Championship Roster

[fiestavike]

I'm really trying to give you reason for optimism... Otherwise, why even bother watching if you know the outcome before the season even starts?

That lack of hope is why I want to move on. Theses posts are my venting over my team, from ownership to management, acknowledging they don't have the makings of a SB team, and that they just want to "make the playoffs and see what happens".

Those should be the goals of teams like the Lions, not a team that has had the consistent regular season success the Vikings have had historically. I am tired of just making the playoffs. I want more. Vikings fans deserve more.

I think the Vikings under the Wilfs are clearly trying to win it all. It might be fair to say that 'the group' and McCombs were content to field merely competitive teams, but the Wilfs are in it to win it. It's not an easy thing to do.

[fiestavike]

This article could contribute to some really interesting discussion.

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2021/6/29 ... gs-defense

Mike Zimmer said during a press conference a few months ago that he was making some scheme changes on defense, indicating, “some of it is big change, some of it is minor tweaks.” Both Zimmer and co-Defensive Coordinator Andre Patterson talked about the meetings the Vikings’ defensive coaching staff had early in the off-season, and Patterson elaborated on them a little more after mini-camp:

As a defensive staff, we did a lot of work on studying different fronts, different coverages around the league, and even some in college football that people are doing to handle what offenses are doing today. It reminded me when me and Zim were in Dallas, I think it was after the 2000 season, and we had been running the same defense forever, and we got together and studied and put together the scheme that we use now. It was an off-season that was a lot of learning, a lot of us growing as coaches, and I felt that’s what happened this off-season. We spent a lot of time studying and working and evaluating different fronts and different coverages that you can use in different situations. And I think we got better as a coaching staff, and I think we came up with some things that I think are going to help our players.

Zimmer isn’t often regarded as the innovator he has been as a defensive coordinator, perhaps due to his old-school demeanor, but he has done a lot to evolve his scheme over the years, keeping it fresh and offenses guessing, and following the 2019 season was looking to make more substantial changes in that regard. But Covid got in the way of that last year, as did the injury losses and turnover, so he put it off until this off-season, where all signs point to some significant scheme changes, not to mention personnel changes as well.

[VikingLord]

I'm really trying to give you reason for optimism... Otherwise, why even bother watching if you know the outcome before the season even starts?

That lack of hope is why I want to move on. Theses posts are my venting over my team, from ownership to management, acknowledging they don't have the makings of a SB team, and that they just want to "make the playoffs and see what happens".

Those should be the goals of teams like the Lions, not a team that has had the consistent regular season success the Vikings have had historically. I am tired of just making the playoffs. I want more. Vikings fans deserve more.

I understand where you're coming from. I've been a fan of this team for more years than I care to count now and I get the frustration.

Still, over those years I've watched Vikings teams like the '98 and '09 team that had it all lined up for them and failed. I've watched the teams like the '87 and '17 team that seemed to catch lightning in a bottle and failed. What I've taken from those experiences is that there is no sure way to win it all. Whether the team has everything perfectly lined up from top to bottom or the improbable comes together for a season, there is no guarantee. There is no formula that produces Superbowl appearances or wins.

And while I would definitely like to believe the Vikings have it all lined up from top to bottom, from the GM to the head coach to the QB to the other players, in some ways, and especially with the history of this team because they have had that over periods of their history (especially in the early '70s), its better if they don't because then they can only surprise us to the upside. That NFCCG loss in '98 was tough to stomach. Ditto for the loss to the Saints. With this team's history of shooting itself in both feet at the worst possible times, I'd almost rather go into a season where the expectations are lower and they surprise me and everyone else by outperforming.

It would be great, and the fans of this team above all others definitely deserve it, to see the Vikings finally be the team that catches fire at the right time, has the big breaks go its way, and achieves what few thought possible at the beginning of the season. Believing that is possible for this team is what keeps me going, because as you note, acknowledging the alternative is just too depressing.

If I have to stomach another loss in a big playoff game, the losses where they shouldn't have been there in the first place are easier to take than the losses where they should have won are. I like the fact that nobody is predicting this team to have success this year. I like the fact that the pressure is on the Packers. I like the fact that the Vikings players and coaches can legit have a chip on their shoulders all season. I like the fact that Cousins has his doubters. He has less to lose.

