Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 15

[Mothman]

I don't mean to be argumentative. I just think it's really impossible to tell what route he was supposed to run given the contact/stumbling.

I think it's clear, at least on film.

If it's a comeback, he has pretty good position because he is/was "in front" of the defender and "boxing him out" (at least until he dropped his hands to catch himself). It may not matter but who's defending him and does CJ have a distinct height advantage in that situation?

A receiver does't turn a comeback to the outside like that. He literally comes back to the ball. Just look at Johnson's body language in those screen shots. he's not coming back to the ball at all. He's going outside.

I'll say if he's supposed to be running full out to the sidelines and that's the spot Teddy decided to throw it than it's not just a bad throw, it's one of the worst of his professional career. Definitely possible. I think we can all agree it's not an accurate throw (should've at least been in front of CJ), so now we're just arguing how bad it was and if it was catchable or not.

As this point, I wish we could all agree it was a bad throw...

[Mothman]

I don't know if the ball was thrown well (I don't think it was, but I might consider it a better ball depending on what route Johnson was supposed to run), but the things that DO stand out to me are:

- Johnson was never open. The ball should never have been thrown to him.
- Bridgewater's feet are set well. Mechanics look good. No other players near him. He has a clear line of sight to his intended target. There is no excuse for an inaccurate pass on this play.
- Bridgewater has a pretty good pocket. Looks like he might have forced the pass earlier than he had to.

From what I can see, this is a timing play where Bridgewater intends to look off the coverage (he's looking more down the field after the snap), and either Bridgewater threw it to the wrong spot or Johnson ran the route wrong. Ideallly, this ball never comes out because regardless of the play's design Johnson is not open. But if the ball does come out, it has to be spot on and both the receiver and the QB need to hit the same spot at the same moment.

That's an excellent assessment.

[dead_poet]

A receiver does't turn a comeback to the outside like that. He literally comes back to the ball. Just look at Johnson's body language in those screen shots. he's not coming back to the ball at all. He's going outside.

In frame 5 he's going outside (horizontally). Frame 6 he's coming back in (facing Teddy). But at that point the ball is already delivered so he's now reacting to where it was thrown. Contact is made in the next frame and then we'll never know for sure. I suppose it is possible that there was route miscommunication, but it doesn't look that egregious to think that's the case. More likely it was a ball that didn't "lead" CJ enough. But from the positioning he still had the opportunity to catch it had he not stumbled. I will agree that he was well covered, but sometimes you let your guys try to win the one-on-ones even when there's not clear separation. I think CJ makes that catch more often than not (I still liked his position on a few frames boxing the defender out) or at least makes enough of a play on it that it lands incomplete. Obviously YMMV.

[Mothman]

In frame 5 he's going outside (horizontally). Frame 6 he's coming back in (facing Teddy). But at that point the ball is already delivered so he's now reacting to where it was thrown. Contact is made in the next frame and then we'll never know for sure. I suppose it is possible that there was route miscommunication, but it doesn't look that egregious to think that's the case. More likely it was a ball that didn't "lead" CJ enough. But from the positioning he still had the opportunity to catch it had he not stumbled. I will agree that he was well covered, but sometimes you let your guys try to win the one-on-ones even when there's not clear separation. I think CJ makes that catch more often than not (I still liked his position on a few frames boxing the defender out) or at least makes enough of a play on it that it lands incomplete. Obviously YMMV.

I'll just leave it at this: regardless of the route, it's wasn't a well-thrown pass. On a route like that, if the receiver has to leap to make the catch, it wasn't a good throw, especially against tight coverage. If CJ had kept his feet, he might have been able to catch it but as the shots of the Lions defender nearly getting his hand on the ball show, it was thrown too high. That's a pass that needs to hit the receiver in the numbers, in stride, or at least be low to the outside. The QB can't afford to throw it high because that exposes the receiver and/or risks an INT. In this case, we got the latter result.

[808vikingsfan]

He didn't run the route like he was supposed to sit. He breaks it going upfield and turns toward the sidelines, not back to the QB. If it was supposed to be a comeback route, it shouldn't have been thrown at all because he was covered.

If Johnson was supposed to run a comeback, then there is an obvious miscommunication between the QB and receiver.

