Vikings vs Panthers

[psjordan]

If the thought process was to help the DB's, which is certainly plausible, then why trade him away in less than a month? ... That's a lot of egg on your face.

Well I understand fans making the comment but I don't understand the actual meaning? Has Rick taken a lot of heat from NFL types on the YN in-and-out transactions? Not that I've seen. In fact it seems most NFL types understood why it happened, and the reactionary fan base (not you) cried it was a travesty. I just don't see the huge embarasment/screw up here, in a league where Wentz counts $60M against next year's cap? Maybe they got rid of YN because A) the rooks were holding their own on D, and B) he told the Vikes he wanted a future fortune? I mean, circumstances change week to week in the NFL. I can't throw stones at decisions made at point A in time when a lot of things may have changed by point B in time.

Maybe. But if that's the reasonable response then surely there would be copycats. Did anyone else trade down for that many picks? You also need a trade partner to do said trade downs, so there were a lot of teams actively willing to part with picks this year. So either Rick is smarter than 31 other GM's or it wasn't a very good strategy.

Oh I don't think those are the only two possibilities. IMO Rick has provided a fair amount of talent for this team over the years, again I would say above average but no idea how to "rank" GM's. Personally I don't really care HOW that happens. Whether it's trading down, trading up, FA's, undrafted, etc. Let's put it this way - I think he has been better at his job than our coaching staff has been at theirs. Neither one is best-in-NFL class, neither one is worst in league. But IMO we have undercoached the talent provided.

You misunderstand me.

You are correct, I did. To your point, someone brought it up earlier this season and I asked which teams in the NFL had a "starting caliber" backup QB? I don't know if Mannion is any better than you or me, but there is a dearth of starting-caliber QB's in the NFL, and your point of Garropalo sp? in NE kind of proves it - having a starting caliber backup is such an embarassment of riches that it's incredibly hard not to trade them away. GB learned their lesson with Favre/Rogers sure, but how does anyone know if Love is a better NFL QB than Mannion? After tearing things up, why did NO get rid of Teddy and now have to rely on Swiss Army knife? It's just not really feasible to have a known, "good" backup QB in today's NFL. Everybody hopes their backup can step in and be good, but there's a big difference between hoping and KNOWING that's the case.

What's ironic about this is Cousins is the absolute embodiment of Rick's failure. Cousins was a mid-round pick that was taken as a contingency. He wasn't drafted in Washington to be a starter. RG3 was the starter and the Redskin's gave up a ton to trade up to get him. But even though they had that much faith in RG3, they still took Cousins as a contingency. That's smart drafting.

First time I've seen WAS accused of THAT. Anyways, my view is much more geared to what level of QB play does Kirk bring to our team? I really don't care about his history before wearing purple, in fact I don't even care what he's done up to yesterday TBH. I only really care about what he's going to do in the next game.

I mean, if we signed Kirk as a $100K UDFA when he came into the league would we feel any better about having him start for us against JAX this weekend?

[S197]

Well I understand fans making the comment but I don't understand the actual meaning? Has Rick taken a lot of heat from NFL types on the YN in-and-out transactions? Not that I've seen. In fact it seems most NFL types understood why it happened, and the reactionary fan base (not you) cried it was a travesty. I just don't see the huge embarasment/screw up here, in a league where Wentz counts $60M against next year's cap? Maybe they got rid of YN because A) the rooks were holding their own on D, and B) he told the Vikes he wanted a future fortune? I mean, circumstances change week to week in the NFL. I can't throw stones at decisions made at point A in time when a lot of things may have changed by point B in time.

Considering our pass rush has been sub par to put it lightly, I think scenario A is unlikely. The Vikings should have done their due diligence prior to signing, which would eliminate scenario B. The biggest accolade I've seen Spielman get in the trade is not falling victim to sunk cost fallacy. I don't think anyone really needs to come out and state the obvious, which was the Yannick trade was an awful one for the Vikings. It's rather self-evident.

You are correct, I did. To your point, someone brought it up earlier this season and I asked which teams in the NFL had a "starting caliber" backup QB? I don't know if Mannion is any better than you or me, but there is a dearth of starting-caliber QB's in the NFL, and your point of Garropalo sp? in NE kind of proves it - having a starting caliber backup is such an embarassment of riches that it's incredibly hard not to trade them away. GB learned their lesson with Favre/Rogers sure, but how does anyone know if Love is a better NFL QB than Mannion? After tearing things up, why did NO get rid of Teddy and now have to rely on Swiss Army knife? It's just not really feasible to have a known, "good" backup QB in today's NFL. Everybody hopes their backup can step in and be good, but there's a big difference between hoping and KNOWING that's the case.

The point isn't whether or not you know a guy is going to be a franchise QB, the point is the position is so important that you try to make sure you find that guy AND someone who can step up in the event your #1 goes down. The point about NE is they had the greatest QB in the league and they still had a better contingency plan than Rick, who spent the last 10 years going through a carousel of QB's. Love may not work out but again it's the effort and identification of the importance of the position. While GB has Rodgers they're already looking ahead for his heir. It's just a prudent strategy.