Just don't give up hope. One of these days it will be our day, and maybe sooner than you think.

[VikingLord]

This article could contribute to some really interesting discussion.

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2021/6/29 ... gs-defense

Mike Zimmer said during a press conference a few months ago that he was making some scheme changes on defense, indicating, “some of it is big change, some of it is minor tweaks.” Both Zimmer and co-Defensive Coordinator Andre Patterson talked about the meetings the Vikings’ defensive coaching staff had early in the off-season, and Patterson elaborated on them a little more after mini-camp:

As a defensive staff, we did a lot of work on studying different fronts, different coverages around the league, and even some in college football that people are doing to handle what offenses are doing today. It reminded me when me and Zim were in Dallas, I think it was after the 2000 season, and we had been running the same defense forever, and we got together and studied and put together the scheme that we use now. It was an off-season that was a lot of learning, a lot of us growing as coaches, and I felt that’s what happened this off-season. We spent a lot of time studying and working and evaluating different fronts and different coverages that you can use in different situations. And I think we got better as a coaching staff, and I think we came up with some things that I think are going to help our players.

Zimmer isn’t often regarded as the innovator he has been as a defensive coordinator, perhaps due to his old-school demeanor, but he has done a lot to evolve his scheme over the years, keeping it fresh and offenses guessing, and following the 2019 season was looking to make more substantial changes in that regard. But Covid got in the way of that last year, as did the injury losses and turnover, so he put it off until this off-season, where all signs point to some significant scheme changes, not to mention personnel changes as well.

Scheme is great. Having veterans on defense, especially in the secondary, and good luck with health will help too.

But most of where Zimmer and the coaching staff can improve is the calls they make in critical situations. For example, how about NOT going into a prevent defense late in a game like they did in the loss against the Seahawks last year. How about NOT being content to sit on early leads and staying aggressive on offense. These have been Zimmer tendencies that I'd like to see him shake off.

And be unpredictable too. Not reckless, but unpredictable. That would be helpful, especially if the Vikings get into the playoffs.

[StumpHunter]

This article could contribute to some really interesting discussion.

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2021/6/29 ... gs-defense

Scheme is great. Having veterans on defense, especially in the secondary, and good luck with health will help too.

But most of where Zimmer and the coaching staff can improve is the calls they make in critical situations. For example, how about NOT going into a prevent defense late in a game like they did in the loss against the Seahawks last year. How about NOT being content to sit on early leads and staying aggressive on offense. These have been Zimmer tendencies that I'd like to see him shake off.

And be unpredictable too. Not reckless, but unpredictable. That would be helpful, especially if the Vikings get into the playoffs.

In that Seattle game the Vikings were super aggressive going for it on 4th down to try and prevent Wilson from getting the ball back. Whether they went into prevent mode after they turned it over on downs is hard to say since our secondary and pass rush was so bad it seemed like they were in prevent mode most of the season.

Zimmer has also never lost a regular season game going into the 4th qtr with a lead, only lost 6 games leading going into the 3rd and has only lost 1 game with a multiple score lead going into the third.

This isn't really an issue that is costing the Vikings wins, it is just something fans perceive as an issue.

[CharVike]

That lack of hope is why I want to move on. Theses posts are my venting over my team, from ownership to management, acknowledging they don't have the makings of a SB team, and that they just want to "make the playoffs and see what happens".

Those should be the goals of teams like the Lions, not a team that has had the consistent regular season success the Vikings have had historically. I am tired of just making the playoffs. I want more. Vikings fans deserve more.

I understand where you're coming from. I've been a fan of this team for more years than I care to count now and I get the frustration.

Still, over those years I've watched Vikings teams like the '98 and '09 team that had it all lined up for them and failed. I've watched the teams like the '87 and '17 team that seemed to catch lightning in a bottle and failed. What I've taken from those experiences is that there is no sure way to win it all. Whether the team has everything perfectly lined up from top to bottom or the improbable comes together for a season, there is no guarantee. There is no formula that produces Superbowl appearances or wins.