I'll just leave it at this: regardless of the route, it's wasn't a well-thrown pass. On a route like that, if the receiver has to leap to make the catch, it wasn't a good throw, especially against tight coverage. If CJ had kept his feet, he might have been able to catch it but as the shots of the Lions defender nearly getting his hand on the ball show, it was thrown too high. That's a pass that needs to hit the receiver in the numbers, in stride, or at least be low to the outside. The QB can't afford to throw it high because that exposes the receiver and/or risks an INT. In this case, we got the latter result.

Still, a ball that could have been caught had his receiver ran a cleaner route. I wouldn't call it a horrible throw as some were describing it earlier.

We could just take Johnsons word that he would've caught it.

[Mothman]

Interested in seeing anything in it?? I see what I see and just like others have said in the Johnson thread as well, they don't believe it was necessarily a bad throw. Right now, somehow you do. What I said weren't excuses by any means.....I pointed out what the shots showed. What I am questioning is how do you not see that. He's putting his hands up in front of him and the ball was place in front of him.

Please look at the shots I posted again, specifically at the the shots where the ball is closest to the first Detroit defender's outstretched hand. Then look at the same basic moment in the shots Frosted posted (the second shot from the bottom). That's the point where the ball is closest to the two players and it must be at least 7 feet up in the air. It's almost directly above Johnson so, since he's in motion going from left to right, in no way was it placed in front of him.

I mean no offense but I think you are clearly misunderstanding the spatial relationships in these still shots. That's easy to do because they're still shots of plays in motion. They can be deceptive. For example, in the last shot of the first set of pics I posted, the picture about which you wrote "Then look at the very last shot at the bottom....the ball is right out in front of him as he is being tripped up", the ball is already past and behind Johnson and the LB covering him and it's coming down toward Quinn(?), the player who will intercept it. Compare that to the last shot Frosted posted and it should be more clear.

He breaks it towards the sideline and back toward Teddy, IMO.

You do realize that's physically impossible right?

[frosted]

You do realize that's physically impossible right?

Would appreciate if you didn't patronize me..It's most certainly possible, and Johnson demonstrates it in the route he runs on this play. It's breaking towards the sideline and back towards the line of scrimmage.



A comeback ^

[Mothman]

Would appreciate if you didn't patronize me..

It wasn't meant to be patronizing, just gently humorous. Sorry if if it seemed otherwise!

It's most certainly possible, and Johnson demonstrates it in the route he runs on this play. It's breaking towards the sideline and back towards the line of scrimmage.

Ah, but the line of scrimmage isn't the QB and the point of my misfired joke was that he couldn't have gone outside and inside simultaneously. Again, sorry that didn't come across as intended.

For what it's worth, I don't think he ever turned the route back toward the line anyway. He turns his body toward the QB to look for the throw but I don't see a point where the route was re-directed after the break.

[Mothman]

Thanks for the video. It helps and I see what you're saying but the plays are pretty different, especially the routes being run. Harvin's not coming out of a hard break like Johnson so it's an easier adjustment for him but more importantly, why would Bridgewater be " going for" a throw that requires his receiver to make such an adjustment on a simple down and out route?

I don't think they're all that different. In both plays, the receiver is covered. In both plays, there is a safety waiting if the ball is off the mark. I do understand what you're talking about when you say Harvin not coming out of a break is a difference, but I'm not sure that when it comes to ball placement and difficulty of the catch it's all that different.

If you look at frame 4 from frosted's post, it looks like Johnson has inside position, when Teddy is releasing the ball. When you look at frames 5 and 6, the pass is going right to where Johnson is located. What Johnson needs to do is curl back to the LOS and win a contested ball at that point, but he gets tripped up and goes low. When you look at frame 7 (very similar to your first capture) you can see that if Johnson was standing up where he's at, he is still well within position to catch the ball, in my opinion.[/quote]

I think the still shots are deceptive and make it appear that there's more time to do what you're suggesting than there was in reality. If you watch the play again, you'll see very little time elapsed between Johnson coming out of his break and the ball sailing above his head as he stumbled. In fact, I think he might have stumbled because he realized as he was coming out of his break that he needed to adjust and was unable to do it. That's just a guess though... sometimes a stumble is just a stumble.