Look at it this way, was it a shock that a 41-year old Favre was near the end of his career here? He openly talked about retirement and it took players flying to his home and begging him to play another year for him to come back. What did Rick do in that draft? Nothing. No plan for replacing a 41-year old with a broken body. Favre, to no one's surprise, retires and it's panic-mode, which leads to drafting Ponder. Ponder plays here for 3 years, clearly isn't the answer, and who does Rick draft in those years? No one. Grabs guys like McNabb and Freeman off the street. Then we're on to Teddy. So now he's had two starting QB's not work out for one reason or another, does he draft a contingency for Teddy? Nope. Teddy injures his leg and it's panic time all over again. So he trades a bunch of picks for Bradford. Bradford is known around the league as being injury prone. It's literally the one major knock on the guy. Not to mention he's seen what happened with Favre, and Ponder, and now Teddy. Does he draft a contingency now? Nope! It's Shaun Hill and Keenum. That brings us to today with Cousins. So now Rick has seen what happened with Favre, Ponder, Teddy, and Bradford. He's literally had FOUR starting QB's come and go, so what does he do on his fifth? He drafts no one in year 1 and Nate Stanley in the 7th.

The writing has been on the wall for so long it's pretty ridiculous that despite getting snake bit over and over Rick absolutely refuses to draft a contingency for the most important position on the field. He'll trade down 45 times for more picks but heaven forbid he uses any of them on a QB. I can't see this strategy as anything but incompetence. So far he's gotten lucky that Cousins has stayed healthy (especially behind our OL, which is another huge issue with Spielman). But luck isn't a strategy.

[J. Kapp 11]

I don't know how ESPN does their rankings and I'm honestly not a huge fan but I think it's tough to rank a QB by the numbers. I think if Cousins played every game like he played against Carolina, then sure the numbers make sense. But even if you go back to Dallas, I mean he's throwing 2-yard screens and Cook is taking it 50-yards to the house. I think over a 4-game span Cook had something like 750+ all purpose yards, which is pretty crazy.

So maybe guys like Brees are ranked too high and a lot of that may be reputational but my gut feeling is that ranking for Cousins isn't that far off. I think he should be pushed up a bit but I don't think he's in the top 10.

Well, I'm just gonna flat-out disagree with you here. Nothing personal.

The screen was against Green Bay, on a day with 35-mph winds. Yes, Dalvin won us that game. But isn't it interesting ... ESPN's No. 2 ranked QB, the great Aaron Rodgers, lost the game to the 1-5 Vikings while everybody gave him an excuse because of the wind. When he stunk it up against Tampa Bay, nobody downgraded him. When he should have lost to Jacksonville, the Puker lovers at ESPN swooned that they "found a way to win" against the 1-7 Jaguars. Never mind that that "way" was the referees calling back not one, but two Jaguar touchdowns because of phantom holding calls.

As for Dallas, Cousins was flat-out great against the Cowgirls. At one point, he was 21-for-24 for more than 300 yards and 3 TDs. You don't get much better than that in the NFL. Last drive, I'll agree, he wasn't great. But he did have a critical drop by Justin Jefferson that would have netted a first down.

Against Carolina, his longest pass play was 25 yards, yet he converted 5 of 8 third-down opportunities of 6 yards or more and led the Vikings to 18 fourth-quarter points.

Again, the first 6 games for Cousins undoubtedly knock him down the rankings. I have no problem with that. But 17th? Not close IMO. Over the past five weeks, he's been top-5 in the NFL, and it's nearly inarguable. He's avoiding turnovers, he's escaping pressure better than he ever has, he's completing passes under pressure, and he's even running for first downs. His traditional passer rating over these past 5 games is off the charts at 124.3. Project his stats for the past five games over 16, and we're talking 4,200 yards, 38 TDs and 3 picks. Those are MVP-caliber numbers. Not only that, the Vikings are 4-1 in those games. It's the best any of us has ever seen him play.

But forget the emotion of a Vikings fan. Let's look at this logically. ESPN puts Dak Prescott in the top 5 based on four weeks of play with a few snaps in a fifth. His traditional passer rating is significantly lower than Cousins', even with Kirk's 11 picks. They rank Ryan Tannehill in the top 5 in spite of the fact that Tennessee doesn't rely on him to do much more than hand off to Derrick Henry. And they put Ryan Fitzpatrick — who had a 3-3 record, lost his starting job to a rookie, and trails Cousins in virtually every rate-based stat including interception percentage — in the top 10.

So if they'll give all that grace to those other guys, why aren't they giving a little weight to Cousins' excellent play in November? I think it's because they simply don't like him. They aren't about to give him the time of day. Nobody understands ESPN's subjective rating system, so they can rank whomever they want wherever they want, and nobody questions them because they're ESPN. They're freaking Disney. Cousins could have a perfect passer rating for the season, and they'd rank him in the middle of the pack.

