Deflategate: Brady suspended, Pats lose draft picks & fined

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dead_poet
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by dead_poet »

Just for the sake of conversation, if this has been going on for years, it may have had the (perhaps originally unintended and wholly accidental) added effect of lowering Patriots fumble rates. Two separate studies seem to have concluded their fumble rate in comparison to the rest of the league has been "absurdly small"
benm: I think the much-maligned study by Warren Sharp about the Patriots having a low fumble rate should be taken more seriously, for sure. I mean, though it had flaws, at a very minimum that author correctly identified that the Patriots fumble rate has been absurdly small. I did my own calculations using binomial and Poisson models and found the same.
But the fun part is when you get all Bayesian about it. As I said at the time, the existence of the Patriots’ extremely low fumble rate, as a Bayesian matter, makes it much more likely that the Patriots were intentionally cheating – even though the link between fumble rates and inflation levels is only speculative. That’s the beauty of Bayesianism. But it gets better: Now that it seems likely that the Patriots were violating the rules to gain an advantage, the fact that they also had an extremely low fumble rate makes it more likely that the relationship between inflation levels and fumbling is real – and more likely that the Patriots have materially benefited from their cheating.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/five ... te-report/

When it's proven that teams that win the turnover battle win upwards of 78% of games
Statistics show that in the NFL, teams with positive turnover ratios have a significantly higher probability of winning. Over the past five full seasons, clubs with more takeaways than giveaways have a combined 810-220-2 (.786) record.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/co ... ord/26247/

this becomes a much larger issue in my eyes than Brady's grip on the football. It will be interesting to watch their fumble rates over the next two or three years now that their balls will obviously be even more closely monitored.
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Texas Vike
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Texas Vike »

Mothman wrote: I honestly don't think I'd view it any differently, especially this particular scandal because I remain unconvinced that any real competitive advantage was gained. The Patriots certainly didn't have any advantage related to under-inflated footballs in the second half of the conference championship or in their Super Bowl win over the Seahawks.

I think the report itself is a farce. For example:

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2015/05 ... -patriots/
I thinK Wells probably served up the report Goodell wanted, in the language he wanted (from what I've read, "more probable than not" is the exact language used in the NFL rulebook as the threshold under which they determine whether you violated a rule and thus, the exact language Goodell needs in order to hand down a punishment).

I'm not saying it's okay to cheat but I don't think anything more egregious occurred here than we've seen from NFL teams and players for decades. Unfortunately, the culture of doing whatever it takes to win even at the expense of the rules has been with the league for a long time. It's not something I like about the game but I don't believe for a second there are 31 teams playing by the book all the time while one constantly skirts around it and, consequently, has stayed on top for about 15 years.

Before we condemn the Patriots for cheating their way to their most recent Super Bowl win it would be nice if there was some actual proof that Brady actually wanted footballs deflated to a psi lower than that allowed by NFL rule. As far as I can tell, no such evidence has been found or presented.

Just for clarity's sake, am I right in assuming that the "Tom" mentioned in the text messages quoted up thread is Tom Brady?
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by indianation65 »

I'd surmise all teams have a way of "manipulating" something, in other words, might cheat. It appears the Patriots are the best at it.
Yes, I do not believe in the Patriots Super Bowls anymore, or TB. Yea, he's a good quarterback, but when I see/think of him, I think "cheater."

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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Mothman »

Texas Vike wrote:Just for clarity's sake, am I right in assuming that the "Tom" mentioned in the text messages quoted up thread is Tom Brady?
Yes.
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Mothman »

dead_poet wrote:Just for the sake of conversation, if this has been going on for years, it may have had the (perhaps originally unintended and wholly accidental) added effect of lowering Patriots fumble rates. Two separate studies seem to have concluded their fumble rate in comparison to the rest of the league has been "absurdly small"
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/five ... te-report/

When it's proven that teams that win the turnover battle win upwards of 78% of games http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/co ... ord/26247/

this becomes a much larger issue in my eyes than Brady's grip on the football. It will be interesting to watch their fumble rates over the next two or three years now that their balls will obviously be even more closely monitored.
I suggest this response to Sharp's flawed analysis of the Patriots fumbles:

http://regressing.deadspin.com/why-thos ... 1681805710

It's also worth looking at this site:

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats ... lost/2009/

Note that last year the Vikings actually had the fewest fumble and the fewest fumbles lost in the NFL! That Patriots were second.

In 2013, New England fumbled the ball 24 times, the 9th worst mark in the league.

4 teams fumbled fewer times than NE in 2012. 3 fumbled an equal number of times or less in 2011.

The Pats had the best mark in this category in 2010 but in 2009, there were several teams better again.

Ironically enough, when Manning was their QB, the Colts were typically fumbling fewer times per season than the Patriots did.
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Texas Vike
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Texas Vike »

Mothman wrote: Yes.

I know it isn't PROOF, but you asked for evidence that Tom Brady was involved. Don't those text messages smell funny to you? The impression I get from them is that TB rode these guys very hard about getting the PSI's to be lower than the allowed limit.
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Mothman »

Texas Vike wrote:I know it isn't PROOF, but you asked for evidence that Tom Brady was involved. Don't those text messages smell funny to you? The impression I get from them is that TB rode these guys very hard about getting the PSI's to be lower than the allowed limit.
Those texts were exchanged in the wake of the Jets game, during which, according to the report, Brady repeatedly expressed his anger that the balls were too inflated and obviously left MacNally and Jastremski aggravated. As one of Jastremski's texts illustrates, Brady had reason to be annoyed because the some of the balls were almost at 16 psi, which is much higher than the parameters set by the league.

