Bridge to nowhere

[The Breeze]

@PMR and Jim

Exactly what I noticed today with Wilson.
For weeks I've been wanting Norv to modify the routes the Bevell did recently in Seattle.
What stood out for me today was how effective the Seahawks short quick hitters softened our D, but it was Wilson's big arm and sick accuracy own field that blew the game open. The big play. The way it demoralizes a defense is just a perk to add to the 7's being rung up.
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So yeah, they can modify the system to help move thechains an open up the field, but if Teddy can't hit those guys in stride downfield, how the heck can he play QB in this league?
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Brady, Newton and Brees were mentioned... but Dalton, Rivers, Palmer and Carr...even Cutler and Kaepernick have that ability....and several others.

It's frustrating to watch...and we'll see much of it in the next 4 weeks.

[The Breeze]

The thing is it's not just Teddy, the O-line doesn't fit his offense either and can I ask if you think it's acceptable to have a run first mentality and give Peterson 8 carries in the game? In what world does that make sense? Like I said he's been fired at every other stop, what makes us think his offense is still relevant in today's NFL?

I agree. I think the 'run first' is kind of default facade too.
For a few weeks I've seen Norv and his system as the main culprit in this mess...but I'm also beginning to see that TB's shortcomings are huge liabilties when facing guys like Newton, Wilson, Rogers et al. Even moderate QBs with great Ds that won rings could hit guys downfield consistently...Dilfer , for example.
It's all for Zimmer to chew on as the season unfolds.

[losperros]

The thing is it's not just Teddy, the O-line doesn't fit his offense either and can I ask if you think it's acceptable to have a run first mentality and give Peterson 8 carries in the game? In what world does that make sense? Like I said he's been fired at every other stop, what makes us think his offense is still relevant in today's NFL?

Good question. I think Turner's system, if there even is one, is antiquated and inflexible. Time for a fresher approach.

It's also time to admit that the Vikings aren't really a run first team. They run first by default. That's because they have Adrian Peterson carrying the offense on his back but aside from that, it's a wash. The offense can't do anything else well.

As for the defense, it's much better than what we saw today but it still lacks depth. The Vikings were without some of their best D playmakers today and just look at the difference.

[PurpleMustReign]

@PMR and Jim

Exactly what I noticed today with Wilson.
For weeks I've been wanting Norv to modify the routes the Bevell did recently in Seattle.
What stood out for me today was how effective the Seahawks short quick hitters softened our D, but it was Wilson's big arm and sick accuracy own field that blew the game open. The big play. The way it demoralizes a defense is just a perk to add to the 7's being rung up.
-
So yeah, they can modify the system to help move thechains an open up the field, but if Teddy can't hit those guys in stride downfield, how the heck can he play QB in this league?
-
Brady, Newton and Brees were mentioned... but Dalton, Rivers, Palmer and Carr...even Cutler and Kaepernick have that ability....and several others.

It's frustrating to watch...and we'll see much of it in the next 4 weeks.

What I bolded and underlined is what shoud have happened weeks ago. The fact that we are still trying to have Teddy do 4+ step drops with this OLine is infuriating. If Darrel Bevel can figure things out, someone like Norv Turner should be able to as well.

[mondry]

I refuse to believe this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW4wTlXz62Q is a liability and has these "limitations" i keep hearing about that justifies how bad this offense looks this year compared to last year and justifies giving up on him already.

All these plays being made to Patterson, Jennings, and Johnson, and yet they can't sniff the field or were shipped out of town in Jennings case. Not to mention dat deep ball.... what? I thought he couldn't do that?

Also, for anyone who's looked at those vines in the "teddy needs to be more consistent" thread, check out the play at 1:09, look familiar? Aside from completing it to Jennings of course!

Even Norv's offense looks good like that so I just don't get it. Where are the quick hitting routes that allowed all our receivers to get all that YAC?

[Laserman]

I think I we do look at drafting a QB I wish THE FIRST thing they would look for is Downfield passing ability, you can't teach that. Either a QB has it or he doesn't. Much of the rest can be taught. In today's NFL the West Coast Baloney is a passing Fad on its way out. The Game manager Philosophy is Pathway to LOSING

[TSonn]

I refuse to believe this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW4wTlXz62Q is a liability and has these "limitations" i keep hearing about that justifies how bad this offense looks this year compared to last year and justifies giving up on him already.

We are actually averaging more yards per game this year than last year (333 to 318). We're down about 20 yards per game passing, though, but that also includes games from Ponder and Cassell.