[Maelstrom88]

Was finally able to watch the game and wow what a game! Great job by Kirk, Beebe, and Bisi . Kirk was great on that last drive and maneuvered really well in the pocket all day. Bisi and Beebe filled in the production for Thielen. Really proud of the team on that win. JJ was also good but we're getting spoiled by him and just expect it. I don't know if they'll make the playoffs but they're fighting hard which bodes well for Zimmer.

[S197]

ESPN could be weighting QBR pretty heavily where Cousins’ ranking in both lists is 17th.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ssing::qbr

[CharVike]

contingency at QB -- Lets see. the best GM in football history based on Super Bowls is Bill B. That Pats had the best QB ever based on winning the ultimate goal but he was getting old by football standards. Certainly Bill had a contingency. He looked in the hole and it was empty. How could he allow that?

Bill B actually proves my point quite well. The Patriots had Tom Brady, the GOAT, and they drafted Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett who both went on to start for other teams. So it's ridiculous to compare the Patriots and Vikings in terms of contingency planning. Ultimately they didn't need either of them but that's the point of a contingency plan, they're there in case things go south. Luckily for them Brady stayed healthy and they weren't needed but they were there in the event something happened (and they recouped picks by trading them away). Who do we have? Mannion? The 7th rounder from Iowa? It's not even comparable. The Patriots are struggling this year but we've had a decade of QB's walking in and out the door. You would think a GM who sees this, and especially since two of them were due to injury, would take the QB position a little more seriously. Even if you think Cousins is amazing, injuries are a part of football.

The Packers are also trying to repeat what they did with Favre/Rodgers with Love. So it's possible in the modern NFL, two of the more successful franchises have shown that to be true.

Lets see.... Rick never thinks about the backup. 2017 we lose our starter after week one myself and everyone else felt the season was over. Ricks backup Case steps in and marches us one step away from the Super Bowl. That's a good recovery and excellent contingency plan by any stretch. So when needed Rick did the job IMO. Where as BB feel asleep at the wheel and that's also been proven right now. I would like to see Rodgers go down. And if you think that rookie Love is going to lead that scrub team with no defense anywhere your nuts. That's a horrible contingency plan. Love should be number 3 at this point. He's never taken a snap.

[S197]

Bill B actually proves my point quite well. The Patriots had Tom Brady, the GOAT, and they drafted Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett who both went on to start for other teams. So it's ridiculous to compare the Patriots and Vikings in terms of contingency planning. Ultimately they didn't need either of them but that's the point of a contingency plan, they're there in case things go south. Luckily for them Brady stayed healthy and they weren't needed but they were there in the event something happened (and they recouped picks by trading them away). Who do we have? Mannion? The 7th rounder from Iowa? It's not even comparable. The Patriots are struggling this year but we've had a decade of QB's walking in and out the door. You would think a GM who sees this, and especially since two of them were due to injury, would take the QB position a little more seriously. Even if you think Cousins is amazing, injuries are a part of football.

The Packers are also trying to repeat what they did with Favre/Rodgers with Love. So it's possible in the modern NFL, two of the more successful franchises have shown that to be true.

Lets see.... Rick never thinks about the backup. 2017 we lose our starter after week one myself and everyone else felt the season was over. Ricks backup Case steps in and marches us one step away from the Super Bowl. That's a good recovery and excellent contingency plan by any stretch. So when needed Rick did the job IMO. Where as BB feel asleep at the wheel and that's also been proven right now. I would like to see Rodgers go down. And if you think that rookie Love is going to lead that scrub team with no defense anywhere your nuts. That's a horrible contingency plan. Love should be number 3 at this point. He's never taken a snap.

So you're saying Mannion and Stanley is a better contingency plan than Love?

Love may not work out but if he does I suspect fans like yourself will say the Packers lucked out again. There's a famous quote, "Luck Is What Happens When Preparation Meets Opportunity." The Packers are preparing for Rodgers departure. It's smart planning that every GM should do. Ours doesn't and surprisingly is "unlucky" with QBs. What a coincidence.

[CharVike]

Lets see.... Rick never thinks about the backup. 2017 we lose our starter after week one myself and everyone else felt the season was over. Ricks backup Case steps in and marches us one step away from the Super Bowl. That's a good recovery and excellent contingency plan by any stretch. So when needed Rick did the job IMO. Where as BB feel asleep at the wheel and that's also been proven right now. I would like to see Rodgers go down. And if you think that rookie Love is going to lead that scrub team with no defense anywhere your nuts. That's a horrible contingency plan. Love should be number 3 at this point. He's never taken a snap.

So you're saying Mannion and Stanley is a better contingency plan than Love?

Love may not work out but if he does I suspect fans like yourself will say the Packers lucked out again. There's a famous quote, "Luck Is What Happens When Preparation Meets Opportunity." The Packers are preparing for Rodgers departure. It's smart planning that every GM should do. Ours doesn't and surprisingly is "unlucky" with QBs. What a coincidence.

Did you ever hear win now. Probably not but the Packers are in a win now situation. IMO their QB position has a solid performer and I think he's the best in the NFC right now. If I'm the GM I would try and fill in the roster gaps the currently exist so that we can get back to the show now. And right now their D needs help. The WR group is weak and the draft was stacked with WRs. I'm sure there are more holes. But maybe they hit on a HOF QB again number 3 in a row. For the younger fans it was a great move. For the older fans I'm sure they wanted a player that could help now. Not next year or whatever years from now. And right now QB wasn't their biggest need. But as you posted they are set for the future now.

