, then it stands to reason they should still be in the thick of things going forward.

Do you believe they are or will be any time soon now that they've lost Brady? After all, they've got the model for success. Heck, they pretty much set that standard by your estimation. You think they'll be knocking at the door again soon?

And what about the Bucs? Was last year's Bucs team a great team by any measure other than the final result?

Last year's Bucs statistically finished 7th overall in total yards on offense (2nd in passing, 28th running, 3rd scoring) and 6th overall in defensive yards conceded (21st passing, 1st running, 8th scoring). They finished 2nd in their division behind the Saints at 11-5 (Saints were 12-4), and so were on the road for their entire SB run.

After losing to the Chiefs on November 29th of last year, the Bucs stood at 7-5 and in danger of missing the playoffs.

Is that a great team, or a team that got hot at the right time?

It was a great team that stumbled in the middle of the season against 3 other great teams. They had the greatest QB of all time, great WRs, a good Oline, great dline, great linebackers and a really good secondary. They were also never in danger of not making the playoffs, having only to beat 1 of 4 terrible teams to end the season to get in.

The other factor is Brady being new to an offense that is notoriously difficult for QBs to be successful in their first season in. With no off season even Brady took a while to get comfortable in that offense.

We don't have a Brady, or a Mahomes, or Brees or Rodgers so I pointed to 3 teams that were able to at least make the SB with less than ideal QBs. The Rams in particular have a QB who struggles almost as much as Cousins against good defenses, and managed to get to the SB before that bit them in the butt. Really it bit them in the butt earlier in the NFCCG, but one of the most terrible/greatest calls of all time basically gave them the win over the cheating Saints.

That Rams, Philly and SF team are what we should be trying to build. Great defense and better than just about any team at all positions save the QB on offense. If that is what the Vikings have they got a shot.

[VikingLord]

Is that a great team, or a team that got hot at the right time?

It was a great team that stumbled in the middle of the season against 3 other great teams.

I can't remember the last great team that was 7-5 at any point during a regular season and that was on the road for all their playoff games.

You can only credibly write what you wrote about them because they won the Superbowl. 99 times out of 100, a team like that doesn't sniff the Superbowl, much less win it.

They had the greatest QB of all time, great WRs, a good Oline, great dline, great linebackers and a really good secondary. They were also never in danger of not making the playoffs, having only to beat 1 of 4 terrible teams to end the season to get in.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they weren't in danger of not making it in. The only way to be sure of making it into the playoffs is to win the division. The Bucs didn't win their division. They got in as a wildcard, yes, and with a decent final record, but there was no guarantee there had other teams performed better and snagged those wildcard spots.

That Rams, Philly and SF team are what we should be trying to build. Great defense and better than just about any team at all positions save the QB on offense. If that is what the Vikings have they got a shot.

I think if this Vikings team is going to have a shot we'll know based on whether they can consistently run on downs 1 and 2 and consistently limit the run when on defense on the same downs. If they can do that, it takes the pressure off Cousins, and Cousins is very good when he doesn't have to be a hero. Defensively, stopping the run on early downs should help them get off the field more consistently then they managed last year.

Bottom line - if Cousins is the liability against good defenses that you claim he is, then the rest of the team needs to be able to shift the focus away from him, which the above both do. While I'm not convinced Cousins is a liability per se, I will concede that he's rarely stepped up in key situations and been a difference-maker. Hopefully the rest of this Vikings team is now good enough and effective enough to make that fact moot.

[CharVike]

There are teams that have a legit shot at the SB each year and then there is the rest of the NFL.

The last 8 SB teams all were either favorites going into the season (KC, TB, NE, LA) or dominated in the regular season with one of the best rosters in the NFL (SF and Philly).

To win it all you need a lot to go right AND a great team. NE consistently put out a great, SB caliber, team for two decades which is why they won the most SBs during that time.

So if that's the model and New England has mastered that model, then it stands to reason they should still be in the thick of things going forward.

Do you believe they are or will be any time soon now that they've lost Brady? After all, they've got the model for success. Heck, they pretty much set that standard by your estimation. You think they'll be knocking at the door again soon?

