Why did Kirk Cousins not play like Tom Brady?

[Fat Stupid Loser]

No, because again you are including botched snaps in those fumble numbers, while the discussion is specifically about at strip sacks.

Since even a casual football fan knows that most botched snaps and hand offs are recovered by the offense, the stats you just provided provide no real value.

I can say that 5 of Cousins lost fumbles were strip sacks, with 2 more being QB rushes. Fumbles lost per sack he was 4th, but that isn't really what you are looking for. What you want is strip sacks per sack, and I have no idea how to get that number.

Fortunately, we don't really need that number because we know, for a fact, that luck is just an excuse and the reality is Cousins was terrible at protecting the football based on the large number of turnovers he committed.

Dude what is with you and botched snaps? How often are botched snaps and handoffs happening in the nfl. Hardly ever anymore but you just use it as an excuse to say that’s why other QBs fumble numbers are inflated. And that’s completely false. I can guarantee it. I’ve already addressed this but you continue to bring it up because it’s the tiny little thread that you’re hanging your argument on when you put Cousins fumble numbers next to everyone elses. It’s like you think Cousins only loses fumbles by getting sacked or running but that doesn’t happen nearly as often to others QBs. It’s because they’re “botching snaps and handoffs”. IF anything, a few QBs out there might, yes might have like one more fumble than Cousins does due to a botched snap. It’s not even worthy of mentioning because it’s a minimal effect on 99%of QBs fumble numbers. This isn’t high school where’s snaps are botched 3 times a game. You’re trying to pull everything you can out of the clouds to somehow show that those fumble numbers I posted are false. And they just aren’t. He fell in the slightly above average range across the league. Period. Argument over

I like this thread, its fun. I would argue that botched snap fumbles are far worse than fumbling when sacked or strip sacked from behind. He is using botched snaps to lessen the other QBs fumble problems because he thinks you have a better chance of recovering them yourself? Ummmmm.......nope. Fumbles are fumbles and botched snaps are unforced.

[StumpHunter]

Pretty sure "bad luck" is the absolute worst excuse I have ever read.

And I quote.....

it's not just based on bad luck. The guy lost 6 fumbles in two years (2015 and 2016). Then fumbled quite a bit in 2017 only to lose 5. And then brought it back down again with 9 in 2018 but happened to lose 7 this year. How, in two years, does he only lose 6 fumbles, only loses 5 when he fumbled 13 times in 2017 but then loses 7 out of 9 in 2018? In THREE years he lost 11 fumbles but this year he lost 7. The numbers dont add up. I told you before, if he was losing 7+ fumbles year after year, then yeah, he isnt good at protecting the football. But that didnt happen. Not even close. I'm basing my argument off of the numbers I posted which is that he is league average when it comes to fumble rate per passing attempt.

14.) Kirk Cousins- Fumbles every 67.3 attempts

So your argument is that a guy who has been 5th, 2nd, 3rd in previous years in total fumbles isn't horrible at protecting the football because he was 10th this year, and #1 at losing fumbles this year?

I can't believe I missed that before and understand now why you are holding onto the fumbles per pass attempt, two things that are mutually exclusive. That is like using a stat like interceptions per rushing attempt to prove a point.

I stand corrected, THAT is the worst excuse I have ever read.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I like this thread, its fun.

If you were to type the word fumble over 300 times like I have in this thread, it wouldnt be that fun

I would argue that botched snap fumbles are far worse than fumbling when sacked or strip sacked from behind.

Yes that's something that wasnt really addressed but yeah, if you're an NFL QB and are botching snaps and handoffs a few times a year, you've got some issues.

He is using botched snaps to lessen the other QBs fumble problems because he thinks you have a better chance of recovering them yourself? Ummmmm.......nope. Fumbles are fumbles and botched snaps are unforced.

Exactly he's using botched snaps to "lessen the other QBs fumble numbers" AND the funny thing is, there isnt even a stat out there for botched snaps. So he's using it as an excuse when he cant even find a statistic on it. And I can GUARANTEE there isnt a fan on here that knows AND has witnessed the 9 other QBs with more fumbles than Cousins botching snaps right and left this past year. It's because it didnt happen. Not tooting my own horn by any means but in all honesty, I follow the NFL just as much or more than most guys on here. I cant recall the last time I've seen a botched snap by a QB. I remember when Nick Easton snapped to Bradford vs the Packers in 2016 and it never left the ground. Which didnt even count against Bradford. I think the last one I remember is Russell Wilson miracle botched snap vs. us in the playoffs in 2015. I think the last botched handoff I saw was within the last few years where Stafford missed a handoff to his RB vs the Vikings.

