2016 Vikings Free Agency Thread (News, Rumors, Transactions)

[Jordysghost]

We'll see what happens but in Fox's previous two stops, he took teams from a single digit win total to a double digit win total in his second season. I don't expect him to pull that off in Chicago but the man has had two head coaching jobs and he's led his team to the Super Bowl both times. I think he's the best coach the Bears have had since Ditka (I assume that's who you were referring to above). I expect him to have them contending for the playoffs next year. I don't know if he can accomplish it this year.

I was actually referring to Lovie, but I failed to qualify "The best Coach they had in Halas Hall' with the words "In the past 25 years" as I had meant too.

Yes, I am a big fan of John Fox and thought he was a great hire, dont get me wrong, I didn't however think Ryan Pace to be the best GM, and I just have a feeling the Bears can more then managae to to wallow in mediocrity despite Fox.

I still can't believe they havent replaced Cutler, its utter madness at this point. Im really starting to admire Cutlers ability to make people think he isnt as absolutely terrible and pathetic a starting QB as his on field production indicates.

Until they dump the crappier version of Jeff George, they can kiss the whole competing dream goodnight.

[fiestavike]

We'll see what happens but in Fox's previous two stops, he took teams from a single digit win total to a double digit win total in his second season. I don't expect him to pull that off in Chicago but the man has had two head coaching jobs and he's led his team to the Super Bowl both times. I think he's the best coach the Bears have had since Ditka (I assume that's who you were referring to above). I expect him to have them contending for the playoffs next year. I don't know if he can accomplish it this year.

Fox is a good coach. At this point I'd stack up the NFC north coaches as 1. Zimmer, 2. Fox, 3. McCarthy, and a distant 4. Caldwell.

[Jordysghost]

Fox is a good coach. At this point I'd stack up the NFC north coaches as 1. Zimmer, 2. Fox, 3. McCarthy, and a distant 4. Caldwell.

By far the most succesful, and only one with a SB as number 3? Bwaha yea, Im sure that makes sense on some planet, not this one.

[fiestavike]

By far the most succesful, and only one with a SB as number 3? Bwaha yea, Im sure that makes sense on some planet, not this one.

He's also had several years with the best QB in football and one of the best run organizations in all of sports...Frankly, he's underperformed. Jim Caldwell would probably have a Super Bowl by now with that team in the same span! But I figured it would ruffle your feathers to place Caldwell above McCarthy, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

[Jordysghost]

He's also had several years with the best QB in football and one of the best run organizations in all of sports...Frankly, he's underperformed. Jim Caldwell would probably have a Super Bowl by now with that team in the same span! But I figured it would ruffle your feathers to place Caldwell above McCarthy, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Under performed? Running the most succesful tenure in the league outside of the Pats (and the anomaly like Giants) since he took over is underperforming? Jee whiz..

Speaking of that best QB in football, McCarthy was actually HIRED on the basis of his ability with QBs, in fact he gave Rodgers a COMPLETE overhaul to his throwing motion, footwork, and mechanics, fancy that!

Look Fiesta, your opinion is all well and good, but virtually nothing statistical validates what you are saying. Since 2008 there has only been one franchise that can be considered as or more succesful then the Packers, go ahead and fact check it if you want.

[fiestavike]

Under performed? Running the most succesful tenure in the league outside of the Pats (and the anomaly like Giants) since he took over is underperforming? Jee whiz..

Speaking of that best QB in football, McCarthy was actually HIRED on the basis of his ability with QBs, in fact he gave Rodgers a COMPLETE overhaul to his throwing motion, footwork, and mechanics, fancy that!

Look Fiesta, your opinion is all well and good, but virtually nothing statistical validates what you are saying.

You can do anything you want to with stats. I'm interested in truth. Fox has a really strong track record at building tough, consistent football teams. He should probably be ranked #1, but the homer in me loves Zimmer too much to give the crown to Fox

[Jordysghost]

You can do anything you want to with stats. I'm interested in truth. Fox has a really strong track record at building tough, consistent football teams. He should probably be ranked #1, but the homer in me loves Zimmer too much to give the crown to Fox

"You can do anything you want with tangible supporting evidence validating your point as the truth, Im more interested unsubstantiated claims with nothing to support them."

Fox does have a track record of building strong consistent football teams, just not as good, consistent, or succesful as those built by McCarthy.

[Mothman]

Jordy has a point. There's only one coach out of those 4 who hasn't been the head coach of a conference champion. McCarthy has a won a Super Bowl and has been a consistent winner in Green Bay. To suggest Zimmer is the best coach in the North is a bit much at this stage of his head coaching career.

[fiestavike]

"You can do anything you want with tangible supporting evidence validating your point as the truth, Im more interested unsubstantiated claims with nothing to support them."

There's stats or evidence to support any and every position in the world on any and everything. Its how bright people disagree about everything in the world. There's no ending to that game, and frankly I've grown pretty tired of it. I'm interested in the evidence that is reflective of the truth. As such, "x coach is the only one to win a Super Bowl", isn't particularly compelling evidence that x coach is the best of a particular group. Its just one data point that most fans wildly over emphasize. (its also a bit like analyzing health via autopsy rather than X-ray) In the end most people believe what is easy to believe, or what they want to believe...its basically a matter of will masquerading as "reason" fueled by stats and evidence...which, as I explained, is why I personally put Zimmer over Fox in the rankings. He should probably be ranked #2.