And while I would definitely like to believe the Vikings have it all lined up from top to bottom, from the GM to the head coach to the QB to the other players, in some ways, and especially with the history of this team because they have had that over periods of their history (especially in the early '70s), its better if they don't because then they can only surprise us to the upside. That NFCCG loss in '98 was tough to stomach. Ditto for the loss to the Saints. With this team's history of shooting itself in both feet at the worst possible times, I'd almost rather go into a season where the expectations are lower and they surprise me and everyone else by outperforming.

It would be great, and the fans of this team above all others definitely deserve it, to see the Vikings finally be the team that catches fire at the right time, has the big breaks go its way, and achieves what few thought possible at the beginning of the season. Believing that is possible for this team is what keeps me going, because as you note, acknowledging the alternative is just too depressing.

If I have to stomach another loss in a big playoff game, the losses where they shouldn't have been there in the first place are easier to take than the losses where they should have won are. I like the fact that nobody is predicting this team to have success this year. I like the fact that the pressure is on the Packers. I like the fact that the Vikings players and coaches can legit have a chip on their shoulders all season. I like the fact that Cousins has his doubters. He has less to lose.

Just don't give up hope. One of these days it will be our day, and maybe sooner than you think.

That's a dam good post. Thanks for a little optimism. I can post some downers myself. I like the fact that nobody is talking about us in a positive way. I like the way Zim is attacking the roster. He's doing everything in his power to get this D playing some good football. That's key for us. If you can't play defense you have no chance. Plus he's even adding some good depth. He's all in and has shown that he can build a D. He didn't even mess with the D in the draft. He got players that have been in the NFL. They understand the pro game and pro players. Cousins doesn't have too many admirers. Now it's up to him.

[StanM]

That lack of hope is why I want to move on. Theses posts are my venting over my team, from ownership to management, acknowledging they don't have the makings of a SB team, and that they just want to "make the playoffs and see what happens".

Those should be the goals of teams like the Lions, not a team that has had the consistent regular season success the Vikings have had historically. I am tired of just making the playoffs. I want more. Vikings fans deserve more.

I understand where you're coming from. I've been a fan of this team for more years than I care to count now and I get the frustration.

Still, over those years I've watched Vikings teams like the '98 and '09 team that had it all lined up for them and failed. I've watched the teams like the '87 and '17 team that seemed to catch lightning in a bottle and failed. What I've taken from those experiences is that there is no sure way to win it all. Whether the team has everything perfectly lined up from top to bottom or the improbable comes together for a season, there is no guarantee. There is no formula that produces Superbowl appearances or wins.

And while I would definitely like to believe the Vikings have it all lined up from top to bottom, from the GM to the head coach to the QB to the other players, in some ways, and especially with the history of this team because they have had that over periods of their history (especially in the early '70s), its better if they don't because then they can only surprise us to the upside. That NFCCG loss in '98 was tough to stomach. Ditto for the loss to the Saints. With this team's history of shooting itself in both feet at the worst possible times, I'd almost rather go into a season where the expectations are lower and they surprise me and everyone else by outperforming.

It would be great, and the fans of this team above all others definitely deserve it, to see the Vikings finally be the team that catches fire at the right time, has the big breaks go its way, and achieves what few thought possible at the beginning of the season. Believing that is possible for this team is what keeps me going, because as you note, acknowledging the alternative is just too depressing.

If I have to stomach another loss in a big playoff game, the losses where they shouldn't have been there in the first place are easier to take than the losses where they should have won are. I like the fact that nobody is predicting this team to have success this year. I like the fact that the pressure is on the Packers. I like the fact that the Vikings players and coaches can legit have a chip on their shoulders all season. I like the fact that Cousins has his doubters. He has less to lose.

Just don't give up hope. One of these days it will be our day, and maybe sooner than you think.

I have been following the Vikings since game one in 1961 when I was nine years old. During that time I have seen every team that looked like they could win it all as well as the disasters.