So all in all, the botched snap argument doesnt apply. It doesnt happen enough to say so. Especially when you dont even have a stat for it. Those QBs were fumbling due to strip sacks and running the football. Guess what that means? They arent protecting the football!! One video I could find was here when Russell Wilson played Chicago this year. Twice he was strip sacked and threw a pick 6. Sacked 6 times. Didnt see a botched snap in there..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tqsf9VqBFM


Here is another one..... the regular season highlights start at 5:45. Only botched snap or handoff was Watson handing off to Miller. The rest were strip sacks, and then a couple strips from a QB scrambling. But a good 90% of them were strip sacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjTVE4mBTFs

There is zero botched snap argument at all. Like you said FSL, fumbles are fumbles. Those QBs fumbled more than Cousins and 16 starting QBs had a worse fumble rate than Cousins did.

[Pondering Her Percy]

And I quote.....

So your argument is that a guy who has been 5th, 2nd, 3rd in previous years in total fumbles isn't horrible at protecting the football because he was 10th this year, and #1 at losing fumbles this year?

I can't believe I missed that before and understand now why you are holding onto the fumbles per pass attempt, two things that are mutually exclusive. That is like using a stat like interceptions per rushing attempt to prove a point.

I stand corrected, THAT is the worst excuse I have ever read.

lol ok dude, keep telling yourself that....

[StumpHunter]

I like this thread, its fun.

If you were to type the word fumble over 300 times like I have in this thread, it wouldnt be that fun

I would argue that botched snap fumbles are far worse than fumbling when sacked or strip sacked from behind.

Yes that's something that wasnt really addressed but yeah, if you're an NFL QB and are botching snaps and handoffs a few times a year, you've got some issues.

He is using botched snaps to lessen the other QBs fumble problems because he thinks you have a better chance of recovering them yourself? Ummmmm.......nope. Fumbles are fumbles and botched snaps are unforced.

Exactly he's using botched snaps to "lessen the other QBs fumble numbers" AND the funny thing is, there isnt even a stat out there for botched snaps. So he's using it as an excuse when he cant even find a statistic on it. And I can GUARANTEE there isnt a fan on here that knows AND has witnessed the 9 other QBs with more fumbles than Cousins botching snaps right and left this past year. It's because it didnt happen. Not tooting my own horn by any means but in all honesty, I follow the NFL just as much or more than most guys on here. I cant recall the last time I've seen a botched snap by a QB. I remember when Nick Easton snapped to Bradford vs the Packers in 2016 and it never left the ground. Which didnt even count against Bradford. I think the last one I remember is Russell Wilson miracle botched snap vs. us in the playoffs in 2015. I think the last botched handoff I saw was within the last few years where Stafford missed a handoff to his RB vs the Vikings.

So all in all, the botched snap argument doesnt apply. It doesnt happen enough to say so. Especially when you dont even have a stat for it. Those QBs were fumbling due to strip sacks and running the football. Guess what that means? They arent protecting the football!! One video I could find was here when Russell Wilson played Chicago this year. Twice he was strip sacked and threw a pick 6. Sacked 6 times. Didnt see a botched snap in there..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tqsf9VqBFM


Here is another one..... the regular season highlights start at 5:45. Only botched snap or handoff was Watson handing off to Miller. The rest were strip sacks, and then a couple strips from a QB scrambling. But a good 90% of them were strip sacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjTVE4mBTFs

There is zero botched snap argument at all. Like you said FSL, fumbles are fumbles. Those QBs fumbled more than Cousins and 16 starting QBs had a worse fumble rate than Cousins did.

Botched snaps happen a little more than once every 2 strip sacks. They, along with botched hand-offs, are counted against the QB regardless of whether the center or RB messed up.

Pretty basic stuff you are messing up here.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Botched snaps happen a little more than once every 2 strip sacks.

They, along with botched hand-offs, are counted against the QB regardless of whether the center or RB messed up.

Pretty basic stuff you are messing up here.

That is false. That fumble Easton screwed up did not go against Bradford. Look at the stats. Bradford had 1 fumble that game and lost it (when he was strip sacked by Matthews). The Easton fumble did not count against him. Fumbles count against the last player to possess the ball. If there's not a clean exchange, RB fumbles often revert to the QB.

But I guess I'm the one messing stuff up

[VikingsVictorious]

Botched snaps happen a little more than once every 2 strip sacks.

They, along with botched hand-offs, are counted against the QB regardless of whether the center or RB messed up.

Pretty basic stuff you are messing up here.

That is false. That fumble Easton screwed up did not go against Bradford. Look at the stats. Bradford had 1 fumble that game and lost it (when he was strip sacked by Matthews). The Easton fumble did not count against him. Fumbles count against the last player to possess the ball. If there's not a clean exchange, RB fumbles often revert to the QB.

