Zimmer: Teddy Bridgewater needs to refine mechanics

[dead_poet]

It means nothing to me, not only because of the source but because of his style of play. He throws SO many short passes that he's bound to rate well in that sort of ranking from PFF. However, my comments about his accuracy yesterday, in comparison to Culpepper's, were in relation to his whole game. Bridgewater's deep ball accuracy is lousy. His medium range accuracy is average at best. He's a cautious dink-and-dunker so he'd better be putting most of those passes on the money.

Jim...you're too easy. Thank you for not disappointing me.

[Mothman]

Jim...you're too easy. Thank you for not disappointing me.

You were obviously poking me to get a response so I responded. It's cathartic! Thanks.

[mondry]

It means nothing to me, not only because of the source but because of his style of play. He throws SO many short passes that he's bound to rate well in that sort of ranking from PFF. However, my comments about his accuracy yesterday, in comparison to Culpepper's, were in relation to his whole game. Bridgewater's deep ball accuracy is lousy. His medium range accuracy is average at best. He's a cautious dink-and-dunker so he'd better be putting most of those passes on the money.

LOL, if Teddy's a dink and dunker averaging 7.2 YPA then I wonder what you'd call Carr who's averaging 7.0 YPA with worse accuracy? Blake Bortles at 7.3 YPA so very slightly better than Teddy's but we're talking 58.6% completion rate for Bortles to Teddy's 65.3%, Carr had 61.1% to round out the comparison. I just don't get it, are you only comparing him to some of the best in the league or future hall of famers? Tom Brady 7.6 YPA 64.4% completion so I guess he has Teddy beat but again we're talking about a future hall of famer with 16 years experience and an offense literally tailor made for the guys skill set and what do you get? 0.4 YPA more and -0.9% completion rate. Don't get me wrong that 0.4 YPA is a big deal but given where these two are at in their careers I don't think it's unreasonable to feel good about Teddy's trajectory.

When comparing him to his peers from the same draft class he's either better or right in the mix in almost every way other than raw yardage and touch down statistics. When you look at their teams (bad defense, bad running games) it's not hard to understand why that would be the case. These guys are not hitting 50 yard bombs every other drive though and pretty much every NFL offense outside of ARI / PIT / CIN features a short and intermediate passing game supplemented by taking a few shots down field, just like us.

I don't mean to call you out here and I'm sure Poet "poked the beast" so to say but I can't let comments like "He throws SO many short passes that he's bound to rate well in that sort of ranking from PFF." and "He's a cautious dink-and-dunker so he'd better be putting most of those passes on the money." go when the stats show he's more accurate AND less of a "dink and dunker" than Carr while being right there with Bortles in YPA but having far superior completion %.

If we take a look at the bigger picture, Teddy ranked 14th overall in YPA out of guys that threw at least 250 passes. His 7.2 average tied with Eli / Rivers / Stafford. Aaron Rodgers the goat god of QB's had a 6.7 YPA which was "good enough" for 21st, talk about a dink and dunker! Teddy also ranked 9th in completion % with the same 250 pass minimum in place and that's even with all the throw away's that weren't removed (like in PFF's analysis, that bumps him to #1) then he's still in the top half of the league for both stats.

Jim, you're usually a pretty reasonable guy and as someone who took the "wait and see" and "give um the benefit of the doubt" mentality for Ponder it seems strange to see you so aggressively "targeting" Teddy in a negative way, even if that isn't your intent that's how you come off when Poet posts something positive about the guy and you won't even slightly acknowledge it! You also stuck in Frazier's corner and made reasonable arguments to defend him even when his team's were "struggling" but despite the good Zimmer's done so far you aren't ready to "crown him". That's fine btw, I'm just wondering why the change in your mentality when it comes to this new regime. (Teddy / Zimmer compared to Ponder / Frazier)

I get it if it's like a "fool me once shame on you" kind of thing, as George W would put it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A

[fiestavike]

LOL, if Teddy's a dink and dunker averaging 7.2 YPA then I wonder what you'd call Carr who's averaging 7.0 YPA with worse accuracy? Blake Bortles at 7.3 YPA so very slightly better than Teddy's but we're talking 58.6% completion rate for Bortles to Teddy's 65.3%, Carr had 61.1% to round out the comparison. I just don't get it, are you only comparing him to some of the best in the league or future hall of famers? Tom Brady 7.6 YPA 64.4% completion so I guess he has Teddy beat but again we're talking about a future hall of famer with 16 years experience and an offense literally tailor made for the guys skill set and what do you get? 0.4 YPA more and -0.9% completion rate. Don't get me wrong that 0.4 YPA is a big deal but given where these two are at in their careers I don't think it's unreasonable to feel good about Teddy's trajectory.

When comparing him to his peers from the same draft class he's either better or right in the mix in almost every way other than raw yardage and touch down statistics. When you look at their teams (bad defense, bad running games) it's not hard to understand why that would be the case. These guys are not hitting 50 yard bombs every other drive though and pretty much every NFL offense outside of ARI / PIT / CIN features a short and intermediate passing game supplemented by taking a few shots down field, just like us.