I love those highlights. Looks like the line gave him some more time last year (at least during those throws in the highlights) and he was feeling more confidence with the offense and receivers. In comparison, it does look like Teddy has lost some confidence this year. So, what's different this year?

> OLine issues
> Wallace v. Jennings (and where's Charles Johnson?)
> He's taken a lot of hits this year - maybe injured?
> Winning record (more pressure? playing not to lose?)
> AD changes the game plan
> Defenses have tape on Teddy
> Endless amounts of things that fans have no idea about

I'm not really trying to list excuses - just trying to understand why seems to look a little different.

[The Breeze]

I refuse to believe this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW4wTlXz62Q is a liability and has these "limitations" i keep hearing about that justifies how bad this offense looks this year compared to last year and justifies giving up on him already.

All these plays being made to Patterson, Jennings, and Johnson, and yet they can't sniff the field or were shipped out of town in Jennings case. Not to mention dat deep ball.... what? I thought he couldn't do that?

Also, for anyone who's looked at those vines in the "teddy needs to be more consistent" thread, check out the play at 1:09, look familiar? Aside from completing it to Jennings of course!

Even Norv's offense looks good like that so I just don't get it. Where are the quick hitting routes that allowed all our receivers to get all that YAC?

I think there's a lot to be said for other teams having film on TB as maps of his tendencies reside in the folders of every opponent they face.
The problem, IMO, seems to lie in this groups inability to keep it's gameplan ambiguous for opponents.
I've been on TBs 'side' throughout, seeing the bulk of his struggles stemming from poor protection and playcalling. But just watching him in comparison to Wilson on downfield accuracy alone and how it changed the whole tone of the game, when I saw them getting the same amount of time to throw, has moved me into 'that feel when' Ponder played.
I see zero confidence and poor body language...
Regardless of what has changed, that to me is most significant.

[Pondering Her Percy]

As much as I hate to say this, Teddy and AP aren't a good match. Teddy is a shotgun passer, Peterson is an under-center runner. With Peterson not being able to run out of shotgun forces us to put Teddy under center more and he just doesnt do that very well at all and the offensive line doesnt help.

By the time Teddy gets into a 7 step drop, the line can't hold up and he can't make a decision. By him being in shotgun, he can go through his reads much quicker and has more time. He was in shotgun all the time at Louisville. Peterson has been in the "I" his whole career. They just aren't a good match for this offense. I think this is why we are seeing regression with Teddy. He's not comfortable coming out from under center and it gives him less time to go through his reads.

Granted we have to stick to running from under center so in turn, Norv HAS TO start running quicker routes for Teddy. If he doesn't, this is going to continue to get worse because it is way to easy to game plan against us right now.

[me4get]

...... same difference. Favre is a packer. Always was always will be.

BIG Difference.

[Mothman]

As much as I hate to say this, Teddy and AP aren't a good match. Teddy is a shotgun passer, Peterson is an under-center runner. With Peterson not being able to run out of shotgun forces us to put Teddy under center more and he just doesnt do that very well at all and the offensive line doesnt help.

By the time Teddy gets into a 7 step drop, the line can't hold up and he can't make a decision. By him being in shotgun, he can go through his reads much quicker and has more time. He was in shotgun all the time at Louisville. Peterson has been in the "I" his whole career. They just aren't a good match for this offense. I think this is why we are seeing regression with Teddy. He's not comfortable coming out from under center and it gives him less time to go through his reads.

Assuming this increasingly popular theory is correct, consider one of the implications:

Zimmer and Spielman, the men being counted on to build and shape this team into a winner, after scouting the QBs in the 2014 draft with significant input from Norv Turner and knowing Adrian Peterson was a major piece of their team, determined Bridgewater was the QB they should draft to build around. Bridgewater, whose skills appear to be a mismatch for the system Turner has been running for decades and apparently, for the formations in which Peterson thrives.

What does that tell us?

[mondry]

As much as I hate to say this, Teddy and AP aren't a good match. Teddy is a shotgun passer, Peterson is an under-center runner. With Peterson not being able to run out of shotgun forces us to put Teddy under center more and he just doesnt do that very well at all and the offensive line doesnt help.

By the time Teddy gets into a 7 step drop, the line can't hold up and he can't make a decision. By him being in shotgun, he can go through his reads much quicker and has more time. He was in shotgun all the time at Louisville. Peterson has been in the "I" his whole career. They just aren't a good match for this offense. I think this is why we are seeing regression with Teddy. He's not comfortable coming out from under center and it gives him less time to go through his reads.