[Jordysghost]

There's stats or evidence to support any and every position in the world on any and everything. Its how bright people disagree about everything in the world. There's no ending to that game, and frankly I've grown pretty tired of it. I'm interested in the evidence that is reflective of the truth. As such, "x coach is the only one to win a Super Bowl", isn't particularly compelling evidence that x coach is the best of a particular group. Its just one data point that most fans wildly over emphasize. In the end most people believe what is easy to believe, or what they want to believe...its basically a matter of will masquerading as "reason" fueled by stats and evidence...which, as I explained, is why I personally put Zimmer over Fox in the rankings. He should probably be ranked #2.

Its not about just a SB win, its about litterally everything that is used to judge a coaches performance, Wins, losses, consistancy, playoffs, team development, etc. etc. In quite literally EVERY measurable facet McCarthy is the top dog out of those listed.

The difference between our opinions, is the only thing supporting yours, is that it is your opinion, mine however, as ample factual basis behind it. I could say that "Alex Smith is the best QB in todays game." But no matter how hard I want to believe, there is simply NOTHING there to suggest it is anything more then inaccuarate, unsubstantiated wishful thinking.

At least your pretty honest that you only believe what you believe because you want to, I already knew that, but its good you are a realist.

[fiestavike]

Its not about just a SB win, its about litterally everything that is used to judge a coaches performance, Wins, losses, consistancy, playoffs, team development, etc. etc. In quite literally EVERY measurable facet McCarthy is the top dog out of those listed.

The difference between our opinions, is the only thing supporting yours, is that it is your opinion, mine however, as ample factual basis behind it. I could say that "Alex Smith is the best QB in todays game." But no matter how hard I want to believe, there is simply NOTHING there to suggest it is anything more then inaccuarate, unsubstantiated wishful thinking.

At least your pretty honest that you only believe what you believe because you want to, I already knew that, but its good you are a realist.

Not quite what I said, but fair enough...

One day you will step back and realize that its much more complex and "everything that is used to judge a coaches performance" is a bunch of pretty uninsightful sets of facts swimming in a sea of too many variables and other factors for them to be of any use as they relate to reality instead as they relate to the argument. The character, intelligence and toughness of a team is much more difficult to quantify, but much more insightful. John Fox builds teams that have those characteristics, and has done so at every stop. I hope the Bears fire him soon!

[Jordysghost]

Not quite what I said, but fair enough...

One day you will step back and realize that its much more complex and "everything that is used to judge a coaches performance" is a bunch of pretty uninsightful sets of facts swimming in a sea of too many variables and other factors for them to be of any use as they relate to reality instead as they relate to the argument. The character, intelligence and toughness of a team is much more difficult to quantify, but much more insightful. John Fox builds teams that have those characteristics, and has done so at every stop. I hope the Bears fire him soon!

I get that Fiesta, what you dont seem to get is all those more difficult to quantify traits that you speak of, is there anything to suggest that McCarthy has been lacking in those areas? No, there isnt. At all. And if you WERE to try and quantify them, the most succesful coach on the list (McCarthy) would probably come out leading in those areas as well. (By all objective measure)

I think McCarthy has built smarter, tougher, and simply more willfull teams then Fox, and while not an exact science, the on field production would indicate that is the case.

Your point comes down to the basis of Fox being more capable in less easy to quantify areas of building a team, but one could just as easily claim that McCarthy has been every bit, if not moreso, succesful in those areas. (But once again, the actual ON FIELD productiion would point to that being the truth)

[Jordysghost]

Your entire point and reasoning here, is hinging on a phantom.

YOU may seem to think that Fox has a leg up in those less then quantifiable areas, but once again.. that falls within the realm of unsubstantiated, untangible opinion.

[Mothman]

Your entire point and reasoning here, is hinging on a phantom.

... and now you're in the Twilight Zone too, Jordy. Welcome!

[fiestavike]

I get that Fiesta, what you dont seem to get is all those more difficult to quantify traits that you speak of, is there anything to suggest that McCarthy has been lacking in those areas? No, there isnt. At all. And if you WERE to try and quantify them, the most succesful coach on the list (McCarthy) would probably come out leading in those areas as well. (By all objective measure)

I think McCarthy has built smarter, tougher, and simply more willfull teams then Fox, and while not an exact science, the on field production would indicate that is the case.

Your point comes down to the basis of Fox being more capable in less easy to quantify areas of building a team, but one could just as easily claim that McCarthy has been every bit, if not moreso, succesful in those areas. (But once again, the actual ON FIELD productiion would point to that being the truth)

Obviously, McCarthy is your guy, so I don't expect you to change your view, but I don't agree that the Packers under his tenure have particularly personfied those characteristics. I think they've been extremely talented at some of the most important positions, but frankly, most seasons they've disappointed given the expectations their roster engenders.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in "winning" the argument, just communicating clearly and trying to get closer to the truth.