I don't mean to call you out here and I'm sure Poet "poked the beast" so to say but I can't let comments like "He throws SO many short passes that he's bound to rate well in that sort of ranking from PFF." and "He's a cautious dink-and-dunker so he'd better be putting most of those passes on the money." go when the stats show he's more accurate AND less of a "dink and dunker" than Carr while being right there with Bortles in YPA but having far superior completion %.

If we take a look at the bigger picture, Teddy ranked 14th overall in YPA out of guys that threw at least 250 passes. His 7.2 average tied with Eli / Rivers / Stafford. Aaron Rodgers the goat god of QB's had a 6.7 YPA which was "good enough" for 21st, talk about a dink and dunker! Teddy also ranked 9th in completion % with the same 250 pass minimum in place and that's even with all the throw away's that weren't removed (like in PFF's analysis, that bumps him to #1) then he's still in the top half of the league for both stats.

Jim, you're usually a pretty reasonable guy and as someone who took the "wait and see" and "give um the benefit of the doubt" mentality for Ponder it seems strange to see you so aggressively "targeting" Teddy in a negative way, even if that isn't your intent that's how you come off when Poet posts something positive about the guy and you won't even slightly acknowledge it! You also stuck in Frazier's corner and made reasonable arguments to defend him even when his team's were "struggling" but despite the good Zimmer's done so far you aren't ready to "crown him". That's fine btw, I'm just wondering why the change in your mentality when it comes to this new regime. (Teddy / Zimmer compared to Ponder / Frazier)

I get it if it's like a "fool me once shame on you" kind of thing, as George W would put it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A

I agree that he seems clearly the best QB in his class so far. I would love to see him with an offensive line like Oak was able to somehow get to perform the way they did under Tice. That line was formed from a bunch of rabble and rejects but played pretty darn good.

Its just another factor to consider if one insists on citing completion percentages and YPAs and blah blah blahs. All things being equal, I doubt there are 5 QBs in the league who would perform better than Teddy did last year under similar circumstances. Rodgers? Wilson? Newton? Maybe big Ben? They've got to have some real escapability of you can forget it.

[mondry]

I agree that he seems clearly the best QB in his class so far. I would love to see him with an offensive line like Oak was able to somehow get to perform the way they did under Tice. That line was formed from a bunch of rabble and rejects but played pretty darn good.

Its just another factor to consider if one insists on citing completion percentages and YPAs and blah blah blahs. All things being equal, I doubt there are 5 QBs in the league who would perform better than Teddy did last year under similar circumstances. Rodgers? Wilson? Newton? Maybe big Ben? They've got to have some real escapability of you can forget it.

Tice get's a lot of flack but the dude has legit talent when it comes to putting together solid O-lines. I would have loved to have him back in that capacity pretty much anytime in the last 5 years but I think Zigi burned that bridge with the way he was fired.

What I love about YPA is it's the one stat that can kind of be compared in an apples to apples sense. Yes O-lines and WR's and garbage time and overall philosophies matter but at the end of the day if your QB has a solid YPA it represents him doing his job within that offense. Some will argue that having AD and a solid defense benefits Teddy so it goes both ways.

[chicagopurple]

I just cant understand people who focus on stats and ignore watching the real game and seeing how poor our passing game really was. Its not complicated. We had no meaningful deep passing game and it limited our entire offense. Period. Blatant. endless 3 yard passes dont help you win titles, they just create meaningless completion rates.

[fiestavike]

We had no meaningful deep passing game and it limited our entire offense.

I pretty much agree with this sentence.

[808vikingsfan]

#forJim

What the traditional stats don't show, however, is just how accurate Bridgewater is. The Viking led the NFL in 2015 with an accuracy percentage of 79.3. While this number is inflated by the large amount of short throws required by the Minnesota offense, it is no small feat to be the most accurate in the league. In fact, Teddy scored his best passing grades on throws between 10-19 yards, and broke even on throws over 20 yards.

[chicagopurple]

this back and forth is kinda silly. He isnt going anywhere. He has at least one more year to prove himself, which he wont be able to do unless he gets an NFL grade OL. Still, we have no viable back up and need to have someone in the wings learning. Improvement is imperative. No one can argue that point.

[losperros]

I just cant understand people who focus on stats and ignore watching the real game and seeing how poor our passing game really was. Its not complicated. We had no meaningful deep passing game and it limited our entire offense. Period. Blatant. endless 3 yard passes dont help you win titles, they just create meaningless completion rates.

Absolutely correct. The passing game was too often pathetic from its design to the on-field performances.

this back and forth is kinda silly. He isnt going anywhere. He has at least one more year to prove himself, which he wont be able to do unless he gets an NFL grade OL. Still, we have no viable back up and need to have someone in the wings learning. Improvement is imperative. No one can argue that point.

I agree with all the above.

I'm hoping the Vikings not only bring in someone who can be a good backup but can also push Bridgewater. But first things first. Fix the offensive line so that both the passing and running game can get better blocking.