But I guess I'm the one messing stuff up

I think it is safe to say that at this point this has been hashed over so much that nobody has anything left to say. Let's let Stump be on record that Cousins is a big time fumble loser as fumbles and fumbles lost are no the same. PHP says that Cousins fumbles no more than most QBs on a per sack basis and the amount lost was somewhat due to bad luck. At the end of the season if Cousins has average to less than average fumbles lost per sack Percy wins. If he has more Stump wins. I can confidently say that all of us hope PHP wins the debate. Right Stump?

[StumpHunter]

That is false. That fumble Easton screwed up did not go against Bradford. Look at the stats. Bradford had 1 fumble that game and lost it (when he was strip sacked by Matthews). The Easton fumble did not count against him. Fumbles count against the last player to possess the ball. If there's not a clean exchange, RB fumbles often revert to the QB.

But I guess I'm the one messing stuff up

I think it is safe to say that at this point this has been hashed over so much that nobody has anything left to say. Let's let Stump be on record that Cousins is a big time fumble loser as fumbles and fumbles lost are no the same. PHP says that Cousins fumbles no more than most QBs on a per sack basis and the amount lost was somewhat due to bad luck. At the end of the season if Cousins has average to less than average fumbles lost per sack Percy wins. If he has more Stump wins. I can confidently say that all of us hope PHP wins the debate. Right Stump?

If Cousins loses as many fumbles as this year or in 2017, I lose. I want the Vikings to win more than I want to win an argument on a message board.


I do think he will fumble less this year
because the Vikings will focus on limiting his mistakes and make him a more of an Alex Smith type QB instead of trying to make him into Big Ben.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I think it is safe to say that at this point this has been hashed over so much that nobody has anything left to say. Let's let Stump be on record that Cousins is a big time fumble loser as fumbles and fumbles lost are no the same. PHP says that Cousins fumbles no more than most QBs on a per sack basis and the amount lost was somewhat due to bad luck. At the end of the season if Cousins has average to less than average fumbles lost per sack Percy wins. If he has more Stump wins. I can confidently say that all of us hope PHP wins the debate. Right Stump?

If Cousins loses as many fumbles as this year or in 2017, I lose. I want the Vikings to win more than I want to win an argument on a message board.


I do think he will fumble less this year
because the Vikings will focus on limiting his mistakes and make him a more of an Alex Smith type QB instead of trying to make him into Big Ben.

Thanks for being the mediator VV! I don’t wanna type the “F” word again haha.

As for what stump said, I think they are simply just going to run the ball more which should result in less fumbles by cousins anyways. We didn’t run the ball last year enough to say so and Cousins was put in a lot of bad situations at times because of it. You’re right when you say they won’t try to make him into Big Ben and they shouldn’t. He doesn’t need to be for this team to win. Flip believed that and that’s ultimately why he was fired. You need balance to win in this league. You can’t be one dimensional and we were. This offense was easy to predict last year because when we got down by more than a TD we went right to passing the ball the rest of the game. Flip panicked when this team was losing. Why? Look at the defense you have. If they keep giving up points then that’s on them. But they hardly ever were outside of a game or two. Cousins should be throwing somewhere in the range of 25-35 times a game. And cook should be totaling 17+ carries a game with Mattison spelling him. That’s balance. Not throwing Cousins 40 times and running cook 9 times. Recipe for disaster. Especially with a weak OL. We should be much better there this year so hopefully we see big changes

[CharVike]

If Cousins loses as many fumbles as this year or in 2017, I lose. I want the Vikings to win more than I want to win an argument on a message board.


I do think he will fumble less this year
because the Vikings will focus on limiting his mistakes and make him a more of an Alex Smith type QB instead of trying to make him into Big Ben.

Thanks for being the mediator VV! I don’t wanna type the “F” word again haha.

As for what stump said, I think they are simply just going to run the ball more which should result in less fumbles by cousins anyways. We didn’t run the ball last year enough to say so and Cousins was put in a lot of bad situations at times because of it. You’re right when you say they won’t try to make him into Big Ben and they shouldn’t. He doesn’t need to be for this team to win. Flip believed that and that’s ultimately why he was fired. You need balance to win in this league. You can’t be one dimensional and we were. This offense was easy to predict last year because when we got down by more than a TD we went right to passing the ball the rest of the game. Flip panicked when this team was losing. Why? Look at the defense you have. If they keep giving up points then that’s on them. But they hardly ever were outside of a game or two. Cousins should be throwing somewhere in the range of 25-35 times a game. And cook should be totaling 17+ carries a game with Mattison spelling him. That’s balance. Not throwing Cousins 40 times and running cook 9 times. Recipe for disaster. Especially with a weak OL. We should be much better there this year so hopefully we see big changes

Throwing 25-35 times a game will limit his fumbles. JDF set him up for failure. He was a bad hire and didn't know what he was doing. Never wanted to run the ball and we ran it well when we did. Hopefully Kub and his sidekick stick with the ground game. My concern is for Cook and being able to take the heavy load. He better be able to or it will be trouble. It will really come down to him.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Thanks for being the mediator VV! I don’t wanna type the “F” word again haha.