And what about the Bucs? Was last year's Bucs team a great team by any measure other than the final result?

Last year's Bucs statistically finished 7th overall in total yards on offense (2nd in passing, 28th running, 3rd scoring) and 6th overall in defensive yards conceded (21st passing, 1st running, 8th scoring). They finished 2nd in their division behind the Saints at 11-5 (Saints were 12-4), and so were on the road for their entire SB run.

After losing to the Chiefs on November 29th of last year, the Bucs stood at 7-5 and in danger of missing the playoffs.

Is that a great team, or a team that got hot at the right time?

There is another piece that the Pats had for most of their run and that was no competition in their division. They walked away with that division. Didn't have to stand up against a division team and fight just to get a victory. I don't recall a HOF QB in that division during that time span. I don't recall a decent QB. They had a 20 year cakewalk into the playoffs. The Pats don't have a model. They got lucky by drafting a QB that turned into the best that ever played the game. Yes Bellicheck is a dam good coach. He's understands the Xs and Os. But that model has zero chance when your QB sucks. There isn't a model out there for a terrible QB. The Bills and Dolphins are providing competition which also makes the run much harder. On another note the Bucs got hot at the right time. That's what it takes.

[CharVike]

The bottom line Bud Grant was asked about losing 4 Super Bowls and if it bothered him. He said NO. Pro Football is entertainment. We did the best we could on that day. That really opened my eyes up about this game. You have watched/followed 9 more seasons than me. We have some nice pieces on this team. The key as always is getting hot in the playoffs. That's the one thing that has to happen or a team won't make the show.

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

The Eagles got hot at the right time. There D was playing at a higher level in the playoffs than during the season. They gave up 17 points in two playoff games. That's a hot team no matter how it's sliced. Our team was better than there team and we were favored in the NFC champ game. They were red hot and smoked us. In the Champ game our D cooled off and Foles ripped us apart. We were the No 1 D. It was like we never played pass defense against that stiff. Our O couldn't do anything against a hot D. They slammed the gate shut. That's not hard to see.

[StumpHunter]

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

The Eagles got hot at the right time. There D was playing at a higher level in the playoffs than during the season. They gave up 17 points in two playoff games. That's a hot team no matter how it's sliced. Our team was better than there team and we were favored in the NFC champ game. They were red hot and smoked us. In the Champ game our D cooled off and Foles ripped us apart. We were the No 1 D. It was like we never played pass defense against that stiff. Our O couldn't do anything against a hot D. They slammed the gate shut. That's not hard to see.

Almost every team takes it up a level in the playoffs, and if they don't they get blown out like the Bears and Pitt did this past season. That is not getting hot, it is playoff football.

[fiestavike]

The Eagles got hot at the right time. There D was playing at a higher level in the playoffs than during the season. They gave up 17 points in two playoff games. That's a hot team no matter how it's sliced. Our team was better than there team and we were favored in the NFC champ game. They were red hot and smoked us. In the Champ game our D cooled off and Foles ripped us apart. We were the No 1 D. It was like we never played pass defense against that stiff. Our O couldn't do anything against a hot D. They slammed the gate shut. That's not hard to see.

Almost every team takes it up a level in the playoffs, and if they don't they get blown out like the Bears and Pitt did this past season. That is not getting hot, it is playoff football.

If the key is "getting hot at the right time", there's not much to a coaches job, nor is there much to discuss.

[fiestavike]

This article could contribute to some really interesting discussion.

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2021/6/29 ... gs-defense

Scheme is great. Having veterans on defense, especially in the secondary, and good luck with health will help too.

But most of where Zimmer and the coaching staff can improve is the calls they make in critical situations. For example, how about NOT going into a prevent defense late in a game like they did in the loss against the Seahawks last year. How about NOT being content to sit on early leads and staying aggressive on offense. These have been Zimmer tendencies that I'd like to see him shake off.

And be unpredictable too. Not reckless, but unpredictable. That would be helpful, especially if the Vikings get into the playoffs.