[J. Kapp 11]

Lets see.... Rick never thinks about the backup. 2017 we lose our starter after week one myself and everyone else felt the season was over. Ricks backup Case steps in and marches us one step away from the Super Bowl. That's a good recovery and excellent contingency plan by any stretch. So when needed Rick did the job IMO. Where as BB feel asleep at the wheel and that's also been proven right now. I would like to see Rodgers go down. And if you think that rookie Love is going to lead that scrub team with no defense anywhere your nuts. That's a horrible contingency plan. Love should be number 3 at this point. He's never taken a snap.

So you're saying Mannion and Stanley is a better contingency plan than Love?

Love may not work out but if he does I suspect fans like yourself will say the Packers lucked out again. There's a famous quote, "Luck Is What Happens When Preparation Meets Opportunity." The Packers are preparing for Rodgers departure. It's smart planning that every GM should do. Ours doesn't and surprisingly is "unlucky" with QBs. What a coincidence.

Rodgers is 37. Cousins is 32.

Who did the Packers have as Rodgers’ backup 5 years ago? I’ll tell you who. Matt Flynn.

Here’s the truth. The Packers have had absolutely nobody of quality as Rodgers’ backup. Ever. That’s why they lose virtually every game he misses with injury. They are not smart. They are not cutting edge. They are just like everyone else except that they have a first-ballot HOFer as their starter.

The only thing drafting Jordan Love did was piss Rodgers off and perhaps push him to use spite as motivation. You can’t even say it was a great move by the Packers because Love hasn’t played a down. Nobody knows if he’s better than Matt Flynn or even Sean Mannion. There wasn’t even a preseason. He might be hot garbage. You don’t know.

I’ll say it again. No GM with an established quarterback and half a brain is going to use high-round draft capital on a backup at ANY position. When you use a first-round pick on a player, you expect him to play. You only spend high-round capital on a QB if you intend on replacing the starter. Why do you think every draft analyst and NFL executive wondered what the hell Green Bay was doing when they drafted Love?

Despite the abject hatred of Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

[RandyMoss84]

So you're saying Mannion and Stanley is a better contingency plan than Love?

Love may not work out but if he does I suspect fans like yourself will say the Packers lucked out again. There's a famous quote, "Luck Is What Happens When Preparation Meets Opportunity." The Packers are preparing for Rodgers departure. It's smart planning that every GM should do. Ours doesn't and surprisingly is "unlucky" with QBs. What a coincidence.

Rodgers is 37. Cousins is 32.

Who did the Packers have as Rodgers’ backup 5 years ago? I’ll tell you who. Matt Flynn.

Here’s the truth. The Packers have had absolutely nobody of quality as Rodgers’ backup. Ever. That’s why they lose virtually every game he misses with injury. They are not smart. They are not cutting edge. They are just like everyone else except that they have a first-ballot HOFer as their starter.

The only thing drafting Jordan Love did was piss Rodgers off and perhaps push him to use spite as motivation. You can’t even say it was a great move by the Packers because Love hasn’t played a down. Nobody knows if he’s better than Matt Flynn or even Sean Mannion. There wasn’t even a preseason. He might be hot garbage. You don’t know.

I’ll say it again. No GM with an established quarterback and half a brain is going to use high-round draft capital on a backup at ANY position. When you use a first-round pick on a player, you expect him to play. You only spend high-round capital on a QB if you intend on replacing the starter. Why do you think every draft analyst and NFL executive wondered what the hell Green Bay was doing when they drafted Love?

Despite the abject hatred of Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

Vikings fans would not be happy with anything, Vikings could have Brady and they still would not be happy

[S197]

Rodgers is 37. Cousins is 32.

Who did the Packers have as Rodgers’ backup 5 years ago? I’ll tell you who. Matt Flynn.

Ok. Brett Favre is our QB at 41-years old. Who was the backup? What was Rick's plan?

In 3-years Rodgers will be 40. Guess who sat behind Favre for 3-years before starting. Aaron Rodgers. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Packers are trying to find an heir now.

Here’s the truth. The Packers have had absolutely nobody of quality as Rodgers’ backup. Ever. That’s why they lose virtually every game he misses with injury. They are not smart. They are not cutting edge. They are just like everyone else except that they have a first-ballot HOFer as their starter.

Now your abject hatred is getting in the way of your objectivity. They have a first-ballot HOFer and they drafted a guy in the 1st round. Why on Earth would you do that other than to try and emulate what you did with Favre/Rodgers? It's a game plan that worked to perfection the first time so why not try it again? Of course it's smart. What's dumb about it? They're an 8-win team standing atop the division, they're hardly hurting for making that pick.

The only thing drafting Jordan Love did was piss Rodgers off and perhaps push him to use spite as motivation. You can’t even say it was a great move by the Packers because Love hasn’t played a down. Nobody knows if he’s better than Matt Flynn or even Sean Mannion. There wasn’t even a preseason. He might be hot garbage. You don’t know.