While I share your hope the reality is that sports and fate owe us nothing. I was the most amped up about this team the year of the Drew Pearson fiasco when the bottom dropped out at the end of the game. Since then I haven’t let the highs get too high and lows too low. My favorite sport in the summer is Sprint Car racing where disappointments are amplified by wadded up cars, blown engines, flipping over the fence and out of the park and all kinds of crazy things. I think the uncertainty of that sport makes following the Vikings and their ups and downs easier.

Bottom line, as the Stones song “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” sums up sports. I hope they win it one of these years but for me the ever changing rosters due to free agency would water it down. It would have been more satisfying for them to win it in the 70’s when players didn’t move around as much. These days a significant number of players are like one year rentals and we don’t have time to get to know them before they’re gone. Lately it has become obvious what a huge advantage home field advantage throughout the playoffs is. I think they will need that to happen in order for them to win it all. They always seem to find a way to slump and not reach that milestone. If they manage to do that I will feel going in that they have a legitimate chance.

[CharVike]

I understand where you're coming from. I've been a fan of this team for more years than I care to count now and I get the frustration.

Still, over those years I've watched Vikings teams like the '98 and '09 team that had it all lined up for them and failed. I've watched the teams like the '87 and '17 team that seemed to catch lightning in a bottle and failed. What I've taken from those experiences is that there is no sure way to win it all. Whether the team has everything perfectly lined up from top to bottom or the improbable comes together for a season, there is no guarantee. There is no formula that produces Superbowl appearances or wins.

And while I would definitely like to believe the Vikings have it all lined up from top to bottom, from the GM to the head coach to the QB to the other players, in some ways, and especially with the history of this team because they have had that over periods of their history (especially in the early '70s), its better if they don't because then they can only surprise us to the upside. That NFCCG loss in '98 was tough to stomach. Ditto for the loss to the Saints. With this team's history of shooting itself in both feet at the worst possible times, I'd almost rather go into a season where the expectations are lower and they surprise me and everyone else by outperforming.

It would be great, and the fans of this team above all others definitely deserve it, to see the Vikings finally be the team that catches fire at the right time, has the big breaks go its way, and achieves what few thought possible at the beginning of the season. Believing that is possible for this team is what keeps me going, because as you note, acknowledging the alternative is just too depressing.

If I have to stomach another loss in a big playoff game, the losses where they shouldn't have been there in the first place are easier to take than the losses where they should have won are. I like the fact that nobody is predicting this team to have success this year. I like the fact that the pressure is on the Packers. I like the fact that the Vikings players and coaches can legit have a chip on their shoulders all season. I like the fact that Cousins has his doubters. He has less to lose.

Just don't give up hope. One of these days it will be our day, and maybe sooner than you think.

I have been following the Vikings since game one in 1961 when I was nine years old. During that time I have seen every team that looked like they could win it all as well as the disasters.

While I share your hope the reality is that sports and fate owe us nothing. I was the most amped up about this team the year of the Drew Pearson fiasco when the bottom dropped out at the end of the game. Since then I haven’t let the highs get too high and lows too low. My favorite sport in the summer is Sprint Car racing where disappointments are amplified by wadded up cars, blown engines, flipping over the fence and out of the park and all kinds of crazy things. I think the uncertainty of that sport makes following the Vikings and their ups and downs easier.

Bottom line, as the Stones song “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” sums up sports. I hope they win it one of these years but for me the ever changing rosters due to free agency would water it down. It would have been more satisfying for them to win it in the 70’s when players didn’t move around as much. These days a significant number of players are like one year rentals and we don’t have time to get to know them before they’re gone. Lately it has become obvious what a huge advantage home field advantage throughout the playoffs is. I think they will need that to happen in order for them to win it all. They always seem to find a way to slump and not reach that milestone. If they manage to do that I will feel going in that they have a legitimate chance.

The bottom line Bud Grant was asked about losing 4 Super Bowls and if it bothered him. He said NO. Pro Football is entertainment. We did the best we could on that day. That really opened my eyes up about this game. You have watched/followed 9 more seasons than me. We have some nice pieces on this team. The key as always is getting hot in the playoffs. That's the one thing that has to happen or a team won't make the show.