[PurpleKoolaid]

If pretty much every pass that Teddy actually throws is a 5 yard dink play, he BETTER have reasonable accuracy ratings! I wonder if there is a stat that adds value to completion rate as the length of the pass increases? Something that would quantify true downfield accuracy and avoid QBs who pad their completion rates with meaningless 1-2 yard passes.

And win the division. Thats just horrible!

Just write a sig, saying how bad Teddy is. And then stop talking about it every effing post. Then if you are right, we get to start from zero, but you can wave a banner around about how right you were.

[Mothman]

Jim, you're usually a pretty reasonable guy and as someone who took the "wait and see" and "give um the benefit of the doubt" mentality for Ponder it seems strange to see you so aggressively "targeting" Teddy in a negative way, even if that isn't your intent that's how you come off when Poet posts something positive about the guy and you won't even slightly acknowledge it!

I get it if it's like a "fool me once shame on you" kind of thing, as George W would put it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A

So much for "cathartic"…

I'm dismissive of the vast majority of analysis that comes from PFF. Dead_Poet knows that and I have no doubt that's why he delighted in poking me with that PFF stat. I tried to give him the sort of response he obviously expected.

I also think that ranking is obviously a consequence of how often Bridgewater throws short, easy-to-complete passes, which isn't meant to say he isn't pretty accurate in the short-to-intermediate passing game.

I'm not "targeting" Bridgewater, just expressing my honest view of his performance and trying to contrast that with a level of confidence in him that, to me, seems unwarranted.

You also stuck in Frazier's corner and made reasonable arguments to defend him even when his team's were "struggling" but despite the good Zimmer's done so far you aren't ready to "crown him". That's fine btw, I'm just wondering why the change in your mentality when it comes to this new regime. (Teddy / Zimmer compared to Ponder / Frazier)

I've repeatedly said I like Zimmer and overall, I think he's doing a good job. That doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy people. If I see him continually receiving the level of unfair criticism I thought Frazier received, rest assured I will react accordingly.

One thing has definitely changed: I'm less patient. The Childress era rubbed me the wrong way from the start. The Frazier era frustrated the hell out of me and left me very disappointed. The Zimmer era has begun with the Vikings once again fielding an imbalanced team (strong defense, poor offense), a dynamic I grew tired of all the way back in the Green era. I've been waiting 39 years for the Vikings to get back to the Super Bowl. I'm convinced they need a good QB to get there and win it and consequently, I've been critical of Bridgewater because I'm concerned about his play and I don't want to see the organization repeat past mistakes, especially the "put all of their eggs in one basket" mistake they made with both Jackson and Ponder. I'm tired of moral victories and equally tired of seeing Teddy's completion percentage and "advanced" stats from PFF tossed out to impress while I watch the Vikings field an ineffective passing game with Bridgewater as it's centerpiece. I found his second season very discouraging and saw very little progress in his game.

I know it bothers people that I'm not on board with the "faith in Zimmer" attitude and the "This is Teddy's team, he's going to be great" mentality. Sorry, it's just not how I see it right now. I'm rooting for both of them. That will have to suffice.

[Purple bruise]

And win the division. Thats just horrible!

Just write a sig, saying how bad Teddy is. And then stop talking about it every effing post. Then if you are right, we get to start from zero, but you can wave a banner around about how right you were.

It does get beyond tiresome, but you probably hold the record for the most Ponder hating posts of all time, maybe a 1000

[CbusVikesFan]

I just cant understand people who focus on stats and ignore watching the real game and seeing how poor our passing game really was. Its not complicated. We had no meaningful deep passing game and it limited our entire offense. Period. Blatant. endless 3 yard passes dont help you win titles, they just create meaningless completion rates.

If a QB cannot make all the throws, at anytime needed, what is it that you call a QB? Mechanics, semantics. Who gives a rats ####? His delivery is horrible, he CANNOT make all the throws and if it wasn't for Diggs, his numbers would be much worse. It was already bad enough, don't you think?

[Mothman]

Why would anyone call Bridgewater a "dink and dunker"?

Shorter throws helped make Teddy Bridgewater NFL's most accurate QB

So, nice, Bridgewater was usually on the money. But context is needed here.

You probably don't need me to tell you that he often targeted receivers on shorter throws, but here you go anyway: Of his 447 attempts that weren't throwaways or batted passes, 60.2 percent traveled less than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage, including 16.1 percent thrown behind the line.

Bridgewater threw 16.8 percent of his passes in the 10-to-20-yard range, which surprisingly was his best depth range according to PFF's grading.

Bridgewater, meanwhile, attempted just 48 throws that went 20 or more yards downfield. That ranked 23rd among NFL quarterbacks, per PFF.

You probably don't need me to tell you that he struggled on those deeper throws, but here you go anyway: Bridgewater was accurate on just 37.5 percent of deep throws, which also ranked 23rd in the league. Trajectory and accuracy on deep balls is the biggest hole in his game right now.

Still, looking at the big picture here, it should be considered a positive that Bridgewater ranked in the top three in accuracy percentage in each of his first two seasons. That being said, it wouldn't be a bad thing if that accuracy percentage dipped because Bridgewater threw downfield more often.

The article even talks about him being extra cautious!