You could have said the same thing about Rodgers. No one knew until we knew. The point is you need to try because the QB position is just that important. Love may or may not be the answer, the point is the Packers are attempting to find their next franchise starter. When has Rick EVER done that? You miss 100% of the shots you never take. So it's no surprise that Rick has missed over and over.

I’ll say it again. No GM with an established quarterback and half a brain is going to use high-round draft capital on a backup at ANY position. When you use a first-round pick on a player, you expect him to play. You only spend high-round capital on a QB if you intend on replacing the starter. Why do you think every draft analyst and NFL executive wondered what the hell Green Bay was doing when they drafted Love?

I don't really care what the talking heads have to say and the instant grades they give immediately after the draft. You can revisit those grades and see how many panned out.

And if you don't like the Packers, I can give you another example of a team with a HOF that has used high-round capital on a QB. The New England Patriots.

Or the undefeated Pittsburgh Steelers who despite having Big Ben drafted Rudolph in the 3rd round. Or how about a team that had their starter and used mid-round capital on a backup. The Redskins. On Kirk Cousins. Forget high round, when has Rick used a mid-round pick on a QB? John David Booty in 2008?

Despite the abject hatred of Tarvaris Jackson Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

Despite the abject hatred of Brett Favre Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

Despite the abject hatred of Christian Ponder Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

Despite the abject hatred of Teddy Bridgewater Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

Despite the abject hatred of Sam Bradford Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

Despite the abject hatred of Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

Those who fail to learn from history, well, I think we all know the rest.

[J. Kapp 11]

Rodgers is 37. Cousins is 32.

Who did the Packers have as Rodgers’ backup 5 years ago? I’ll tell you who. Matt Flynn.

Ok. Brett Favre is our QB at 41-years old. Who was the backup? What was Rick's plan?

In 3-years Rodgers will be 40. Guess who sat behind Favre for 3-years before starting. Aaron Rodgers. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Packers are trying to find an heir now.

Here’s the truth. The Packers have had absolutely nobody of quality as Rodgers’ backup. Ever. That’s why they lose virtually every game he misses with injury. They are not smart. They are not cutting edge. They are just like everyone else except that they have a first-ballot HOFer as their starter.

Now your abject hatred is getting in the way of your objectivity. They have a first-ballot HOFer and they drafted a guy in the 1st round. Why on Earth would you do that other than to try and emulate what you did with Favre/Rodgers? It's a game plan that worked to perfection the first time so why not try it again? Of course it's smart. What's dumb about it? They're an 8-win team standing atop the division, they're hardly hurting for making that pick.

The only thing drafting Jordan Love did was piss Rodgers off and perhaps push him to use spite as motivation. You can’t even say it was a great move by the Packers because Love hasn’t played a down. Nobody knows if he’s better than Matt Flynn or even Sean Mannion. There wasn’t even a preseason. He might be hot garbage. You don’t know.

You could have said the same thing about Rodgers. No one knew until we knew. The point is you need to try because the QB position is just that important. Love may or may not be the answer, the point is the Packers are attempting to find their next franchise starter. When has Rick EVER done that? You miss 100% of the shots you never take. So it's no surprise that Rick has missed over and over.

I’ll say it again. No GM with an established quarterback and half a brain is going to use high-round draft capital on a backup at ANY position. When you use a first-round pick on a player, you expect him to play. You only spend high-round capital on a QB if you intend on replacing the starter. Why do you think every draft analyst and NFL executive wondered what the hell Green Bay was doing when they drafted Love?

I don't really care what the talking heads have to say and the instant grades they give immediately after the draft. You can revisit those grades and see how many panned out.

And if you don't like the Packers, I can give you another example of a team with a HOF that has used high-round capital on a QB. The New England Patriots.

Or the undefeated Pittsburgh Steelers who despite having Big Ben drafted Rudolph in the 3rd round. Or how about a team that had their starter and used mid-round capital on a backup. The Redskins. On Kirk Cousins. Forget high round, when has Rick used a mid-round pick on a QB? John David Booty in 2008?

Despite the abject hatred of Kirk Cousins by so many Vikings fans, the team has no plans to replace him. Therefore it makes zero sense to waste draft capital on somebody who has little to no chance of ever doing anything but holding a clipboard.

This has nothing to do with hatred, it has everything to do with planning and strategy. You're right, the team has no plans on replacing him and that's really the problem and it has been for the better part of the decade. Smart teams look beyond their nose. Teams like the Packers, the Patriots, and the Steelers.

Sorry, man, but you and I are never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

Yes, I hate the Packers. So what? I’m stating facts here. They got lucky with Brett Favre, period. Ron Wolf traded a first-round pick to Atlanta for a second-round QB who threw a grand total of four passes in Atlanta, completing zero, with two interceptions, one a pick-six. Are you honestly going to tell me that Wolf was some kind of genius who had it all planned out? He got lucky! Then they drafted Rodgers ONLY when it was obvious that Favre was on the decline. Favre threw 21, 17 and 29 interceptions in the years leading up to Rodgers. THAT is why they drafted him. Not some great master plan. And they got incredibly, impossibly lucky when Rodgers fell all the way to them at 24. There is no way the Packers planned for that.