To further explain, it you look at the defensive alignment, if Johnson can catch the ball and run to through the middle of the field (imagine him literally running in a circle where he breaks his route), the safeties are split and there is room for some good YAC. That is what I think Teddy was going for, and that's why I don't think that it was a bad pass.

To put it another way, if Teddy was expecting Johnson to run to the sideline, he was throwing a pass about 5 yards behind the receiver and towards 4 defenders. If he was throwing the pass the way I have interpreted it, he's a little high on a pass and leading Johnson to the middle of the field where the closest defender is Ihedigbo about 7 yards away. I know Teddy has had accuracy issues, but do you really think he missed that bad?

I do, unless Johnson ran the wrong route and based on when and where the ball was thrown, that seems unlikely to me. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but nothing about the route suggests to me that the play was ever supposed to go to the middle of the field. Johnson very deliberately took off upfield and made a hard cut right. The timing and direction of Teddy's throw suggests to me it was based on that cut. Here's a link to the play and hopefully, you'll be able to see what I mean. I wish they had included the replays, which show it more clearly.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201412140 ... &tab=recap

[DK Sweets]

Well, you see him stumble as a reaction to him realizing that he shouldn't be running towards the sideline, I see him stumble because as he is trying to turn around, his leg gets caught and his momentum carries him further towards the sideline than he intended.

What I mean by running in a circle is that I think Teddy was trying to lead Johnson left very similarly to the way that Favre led Harvin to the right in the video I shared ((in the Charkes Johnson thread, if anybody else is interested)). I don't think the play was designed to go that way, but base on how many defenders were flowing right, especially Glover Quinn, I think Teddy tried to send Johnson to the open space by bringing the throw in tighter to the center of the field. I'm almost certain I've seen a play between these two players that worked that way, but I can't remember what game it was (I suppose THAT really adds to the conversation, huh?).

And I actually have watched that view many times when trying to decide how I felt about the play. I really wish I had access to the all-22 film.

[Mothman]

Well, you see him stumble as a reaction to him realizing that he shouldn't be running towards the sideline, I see him stumble because as he is trying to turn around, his leg gets caught and his momentum carries him further towards the sideline than he intended.

What I mean by running in a circle is that I think Teddy was trying to lead Johnson left very similarly to the way that Favre led Harvin to the right in the video I shared ((in the Charkes Johnson thread, if anybody else is interested)). I don't think the play was designed to go that way, but base on how many defenders were flowing right, especially Glover Quinn, I think Teddy tried to send Johnson to the open space by bringing the throw in tighter to the center of the field.

If so, I'd consider that an odd choice under the circumstances. I don't think a QB should lead a player left as he's coming out of a hard cut right, especially if it takes him back in the direction of the defender trailing him in coverage. If Teddy tried to do that, I'd consider that an error in judgment but I'm more inclined to think he just threw an inaccurate pass that sailed on him.

I'm almost certain I've seen a play between these two players that worked that way, but I can't remember what game it was (I suppose THAT really adds to the conversation, huh?).

well, if you can remember it, I'll be happy to try to look it up on the coach's film.

And I actually have watched that view many times when trying to decide how I felt about the play. I really wish I had access to the all-22 film.

Speaking of that, I'm going to see if I have access to it now...

[DK Sweets]

If so, I'd consider that an odd choice under the circumstances. I don't think a QB should lead a player left as he's coming out of a hard cut right, especially if it takes him back in the direction of the defender trailing him in coverage. If Teddy tried to do that, I'd consider that an error in judgment but I'm more inclined to think he just threw an inaccurate pass that sailed on him.

I think you're getting stuck on the cut right. I think it was a comeback, similar to what frosted posted earlier. After he goes right, I think he was supposed to come back to the line of scrimmage. (Instead of planting his foot and coming straight back to the line, I think CJ rounded the top of the route.) I think Teddy was anticipating Johnson to be coming towards the ball and have the defender boxed out, so he tried to lead him to the middle of the field at that point.

[Mothman]

I think you're getting stuck on the cut right. I think it was a comeback, similar to what frosted posted earlier. After he goes right, I think he was supposed to come back to the line of scrimmage. (Instead of planting his foot and coming straight back to the line, I think CJ rounded the top of the route.) I think Teddy was anticipating Johnson to be coming towards the ball and have the defender boxed out, so he tried to lead him to the middle of the field at that point.