As for what stump said, I think they are simply just going to run the ball more which should result in less fumbles by cousins anyways. We didn’t run the ball last year enough to say so and Cousins was put in a lot of bad situations at times because of it. You’re right when you say they won’t try to make him into Big Ben and they shouldn’t. He doesn’t need to be for this team to win. Flip believed that and that’s ultimately why he was fired. You need balance to win in this league. You can’t be one dimensional and we were. This offense was easy to predict last year because when we got down by more than a TD we went right to passing the ball the rest of the game. Flip panicked when this team was losing. Why? Look at the defense you have. If they keep giving up points then that’s on them. But they hardly ever were outside of a game or two. Cousins should be throwing somewhere in the range of 25-35 times a game. And cook should be totaling 17+ carries a game with Mattison spelling him. That’s balance. Not throwing Cousins 40 times and running cook 9 times. Recipe for disaster. Especially with a weak OL. We should be much better there this year so hopefully we see big changes

Throwing 25-35 times a game will limit his fumbles. JDF set him up for failure. He was a bad hire and didn't know what he was doing. Never wanted to run the ball and we ran it well when we did. Hopefully Kub and his sidekick stick with the ground game. My concern is for Cook and being able to take the heavy load. He better be able to or it will be trouble. It will really come down to him.

It's exactly why we drafted Mattison

[808vikingsfan]

That is false. That fumble Easton screwed up did not go against Bradford. Look at the stats. Bradford had 1 fumble that game and lost it (when he was strip sacked by Matthews). The Easton fumble did not count against him. Fumbles count against the last player to possess the ball. If there's not a clean exchange, RB fumbles often revert to the QB.

But I guess I'm the one messing stuff up

I think it is safe to say that at this point this has been hashed over so much that nobody has anything left to say. Let's let Stump be on record that Cousins is a big time fumble loser as fumbles and fumbles lost are no the same. PHP says that Cousins fumbles no more than most QBs on a per sack basis and the amount lost was somewhat due to bad luck. At the end of the season if Cousins has average to less than average fumbles lost per sack Percy wins. If he has more Stump wins. I can confidently say that all of us hope PHP wins the debate. Right Stump?

I agree. Shouldn't we be talking about camp instead?

[The negotiator]

Dude what is with you and botched snaps? How often are botched snaps and handoffs happening in the nfl. Hardly ever anymore but you just use it as an excuse to say that’s why other QBs fumble numbers are inflated. And that’s completely false. I can guarantee it. I’ve already addressed this but you continue to bring it up because it’s the tiny little thread that you’re hanging your argument on when you put Cousins fumble numbers next to everyone elses. It’s like you think Cousins only loses fumbles by getting sacked or running but that doesn’t happen nearly as often to others QBs. It’s because they’re “botching snaps and handoffs”. IF anything, a few QBs out there might, yes might have like one more fumble than Cousins does due to a botched snap. It’s not even worthy of mentioning because it’s a minimal effect on 99%of QBs fumble numbers. This isn’t high school where’s snaps are botched 3 times a game. You’re trying to pull everything you can out of the clouds to somehow show that those fumble numbers I posted are false. And they just aren’t. He fell in the slightly above average range across the league. Period. Argument over

I like this thread, its fun. I would argue that botched snap fumbles are far worse than fumbling when sacked or strip sacked from behind. He is using botched snaps to lessen the other QBs fumble problems because he thinks you have a better chance of recovering them yourself? Ummmmm.......nope. Fumbles are fumbles and botched snaps are unforced.

FSL, it’s good when you post. You were a bright spot when I used to follow you and a few others on Extreme Skins. There were a lot of raw vitriol when it came to a KC thread, a Snyder or Bruce Allen thread. Here, for the most part, are rational fans who love the Vikings, the owners, management and coaching staff and just want to win. Like you, I really enjoy reading the threads. Being from MI, I gave up on the Lions years ago and on the Redskins, where I followed Cousins. Not used to fans who have hope.

[Passepartout]

Just give him a chance. As really Kirk is not ever going to be a Tom Brady. He is his own man. Just give him more of a O.L. to protect him and a go to guy like Xavier Rhodes.

[Raptorman]

Just give him a chance. As really Kirk is not ever going to be a Tom Brady. He is his own man. Just give him more of a O.L. to protect him and a go to guy like Xavier Rhodes.

Even Tom Bradys isn't the Tom Brady everyone thinks he is. Neither is Aaron Rodgers.