New England did such a great job of handling the QB situation that they what? Drafted Jacoby Brissett? He’s sitting behind 72-year-old Philip Rivers in Indy. Jimmy Garoppolo? The guy likely to be cut next year in SF? And when Brady left, what did they have? Jarrett Stidham. Which forced them to sign Cam Newton ... he of the 4 TDs and 9 INTs. Brilliant!

And I can’t believe you’d even bring up Mason Rudolph. Do you honestly think they’re grooming him for Big Ben’s job? He’s awful!

Look, as to whether Kirk Cousins is the guy the Vikings should be hanging their hopes on ... that’s a completely different conversation. You’ve made your position on Cousins very clear. But it’s also moot. The Vikings consider Cousins their franchise guy, so there is no way they’re going to use anything in the first three rounds on a quarterback, nor should they.

Here’s what’s happening in this conversation. You’re telling me what you think the Vikings SHOULD do. But I’m talking about what they WILL do, and I’ve given you solid reasons why it’s the right thing to do IF they’re going to run with Cousins as the franchise guy.

[S197]

Ok. Brett Favre is our QB at 41-years old. Who was the backup? What was Rick's plan?

In 3-years Rodgers will be 40. Guess who sat behind Favre for 3-years before starting. Aaron Rodgers. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Packers are trying to find an heir now.



Now your abject hatred is getting in the way of your objectivity. They have a first-ballot HOFer and they drafted a guy in the 1st round. Why on Earth would you do that other than to try and emulate what you did with Favre/Rodgers? It's a game plan that worked to perfection the first time so why not try it again? Of course it's smart. What's dumb about it? They're an 8-win team standing atop the division, they're hardly hurting for making that pick.



You could have said the same thing about Rodgers. No one knew until we knew. The point is you need to try because the QB position is just that important. Love may or may not be the answer, the point is the Packers are attempting to find their next franchise starter. When has Rick EVER done that? You miss 100% of the shots you never take. So it's no surprise that Rick has missed over and over.



I don't really care what the talking heads have to say and the instant grades they give immediately after the draft. You can revisit those grades and see how many panned out.

And if you don't like the Packers, I can give you another example of a team with a HOF that has used high-round capital on a QB. The New England Patriots.

Or the undefeated Pittsburgh Steelers who despite having Big Ben drafted Rudolph in the 3rd round. Or how about a team that had their starter and used mid-round capital on a backup. The Redskins. On Kirk Cousins. Forget high round, when has Rick used a mid-round pick on a QB? John David Booty in 2008?



This has nothing to do with hatred, it has everything to do with planning and strategy. You're right, the team has no plans on replacing him and that's really the problem and it has been for the better part of the decade. Smart teams look beyond their nose. Teams like the Packers, the Patriots, and the Steelers.

Sorry, man, but you and I are never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

Yes, I hate the Packers. So what? I’m stating facts here. They got lucky with Brett Favre, period. Ron Wolf traded a first-round pick to Atlanta for a second-round QB who threw a grand total of four passes in Atlanta, completing zero, with two interceptions, one a pick-six. Are you honestly going to tell me that Wolf was some kind of genius who had it all planned out? He got lucky! Then they drafted Rodgers ONLY when it was obvious that Favre was on the decline. Favre threw 21, 17 and 29 interceptions in the years leading up to Rodgers. THAT is why they drafted him. Not some great master plan. And they got incredibly, impossibly lucky when Rodgers fell all the way to them at 24. There is no way the Packers planned for that.

New England did such a great job of handling the QB situation that they what? Drafted Jacoby Brissett? He’s sitting behind 72-year-old Philip Rivers in Indy. Jimmy Garoppolo? The guy likely to be cut next year in SF? And when Brady left, what did they have? Jarrett Stidham. Which forced them to sign Cam Newton ... he of the 4 TDs and 9 INTs. Brilliant!

And I can’t believe you’d even bring up Mason Rudolph. Do you honestly think they’re grooming him for Big Ben’s job? He’s awful!

Look, as to whether Kirk Cousins is the guy the Vikings should be hanging their hopes on ... that’s a completely different conversation. You’ve made your position on Cousins very clear. But it’s also moot. The Vikings consider Cousins their franchise guy, so there is no way they’re going to use anything in the first three rounds on a quarterback, nor should they.

Here’s what’s happening in this conversation. You’re telling me what you think the Vikings SHOULD do. But I’m talking about what they WILL do, and I’ve given you solid reasons why it’s the right thing to do IF they’re going to run with Cousins as the franchise guy.