Having a match between scheme and talent is clearly important, but the scheme Zimmer has run since being in Minnesota has a ceiling too low to make the Vikings true contenders. Installing a system that allows defenders to be proactive rather than reactive is, in my opinion, necessary in an NFL where defenders are so hamstrung. They need to force the offense to react to them, not the other way around, or else we'll see outcomes like we did in Philly in the big games.

[J. Kapp 11]

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

The Eagles got hot at the right time. There D was playing at a higher level in the playoffs than during the season. They gave up 17 points in two playoff games. That's a hot team no matter how it's sliced. Our team was better than there team and we were favored in the NFC champ game. They were red hot and smoked us. In the Champ game our D cooled off and Foles ripped us apart. We were the No 1 D. It was like we never played pass defense against that stiff. Our O couldn't do anything against a hot D. They slammed the gate shut. That's not hard to see.

Philly's defense got hot?

They gave up 613 total yards to the Patriots in the Super Bowl. Tom Brady threw for 505 yards. They should have gotten blown out.

It was their offense, particularly Nick Foles, that got hot.

Out of nowhere, the guy who had completed 56% of his passes in the regular season with a 79 passer rating suddenly turned into vintage Peyton Manning. He had 720 yards passing, 6 TD passes and one TD reception in the NFC Championship Game and the Super Bowl. He's never done anything remotely resembling this, before or since. You need to make sure your facts match your narrative. If this isn't the dictionary definition of a quarterback getting hot at the right time, I don't know what is.

Just because we sucked in the NFCC Game doesn't mean Philly's defense was on fire. We just sucked.

[StumpHunter]

The Eagles got hot at the right time. There D was playing at a higher level in the playoffs than during the season. They gave up 17 points in two playoff games. That's a hot team no matter how it's sliced. Our team was better than there team and we were favored in the NFC champ game. They were red hot and smoked us. In the Champ game our D cooled off and Foles ripped us apart. We were the No 1 D. It was like we never played pass defense against that stiff. Our O couldn't do anything against a hot D. They slammed the gate shut. That's not hard to see.

Philly's defense got hot?

They gave up 613 total yards to the Patriots in the Super Bowl. Tom Brady threw for 505 yards. They should have gotten blown out.

It was their offense, particularly Nick Foles, that got hot.

Out of nowhere, the guy who had completed 56% of his passes in the regular season with a 79 passer rating suddenly turned into vintage Peyton Manning. He had 720 yards passing, 6 TD passes and one TD reception in the NFC Championship Game and the Super Bowl. He's never done anything remotely resembling this, before or since. You need to make sure your facts match your narrative. If this isn't the dictionary definition of a quarterback getting hot at the right time, I don't know what is.

Just because we sucked in the NFCC Game doesn't mean Philly's defense was on fire. We just sucked.

It is a good example of talent, or rather lack of talent, getting exposed. In the regular season you can coach up inferior talent and hide it with scheme. That gets harder in the playoffs when everyone has a full season of tape on you to expose all of your weaknesses and take away all of your strengths. Philly took away what Case did well, and made him do things he struggled with. They also exposed our Oline with superior Dline talent. A better, more talented QB has fewer weaknesses and strengths that are much more difficult to stop. A more talented Oline probably does better against that Dline, although a great Dline typically wins against a great Oline in the playoffs.

Foles didn't have that tape on him, which is why he rolled over two of the best defensive minded coaches in the game despite the complete lack of talent. That is where a little luck helped Philly out.

[VikingLord]

Foles didn't have that tape on him, which is why he rolled over two of the best defensive minded coaches in the game despite the complete lack of talent. That is where a little luck helped Philly out.

Foles played insane, and I'd argue that the tape on him would suggest he could never do what he managed to do during that relatively short stretch where he did it.

As Kapp noted, he'd never done anything like that before, and he's never managed anything like it since.

[VikingLord]

Just because we sucked in the NFCC Game doesn't mean Philly's defense was on fire. We just sucked.

It seemed like the turning point in that game was the pick 6 by the Eagles defense.

After that, Case just seemed hesitant, and for a guy who thrived on being anything but hesitant during the regular season, that was a death-knell for the offense against an even average defense.