It sounds like Brady could have handled it better because he obviously ticked these guys off and they did some venting. If he was angry during that jets game, I don't doubt he was riding them hard to make sure he didn't up having to throw a very over-inflated ball in future games.

I think some of the texts in the report do "smell funny" and strongly imply that Brady tasked them these guys with making sure footballs were at the psi he prefers. However, there's nothing in them, or (as far as I can tell) in the report to suggest Brady ever asked anyone to actually lower the psi of footballs below the legal limit.

I doubt Brady is completely innocent in all of this but the degree to which he knew rules were bring broken, or asked someone to break the rules, is unclear.
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Mothman »

I like these quotes from Mike Florio on the subject:

http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/new ... -patriots/
“Here’s the thing that bothers me the most on this and I can’t get beyond this,” said Florio. “The Colts let the NFL know of their concerns of the possible deflation of footballs and the days before the AFC championship game. Multiple league executives knew about it — setting aside for now someone should have told the commissioner who then could have called Bill Belichick and said, ‘If this is going on knock it off.’ Which would have avoided the entire probably for everyone assuming Belichick had complied.
“Let’s set that aside for now, fast forward to the game. Referee Walt Anderson is aware of the concern and then for the first time in Walt Anderson’s 19 years as an NFL official he looses the balls before the game. He can’t find the footballs. When he finds the footballs, knowing there is a concern about possible tampering with the air pressure in the footballs, he order that the balls be taken back to the officials locker room and tested then. Not, necessary for evidence against the Patriots, but to ensure they are at least 12.5 PSI because we need to respect the integrity of the AFC championship. We can’t knowingly allow balls deflated below 12.5 PSI to be used. They don’t do that. Thats what he should have done. It’s amazing to be that wasn’t done.
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Texas Vike
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Texas Vike »

Mothman wrote: Those texts were exchanged in the wake of the Jets game, during which, according to the report, Brady repeatedly expressed his anger that the balls were too inflated and obviously left MacNally and Jastremski aggravated. As one of Jastremski's texts illustrates, Brady had reason to be annoyed because the some of the balls were almost at 16 psi, which is much higher than the parameters set by the league.

It sounds like Brady could have handled it better because he obviously ticked these guys off and they did some venting. If he was angry during that jets game, I don't doubt he was riding them hard to make sure he didn't up having to throw a very over-inflated ball in future games.

I think some of the texts in the report do "smell funny" and strongly imply that Brady tasked them these guys with making sure footballs were at the psi he prefers. However, there's nothing in them, or (as far as I can tell) in the report to suggest Brady ever asked anyone to actually lower the psi of footballs below the legal limit.

I doubt Brady is completely innocent in all of this but the degree to which he knew rules were bring broken, or asked someone to break the rules, is unclear.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't know the context of that thread of messages.

Brady has every right to be particular about the PSI within the legal limits and you're right, the messages don't indicate any proof that he asked them to go under those limits.
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by 808vikingsfan »

Texas Vike wrote:
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't know the context of that thread of messages.

Brady has every right to be particular about the PSI within the legal limits and you're right, the messages don't indicate any proof that he asked them to go under those limits.
Why would Brady compensate anyone for properly inflating balls? Why would Mcnally threaten Jastremski to go to ESPN about properly inflating balls? It's obvious they're doing something that shouldn't be done.
On May 9, 2014, McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following text messages:

McNally: You working

Jastremski: Yup

McNally: Nice dude....jimmy needs some kicks....lets make a deal.....come on help the deflator

McNally: Chill buddy im just [expletive] with you ....im not going to espn........yet
As far as not having a competitive advantage, yeah, maybe for the first half of the superbowl for whatever reason. But what about getting to the superbowl? Some of the Ravens felt the balls were deflated during the playoff game and tipped the Colts during their playoff game. It could have made a difference in the Ravens game.
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by VikingLord »

Mothman wrote:I like these quotes from Mike Florio on the subject:

http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/new ... -patriots/
Maybe the league didn't want to avoid this? Maybe the league had already made that call and been told nothing was going on?

In short, maybe it had reached the point where they *wanted* to make a point of it.
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by dead_poet »

Interesting site: http://yourteamcheats.com/
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Mothman »

VikingLord wrote: Maybe the league didn't want to avoid this? Maybe the league had already made that call and been told nothing was going on?

In short, maybe it had reached the point where they *wanted* to make a point of it.

It sure looks that way.
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

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dead_poet wrote:Interesting site: http://yourteamcheats.com/
That's interesting! Thanks for the link. This will be a fun site to explore. So far, all I've looked at are the Vikings cheats...
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Re: Deflategate report is in: Brady "generally aware"

Post by Texas Vike »

808vikingsfan wrote: Why would Brady compensate anyone for properly inflating balls? Why would Mcnally threaten Jastremski to go to ESPN about properly inflating balls? It's obvious they're doing something that shouldn't be done. As far as not having a competitive advantage, yeah, maybe for the first half of the superbowl for whatever reason. But what about getting to the superbowl? Some of the Ravens felt the balls were deflated during the playoff game and tipped the Colts during their playoff game. It could have made a difference in the Ravens game.
I don't know how you roll, but me? With my friends? More than half of what we text is us BSing one another, exaggerating, giving each other a hard time, inside jokes, etc. Anyone reading our texts without knowing us and without (lots of) context ... well, I don't know WHAT they'd think! But they sure wouldn't have an accurate picture of reality, that's for sure. I don't think there's a smoking gun here at all.
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