[StumpHunter]

I have been following the Vikings since game one in 1961 when I was nine years old. During that time I have seen every team that looked like they could win it all as well as the disasters.

While I share your hope the reality is that sports and fate owe us nothing. I was the most amped up about this team the year of the Drew Pearson fiasco when the bottom dropped out at the end of the game. Since then I haven’t let the highs get too high and lows too low. My favorite sport in the summer is Sprint Car racing where disappointments are amplified by wadded up cars, blown engines, flipping over the fence and out of the park and all kinds of crazy things. I think the uncertainty of that sport makes following the Vikings and their ups and downs easier.

Bottom line, as the Stones song “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” sums up sports. I hope they win it one of these years but for me the ever changing rosters due to free agency would water it down. It would have been more satisfying for them to win it in the 70’s when players didn’t move around as much. These days a significant number of players are like one year rentals and we don’t have time to get to know them before they’re gone. Lately it has become obvious what a huge advantage home field advantage throughout the playoffs is. I think they will need that to happen in order for them to win it all. They always seem to find a way to slump and not reach that milestone. If they manage to do that I will feel going in that they have a legitimate chance.

The bottom line Bud Grant was asked about losing 4 Super Bowls and if it bothered him. He said NO. Pro Football is entertainment. We did the best we could on that day. That really opened my eyes up about this game. You have watched/followed 9 more seasons than me. We have some nice pieces on this team. The key as always is getting hot in the playoffs. That's the one thing that has to happen or a team won't make the show.

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

[CharVike]

The bottom line Bud Grant was asked about losing 4 Super Bowls and if it bothered him. He said NO. Pro Football is entertainment. We did the best we could on that day. That really opened my eyes up about this game. You have watched/followed 9 more seasons than me. We have some nice pieces on this team. The key as always is getting hot in the playoffs. That's the one thing that has to happen or a team won't make the show.

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

Perhaps Brady knows how to get a team hot. He did it with the Bucs. I know you can't win in the playoffs if you are not hot or play like crap. Don't forget the Pats had the GOAT also. If they had Teddy, Ponder and Case it would have been different. Maybe they wouldn't have waited 10 years between Super Bowl wins. More than likely they wouldn't even make a Super Bowl.

[VikingLord]

The bottom line Bud Grant was asked about losing 4 Super Bowls and if it bothered him. He said NO. Pro Football is entertainment. We did the best we could on that day. That really opened my eyes up about this game. You have watched/followed 9 more seasons than me. We have some nice pieces on this team. The key as always is getting hot in the playoffs. That's the one thing that has to happen or a team won't make the show.

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

So you're claiming what the Patriots achieved is because of some great master plan they executed to perfection?

What is the first step of that model? Draft a QB in the 6th round who will become the next great QB and play at the highest level for 2+ decades for your team?

Obviously the Patriots didn't just get hot at the right time to do what they managed to do. But neither can you credibly claim they didn't stumble into what they did manage to do and got incredibly lucky to find a player like Brady in the 6th round.

You need some things to go your way. To do it over a long period of time you need a lot of things to go your way, or one really, unbelievably big thing to go your way.

[VikingLord]

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

Perhaps Brady knows how to get a team hot. He did it with the Bucs. I know you can't win in the playoffs if you are not hot or play like crap. Don't forget the Pats had the GOAT also. If they had Teddy, Ponder and Case it would have been different. Maybe they wouldn't have waited 10 years between Super Bowl wins. More than likely they wouldn't even make a Super Bowl.

Yeah, for most of the regular season the Bucs weren't exactly lighting the world on fire. IIRC, they were in danger of missing the playoffs altogether at one point and weren't playing well at all.

[VikingLord]

While I share your hope the reality is that sports and fate owe us nothing. I was the most amped up about this team the year of the Drew Pearson fiasco when the bottom dropped out at the end of the game.

The '98 team was the one I thought couldn't miss.