It's fine to hate the Packers. I hate the Packers. I also want to move on from Rick. I think Cousins is an average QB. It's all transparent and I even qualified my initial statement with all of that. They're not mutually exclusive. I also pointed out that someone was going to mention "luck." And what is luck? It's when preparation meets opportunity. 20+ other teams passed on Rodgers, the Packers saw opportunity cost in taking him towards the end of the first round. Why shouldn't they get credit for that? By that logic, can we take away credit from Rick for drafting Cook? Because he fell all the way to the 2nd, surely they didn't expect that. Or how about Jefferson? Lucky the Eagles didn't draft him. Remember, he tried to trade up so clearly he thought he wasn't making it to 22.

But we don't do that. Those were great picks and no one argues it, not even the guy who wants Rick gone. And we don't do it because while there is some amount of luck involved you still need to identify the opportunity. That identification is key and one that many teams missed with Rodgers and Cook.

But for the sake of argument, lets say the Packers didn't believe in Rodgers and that they inexplicably spent a 1st round pick on a guy they didn't believe in. They blindly fell from HOF QB to HOF QB. That still wouldn't take away from what they're doing now. Again, they're trying to emulate what they did with the Favre/Rodgers handoff. No one can say they will be successful but they're making an effort.

As for my examples, lets keep in context what I was replying to, you said:

No GM with an established quarterback and half a brain is going to use high-round draft capital on a backup at ANY position.

In response, I named three of the most successful franchises in the NFL that did it. The degree of success they had varies but that wasn't the statement, the statement was no one with half a brain would do it. But the Patriots, Packers, and Steelers all did it. The Patriots actually did it twice. Hitting on a franchise QB is tough. Really tough. That's why you need to keep taking swings. Teams with HOF QB's and Super Bowl rings are taking swings. Why aren't we?

That's really the only point I'm making. The Vikings aren't unlucky or cursed, the reason we don't have a ring is due to complacency and the inability for management to learn from their mistakes. I'm a big proponent that you make your own luck. Rick isn't unlucky, he's a GM who has failed for over a decade at the most important position on the field. I know Cousins is staying, I've said as much in other threads and I've broken down his contract more times than I can count. Ultimately my opinion doesn't matter and the Vikings are going to do what the Vikings want to do, but what's the point of a discussion forum if that's going to always be the ultimate catch-all?

And the irony of all this is that I was one of the biggest Spielman supporters here. Ask Jim, we had many long debates about him and I was the one defending him. I kept giving him another chance, another year. But at a certain point the evidence piles so high it's really hard to ignore. He's out of chances with me but it's certainly not because I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. I understand you're still on board, and that's fine, I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind all I'm trying to do is tell it the way I see it.

[J. Kapp 11]

Sorry, man, but you and I are never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

Yes, I hate the Packers. So what? I’m stating facts here. They got lucky with Brett Favre, period. Ron Wolf traded a first-round pick to Atlanta for a second-round QB who threw a grand total of four passes in Atlanta, completing zero, with two interceptions, one a pick-six. Are you honestly going to tell me that Wolf was some kind of genius who had it all planned out? He got lucky! Then they drafted Rodgers ONLY when it was obvious that Favre was on the decline. Favre threw 21, 17 and 29 interceptions in the years leading up to Rodgers. THAT is why they drafted him. Not some great master plan. And they got incredibly, impossibly lucky when Rodgers fell all the way to them at 24. There is no way the Packers planned for that.

New England did such a great job of handling the QB situation that they what? Drafted Jacoby Brissett? He’s sitting behind 72-year-old Philip Rivers in Indy. Jimmy Garoppolo? The guy likely to be cut next year in SF? And when Brady left, what did they have? Jarrett Stidham. Which forced them to sign Cam Newton ... he of the 4 TDs and 9 INTs. Brilliant!

And I can’t believe you’d even bring up Mason Rudolph. Do you honestly think they’re grooming him for Big Ben’s job? He’s awful!

Look, as to whether Kirk Cousins is the guy the Vikings should be hanging their hopes on ... that’s a completely different conversation. You’ve made your position on Cousins very clear. But it’s also moot. The Vikings consider Cousins their franchise guy, so there is no way they’re going to use anything in the first three rounds on a quarterback, nor should they.

Here’s what’s happening in this conversation. You’re telling me what you think the Vikings SHOULD do. But I’m talking about what they WILL do, and I’ve given you solid reasons why it’s the right thing to do IF they’re going to run with Cousins as the franchise guy.

It's fine to hate the Packers. I hate the Packers. I also want to move on from Rick. I think Cousins is an average QB. It's all transparent and I even qualified my initial statement with all of that. They're not mutually exclusive. I also pointed out that someone was going to mention "luck." And what is luck? It's when preparation meets opportunity. 20+ other teams passed on Rodgers, the Packers saw opportunity cost in taking him towards the end of the first round. Why shouldn't they get credit for that? By that logic, can we take away credit from Rick for drafting Cook? Because he fell all the way to the 2nd, surely they didn't expect that. Or how about Jefferson? Lucky the Eagles didn't draft him. Remember, he tried to trade up so clearly he thought he wasn't making it to 22.

But we don't do that. Those were great picks and no one argues it, not even the guy who wants Rick gone. And we don't do it because while there is some amount of luck involved you still need to identify the opportunity. That identification is key and one that many teams missed with Rodgers and Cook.