Granted we have to stick to running from under center so in turn, Norv HAS TO start running quicker routes for Teddy. If he doesn't, this is going to continue to get worse because it is way to easy to game plan against us right now.

Yeah, we've talked about that in my other thread, it also seems like we continue to run the 7 step drops while leaving extra guys in to block where it's much better to send more guys out and just get rid of the ball quicker with a 3 step drop. That'd probably be better for Teddy too if we just did one thing, 3 step drop and the ball comes out, instead of this like "okay this ones a 5 step drop, this ones a 7, that one's a 3" which just makes it more complicated.

When you're leaving so many guys in to block and only sending 2 receivers out into the pattern its like okay Sherman takes one of them out cause that's what he does and they double cover the other one while run blitzing everyone else. If it isn't a running play well guess what, now you're pass blitzing. That's been the tried and true method of stopping the Vikings for the past couple years AD has been heavily involved.

Apparently Chargers fans were all turning on phillip rivers when Norv was there, like Rivers just sucked, now he's who we look to as a guy who can do well with a crap o-line and why teddy should be able to do well too. Of course Norv didn't figure it out there and I doubt he'll make the change here, either. We're Screwed for now.

But given what I see in that highlight video it can work when the offensive line can protect long enough and we don't have to leave extra blockers in. That seems to be the key so I hope we can massively improve the offensive line next year at all costs. I'd even trade some future assets to get it done if they have to. It's kind of crazy to see how much pressure we give up though while keeping more guys in to block. I guess it's one of those things, if the guy you're covering stays in to block you might as well just blitz yourself since you don't have anyone to cover.

We are actually averaging more yards per game this year than last year (333 to 318). We're down about 20 yards per game passing, though, but that also includes games from Ponder and Cassell.

I love those highlights. Looks like the line gave him some more time last year (at least during those throws in the highlights) and he was feeling more confidence with the offense and receivers. In comparison, it does look like Teddy has lost some confidence this year. So, what's different this year?

> OLine issues
> Wallace v. Jennings (and where's Charles Johnson?)
> He's taken a lot of hits this year - maybe injured?
> Winning record (more pressure? playing not to lose?)
> AD changes the game plan
> Defenses have tape on Teddy
> Endless amounts of things that fans have no idea about

I'm not really trying to list excuses - just trying to understand why seems to look a little different.

Yeah, they all kind of stand out to me but the winning record / more pressure might be another one not getting enough attention. Last year he was winging it around and you know the mentality was "we're not a playoff team yet, just go out there and have fun, this is your team now!" fast forward and it's "play it safe, don't turn it over, we're a power running team with AD here now, take a back seat!" and "we know what kind of team we are."

Obviously they aren't saying that exactly but it's definitely coming through in his play.

[Raptorman]

Everyone bad mouthing Teddy, but yet not one of you has put up a viable replacement from the draft or anywhere else.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Assuming this increasingly popular theory is correct, consider one of the implications:

Zimmer and Spielman, the men being counted on to build and shape this team into a winner, after scouting the QBs in the 2014 draft with significant input from Norv Turner and knowing Adrian Peterson was a major piece of their team, determined Bridgewater was the QB they should draft to build around. Bridgewater, whose skills appear to be a mismatch for the system Turner has been running for decades and apparently, for the formations in which Peterson thrives.

What does that tell us?

I see what you're saying but if you're going to refer to drafting Carr, he was no different in that aspect. Carr ran a ton out of shotgun as well in college.

Also, I think it's pretty clear that Norv had no clue AP couldn't run out of shotgun either. That showed in week 1. I think they were expecting that since he's the best RB in the game, he could run out of shotgun no problem and that clearly isn't the case.

[Craws84]

Good catch! My "around here" was more specifically this thread titled "Bridge to nowhere". Around the whole board there does seem to be a good combination of attitudes towards Teddy.
I would argue there is plenty of evidence that suggests any QB starting for us would struggle since that has been the only case aside from Favre. How many guys have we had since Favre? 6? And they've all put up pedestrian numbers.

Of course, I'd love for there to be evidence of the contrary, but that would mean we've had QB success since drafting AD. I love me some AD but maybe there is something to his game that hurts our passing game. Heck, it even seems like Teddy played better last year when AD was out. Sure there are other factors like a healthier line last year (although wasn't last year when Kalil was garbage?) and we had different receivers (Jennings v Wallace), but a consistent factor in our decade of bad QB play has been having AD in the backfield.

Agreed, my thoughts exactly.



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