Bottom line, as the Stones song “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” sums up sports. I hope they win it one of these years but for me the ever changing rosters due to free agency would water it down. It would have been more satisfying for them to win it in the 70’s when players didn’t move around as much. These days a significant number of players are like one year rentals and we don’t have time to get to know them before they’re gone. Lately it has become obvious what a huge advantage home field advantage throughout the playoffs is. I think they will need that to happen in order for them to win it all. They always seem to find a way to slump and not reach that milestone. If they manage to do that I will feel going in that they have a legitimate chance.

HFA should be an advantage. However, as that '98 team and the '75 team you mentioned illustrate, that is no guarantee.

[StumpHunter]

The Patriots won 6 SBs in the past two decades because they know how to get hot at the right time while other teams don't?

So you're claiming what the Patriots achieved is because of some great master plan they executed to perfection?

What is the first step of that model? Draft a QB in the 6th round who will become the next great QB and play at the highest level for 2+ decades for your team?

Obviously the Patriots didn't just get hot at the right time to do what they managed to do. But neither can you credibly claim they didn't stumble into what they did manage to do and got incredibly lucky to find a player like Brady in the 6th round.

You need some things to go your way. To do it over a long period of time you need a lot of things to go your way, or one really, unbelievably big thing to go your way.

There are teams that have a legit shot at the SB each year and then there is the rest of the NFL.

The last 8 SB teams all were either favorites going into the season (KC, TB, NE, LA) or dominated in the regular season with one of the best rosters in the NFL (SF and Philly).

To win it all you need a lot to go right AND a great team. NE consistently put out a great, SB caliber, team for two decades which is why they won the most SBs during that time.

Realistically, in order for the Vikings to win it all, they need a team as good as LA, SF or Philly. Top 5 Oline, Top 5 dline, top 10 secondary and top 10 receivers.

The dline is much improved over last year, but without a huge upgraded at RDE, it is not going to be top 5. Above average pass rush is likely, elite is out of the question.

The Oline will not dominate other teams like LA's, SF's and Philly's did. They can be competent though, and Oline was the least important part of that Philly SB win, even if it was super important for SF and LA to make the SB.

Top 10 secondary is possible, but unlikely. If Breeland has a similar season to last year, and Peterson has a comeback year, and Woods doesn't continue to suck, and Smith doesn't fall off due to age, it can be top 10.

Receiver we are as good or better than SF and Philly.

There are moves the Vikings could make to get much better on Dline. Griffen, in a down year bouncing from system to system, was still the 32nd best pass rushing DE in the NFL. That is a huge jump from the 108th best Weatherly and the 89th best Wonnum. You bring him back, cut Weatherly, and this Dline would have 3 legit pass rushers (Hunter, Richardson and Griffen) and would be feared.

The secondary we will have to trust Zimmer with. There is potential there, it just needs to be brought out.

Oline will likely be the goat once again this season. They will look bad in losses (just like every Oline), will not grade well and fans will be saying once again that "if we can just fix this line, we can be really good". There is no fixing it, there is nothing really to fix. It is inevitable.

[VikingLord]

There are teams that have a legit shot at the SB each year and then there is the rest of the NFL.

The last 8 SB teams all were either favorites going into the season (KC, TB, NE, LA) or dominated in the regular season with one of the best rosters in the NFL (SF and Philly).

To win it all you need a lot to go right AND a great team. NE consistently put out a great, SB caliber, team for two decades which is why they won the most SBs during that time.

So if that's the model and New England has mastered that model, then it stands to reason they should still be in the thick of things going forward.

Do you believe they are or will be any time soon now that they've lost Brady? After all, they've got the model for success. Heck, they pretty much set that standard by your estimation. You think they'll be knocking at the door again soon?

And what about the Bucs? Was last year's Bucs team a great team by any measure other than the final result?

Last year's Bucs statistically finished 7th overall in total yards on offense (2nd in passing, 28th running, 3rd scoring) and 6th overall in defensive yards conceded (21st passing, 1st running, 8th scoring). They finished 2nd in their division behind the Saints at 11-5 (Saints were 12-4), and so were on the road for their entire SB run.

After losing to the Chiefs on November 29th of last year, the Bucs stood at 7-5 and in danger of missing the playoffs.

Is that a great team, or a team that got hot at the right time?