I suppose it's possible but I can't see anything about the play to suggest that was a comeback route. I'm focused on the cut because the cut seems like the key to the whole thing. I just made this pic of 3 screen grabs from the all-22 film before I saw your post and I think it will illustrate what I mean:

The first shot shows the moment when Teddy is about to release the ball. As you can see, it coincides with Johnson making the cut, which suggests this was a timing play and Teddy was keying his throw off that cut. That goes along with teddy's comment that this was supposed to be a "bang-bang" play. As you can see, Johnson makes his cut at about the 38 yard line. The next two shots show his path as basically horizontal. He's actually slightly further upfield, toward the 37. He's turning toward Teddy and the ball but not coming back toward the line of scrimmage. Everything about the play looks like a classic down and out route, designed for to CJ to beat the LB with the cut and for Teddy to hit him right out of his break. On a comeback route, the receiver typically drives the defender up the field and then cuts relatively hard back toward the LoS and the ball. That's not what Johnson did here at all and I'm confused as to why so many people seem to think this was a comeback route.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I suppose I'll put this in here instead of the Johnson thread.

I thought you wanted to drop the subject.

I provided the screen shot(s) for the benefit of you and others. I made it clear that my view of the play was based on repeatedly watching video. It wasn't based on an "off-angled screen shot" and you know that. I've tried to engage in a logical, good faith discussion with you today and you've been making thinly-veiled "someone" comments like the one above and giving me the equivalent of "I've formed my opinion, don't trouble me with the facts" in return. If you want to drop the subject, please drop it. If you don't want to see it discussed in this Charlie Johnson thread, please don't say that and then go right back to the subject in the same thread. If you've decided to continue discussing it, please do so in the game thread.

As for Johnson's comments... thanks for the link. It sounds to me like he believes he could have made the catch but that's the way receivers think. Maybe he could have caught it. I don't know but I think, as John Vivieros mentioned on Monday (or maybe it was Sunday night) that both Bridgewater and Johnson had each other's backs after the game so I take their comments about the play with a grain of salt. YMMV.

I was simply providing the link to basically try and end the argument. You say logical, good faith discussion yet you sit there calling what I am saying "excuses" and that I "think I know what I'm talking about but I don't" when literally nobody is agreeing with you. By me saying "someone" is just nitpicking. I wasn't going to throw your name all over the board and call you out. I meant nothing by it and was keeping it as civil as possible. As for the "forming my opinion, don't trouble me with facts" garbage....I've told you how I felt about the pass and its pretty darn similar to everyone else on here which is OUR opinion and what facts are you even providing??!!!

That you "think" you know what route he was running when you have no clue what the play call was??
That you "think" you know where the ball should have been placed when you didn't even have a clear view from the field??
That you "think" it wasn't a catchable ball when a 6'2 WR is basically bent over touching his toes, so in turn, you have no way to tell if it was or not??
That you "think" the LB had a better shot at it than Johnson did??
That you "think" you know how WR's think and basically imply that Johnson is talking out of his rear and just "has Teddy's back"??


....point is, there aren't any facts. There is nothing but speculation from both sides of the argument. My side, your side, DK's side, Frosted's side, etc. This is exactly why I put up that link was to hopefully drop this damn argument since you weren't changing anyones opinion on here and we weren't changing yours. But I suppose you can continue to beat a dead horse. I was simply trying to end something that wasn't going anywhere in the first place. All of us have repeated ourselves in just about every post which was the main reason I wanted to move on to something else. I was getting tired of typing the same thing over and over. I've never had anything against you as a poster and I was trying to be as civil as anyone today yet you try to turn it around to make it sound like I was the bad guy above. There wasn't a comment I had towards you that was trying to "take a shot" at you or anything like that.

[DK Sweets]

I truly see nothing in any of the screen caps that confirm your point of view. To be fair, I see nothing to prove my point of view, either. It's all subjective, and we're going to have different opinions on how the play was intended. I strongly believe I'm right, but I have no issue with you strongly believing that you are right. Everybody seems to have a different outlook on the play.

I have nothing to add to this conversation that hasn't been said, but I have enjoyed discussing it with you without it getting personal.