But for the sake of argument, lets say the Packers didn't believe in Rodgers and that they inexplicably spent a 1st round pick on a guy they didn't believe in. They blindly fell from HOF QB to HOF QB. That still wouldn't take away from what they're doing now. Again, they're trying to emulate what they did with the Favre/Rodgers handoff. No one can say they will be successful but they're making an effort.

As for my examples, lets keep in context what I was replying to, you said:

No GM with an established quarterback and half a brain is going to use high-round draft capital on a backup at ANY position.

In response, I named three of the most successful franchises in the NFL that did it. The degree of success they had varies but that wasn't the statement, the statement was no one with half a brain would do it. But the Patriots, Packers, and Steelers all did it. The Patriots actually did it twice. Hitting on a franchise QB is tough. Really tough. That's why you need to keep taking swings. Teams with HOF QB's and Super Bowl rings are taking swings. Why aren't we?

That's really the only point I'm making. The Vikings aren't unlucky or cursed, the reason we don't have a ring is due to complacency and the inability for management to learn from their mistakes. I'm a big proponent that you make your own luck. Rick isn't unlucky, he's a GM who has failed for over a decade at the most important position on the field. I know Cousins is staying, I've said as much in other threads and I've broken down his contract more times than I can count. Ultimately my opinion doesn't matter and the Vikings are going to do what the Vikings want to do, but what's the point of a discussion forum if that's going to always be the ultimate catch-all?

And the irony of all this is that I was one of the biggest Spielman supporters here. Ask Jim, we had many long debates about him and I was the one defending him. I kept giving him another chance, another year. But at a certain point the evidence piles so high it's really hard to ignore. He's out of chances with me but it's certainly not because I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. I understand you're still on board, and that's fine, I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind all I'm trying to do is tell it the way I see it.

It's all good. Another good conversation.

At this point for me, I just want to watch the Vikings play football for as long as possible. I've been a fan since 1969. I don't care about sustained success. I'm completely OK with selling the farm for one championship. One. I know you're not going on about sustained success ... I just hear a lot of that on this board, and the fact is, we're not the Patriots. The fact is, if not for Tom Brady, the Patriots aren't the Patriots. Doesn't matter who they drafted behind him ... none of them played unless he was injured or suspended. Bill Belichick is a good coach who NOW can get away with things that he couldn't get away with in Cleveland because he had no cache. Now he does, and he can be a hardass. But without Brady, I doubt he wins even one Super Bowl. Heck, even WITH Brady, they never dominated anybody in the Bowl.

Anyway, I desperately want the Vikings to win a championship, for sure. But even more than that, I just love watching Vikings football. I hate it when they lose. I want just once for them to come out and outplay their opponent from start to finish. Like the Rams game from 2017 ... one of my fondest memories in 50 years as a Vikings fan. God, that was a fun season.

I know my beliefs don't match many on this board. Even though he's going to be an all-Pro and threaten 2,000 all-purpose yards, I wouldn't have paid that kind of money to Dalvin Cook. We are beginning to see the chinks in the armor. He's worn down. We're paying him $13 million, so we're getting our pound of flesh. It's not sustainable. I mean, this is Year One. But ... he's a Viking, so I put my own feelings aside. He's my favorite running back in the NFL. I hope he breaks it to the house every time he touches it. I'm behind him 100%. Kirk Cousins can be frustrating at times, but he can also be brilliant. He's our quarterback, and I'm mostly glad for that, so I root for him. Mike Zimmer frustrates me with his ultra-conservative nature, but he also make some phenomenal in-game adjustments, and he's put together a defensive roster out of virtually nothing and made them competitive. He's our coach, so I'm behind him. Same with Spielman ... I'm behind him until he's not the GM.

And I hate the Packers. And the Bears. Especially the Bears. But the Packers too. And Rodgers and that idiotic porn stache.

[S197]

I’m with you on selling out for a championship. Someone here used to have an avatar of a T-shirt that says “just one before I die.” I’m definitely in that camp. That’s why to this day I don’t fault Rick for signing Cousins to that big contract. We came pretty close with Keenum so to me it made sense to be bold and take a chance. It didn’t work, but I understand taking a chance. My gripe has always been with the extension. After losing at home to the Bears (their B-squad no less) with a playoff spot on the line in year one then getting absolutely neutered by SF in year 2, I think it should have been evident Cousins wasn’t the missing piece. I know not everyone will agree with me on that but that’s when I knew we had bigger problems. At bare minimum, they should have let him play out year 3 then decide or extend based on an incentive laden contract.

To me, the well is poisoned. It’s a top down problem. The Wilfs are too complacent, Rick doesn’t learn him his mistakes, Zimmer is too conservative, and Cousins isn’t in a tier that deserves $35-$45M. We’ve definitely had worse at each level, I just believe very strongly that these guys aren’t getting us to the promise land.

I’m glad you’re still enjoying the season, it’s the way it should be. But for me, I’ve seen enough 8 and 9 win seasons to hold me over for a lifetime. I’d rather risk blowing it up for a championship knowing it could mean some really ugly seasons than being a proverbial wildcard team.