The Vikings defense, OTOH, had no answer for Foles, and further, just failed to execute the basics for most of that game. It was like someone slipped something in their water. I don't know if they'd played at a higher level that they'd have kept it close given what happened to the offense, but at least it would have been an entertaining game instead of a blowout snooze fest of Nick Foles' greatest hits.

[StumpHunter]

Foles didn't have that tape on him, which is why he rolled over two of the best defensive minded coaches in the game despite the complete lack of talent. That is where a little luck helped Philly out.

Foles played insane, and I'd argue that the tape on him would suggest he could never do what he managed to do during that relatively short stretch where he did it.

As Kapp noted, he'd never done anything like that before, and he's never managed anything like it since.

Except Foles HAD played like that before. His second season in the NFL he threw 27 TDs in just 10 starts.

His numbers were insane that year, better in many ways than what he did in the playoffs in 2017. 8.5 TD %, 9.1 YPA, 119 passer rating over a 10 game period is incredible. Teams got film on him in that offense though, figured out how to stop him in his 3rd year and he struggled.

If this were baseball, Foles would be a great relief pitcher. Elite for an inning or two, but bad once batters see him more than once. He just doesn't have enough pitches to keep defenses on their heels.

[J. Kapp 11]

Foles played insane, and I'd argue that the tape on him would suggest he could never do what he managed to do during that relatively short stretch where he did it.

As Kapp noted, he'd never done anything like that before, and he's never managed anything like it since.

Except Foles HAD played like that before. His second season in the NFL he threw 27 TDs in just 10 starts.

His numbers were insane that year, better in many ways than what he did in the playoffs in 2017. 8.5 TD %, 9.1 YPA, 119 passer rating over a 10 game period is incredible. Teams got film on him in that offense though, figured out how to stop him in his 3rd year and he struggled.

If this were baseball, Foles would be a great relief pitcher. Elite for an inning or two, but bad once batters see him more than once. He just doesn't have enough pitches to keep defenses on their heels.

It was smoke and mirrors in 2013. The next year, he and Mark Sanchez each started 8 games … Sanchez actually had better numbers. Two years later, he started 11 games for the Rams and had a passer rating in the 60s. Since throwing those 27 TDs in 2013, he’s reached double figures in TD passes exactly twice, with a high of 13. Even in 2017, he was terrible after replacing Carson Wentz until the Vikings game.

Nick Foles has caught fire twice in 9 years. He’s been a complete nothing in his entire career outside of 12 games. We happened to be the opponent in one of the most important, and in one of the worst playoff performances in Vikings history.

[StumpHunter]

Except Foles HAD played like that before. His second season in the NFL he threw 27 TDs in just 10 starts.

His numbers were insane that year, better in many ways than what he did in the playoffs in 2017. 8.5 TD %, 9.1 YPA, 119 passer rating over a 10 game period is incredible. Teams got film on him in that offense though, figured out how to stop him in his 3rd year and he struggled.

If this were baseball, Foles would be a great relief pitcher. Elite for an inning or two, but bad once batters see him more than once. He just doesn't have enough pitches to keep defenses on their heels.

It was smoke and mirrors in 2013.

I think this is a great analogy for what he did in 2013. He was an illusionist who only appeared to be a good QB in 2013 and 2017. Like any illusion, the more people see it, the more they will notice the wires, the cards going up someone's sleeve or the trap doors in the stage. Any good illusion will falter under intense scrutiny, and every QB goes through intense scrutiny every year as teams watch the film and figure out where that sleight of hand is happening and take it away.

[VikingLord]

It was smoke and mirrors in 2013.

I think this is a great analogy for what he did in 2013. He was an illusionist who only appeared to be a good QB in 2013 and 2017. Like any illusion, the more people see it, the more they will notice the wires, the cards going up someone's sleeve or the trap doors in the stage. Any good illusion will falter under intense scrutiny, and every QB goes through intense scrutiny every year as teams watch the film and figure out where that sleight of hand is happening and take it away.

Illusion or not, he got hot when it mattered in 2017.

If Foles can do it, Cousins can do it, and I'd argue Cousins is a much better overall QB to begin with.