Vikings at Saints Game Thread - Week Three

[Thaumaturgist]

Never said it was ALL coaching but that is a big part of it. With the defensive backfield he has in Tampa bay, giving up 56 is pathetic. So what's his excuse there?

I honestly don't know much about the DB's/Safety's Tampa has. Are they known as elite?

[PurpleKoolaid]

I honestly don't know much about the DB's/Safety's Tampa has. Are they known as elite?

With Fraizer and Lewis running the show, I don't think elite matters. Im sure they have a few good DB's. We are so lucky to have Smith. He makes our CBs look better then they are.

[Pseudo Everything]

Mark Craig ‏@markcraignfl
The #Vikings ran 11 times on first down. They gained 21 yards, and 15 of them came on a Bridgewater scramble. Ouch.

Ouch is right.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It was highly successful in the 1970s. It was highly successful again from 1995-2003 when Dungy deployed it in Tampa, thus earning its name. The Carolina Panthers currently use the Tampa 2 and have been one of the league's best defenses. The Bears defense of 2012 ran the Tampa 2 under Lovie Smith with great success ... they were one of the most feared defenses in the league that season. And Super Bowl champion Seattle runs a scheme based on identical principles as the Tampa 2.

Also, the Tampa 2 is most effective against the pass ... in fact it was largely designed to counter, and is very effective against, the West Coast Offense. It gets exposed by teams with very effective rushing attacks, particularly in play action, and of course by very accurate passers (who can exploit every type of defensive scheme).

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

You're missing my point. I know teams previously ran it but it's fading and it's turning into a change of pace defense. And I'm not so sure the Tampa 2 is Carolina's base defense. They might run similar things at time but I don't believe it's their base defense. The articles below explain how only 2 coaches (Smith and Frazier) run it anymore and how it is fading. I never once said this has been a poor defense because in the past it was successful but the success rate and use of it now is very slim

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId= ... rc=desktop

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/29 ... in-the-nfl

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/1/1 ... he-defense

[Pondering Her Percy]

I honestly don't know much about the DB's/Safety's Tampa has. Are they known as elite?

Alterraun Verner, Jonathan Banks, Dashon Goldson, and Mark Barron.....yeah it's a pretty stacked defensive backfield

[Leafman]

You're missing my point. I know teams previously ran it but it's fading and it's turning into a change of pace defense. And I'm not so sure the Tampa 2 is Carolina's base defense. They might run similar things at time but I don't believe it's their base defense. The articles below explain how only 2 coaches (Smith and Frazier) run it anymore and how it is fading. I never once said this has been a poor defense because in the past it was successful but the success rate and use of it now is very slim

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId= ... rc=desktop

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/29 ... in-the-nfl

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/1/1 ... he-defense

Not missing your point at all. Here's what you said:

"... Tampa 2 defense is a joke..."

When I refuted that by explaining the effectiveness of the defense over the years, you replied with:

" ... Using a defense that was successful in the 1970s is a pretty poor example."

To which I explained that Tampa used the defense with great effect, as did the Bears (2012), the Panthers (currently), and even the Seahawks using a variation of the Tampa 2 whenever they run a 4-3 set (they are split about 50% between 4-3 and 3-4). The first article you post is from 2012, which was interestingly the same year the Bears were so successful running almost exclusively a Tampa 2. The second article you post is from 2009, which, given the later success of the Bears, Panthers, and Seahawks makes it premature. The third article you list is more about why the Tampa 2 doesn't work for the Cowboys ... again, personnel. The same reason it didn't work great for the Vikings.

The Panthers most definitely run a Tampa 2 ... it is a 4-3, they rush four and rarely blitz, they maintain single gap assignments, Kuechly has responsibility for dropping in to coverage on passing downs, and that coverage is soft-zone. The Seahawks do similarly out of a 4-3, although they tend more towards "Cover 3" rather than "Cover 2".

It would be correct to say that the Tampa-2 is fading as an exclusive, base defense ... but so are ALL defensive schemes. Most NFL teams have spent the last decade incorporating multiple schemes and producing hybrids to confuse QBs given the rule changes and the evolution of offenses, but the Tampa 2 is an extremely effective defense with the right personnel and will always be used as the primary counter to West Coast offenses. And that is why Frazier adopted it as DC here in Minnesota and kept it as head coach ... it is the most effective defense against West Coast offenses, and the NFC North was almost entirely a West Coast Offense division.

This "death of the Tampa 2" crap reminds me of the early 80s when, after the success the Dolphins, Raiders, Eagles and Giants had with the 3-4 over the previous decade, everyone was predicting the death of the 4-3 and that everyone would be using the 3-4 by the end of the century. But by 1995, only two teams were still using the 3-4, and suddenly everyone was declaring the "death of the 3-4" to be replaced by .... the Tampa 2. Now, over the last 15 years, we've seen a revival of the 3-4, and teams like the Seahawks are effectively using it in 50% of their defensive sets.

The Tampa 2 is going nowhere ... it is simply evolving and playing an important role in the constant metamorphosis of pro football strategy.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

[frosted]

http://www.bucsnation.com/xs-and-os/201 ... rs-defense

A very quick look at the Bucs struggles on Thursday night.

[Leafman]

http://www.bucsnation.com/xs-and-os/201 ... rs-defense

A very quick look at the Bucs struggles on Thursday night.

Great "short" article, and I share the author's perspective. That blatantly missed gap assignment by the LB is a prime example ... if the LB maintains gap integrity, that play goes nowhere ... instead it's a huge gainer. Not because of scheme, but because of execution and personnel.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

[Pondering Her Percy]

Not missing your point at all. Here's what you said:

"... Tampa 2 defense is a joke..."

When I refuted that by explaining the effectiveness of the defense over the years, you replied with:

" ... Using a defense that was successful in the 1970s is a pretty poor example."

To which I explained that Tampa used the defense with great effect, as did the Bears (2012), the Panthers (currently), and even the Seahawks using a variation of the Tampa 2 whenever they run a 4-3 set (they are split about 50% between 4-3 and 3-4). The first article you post is from 2012, which was interestingly the same year the Bears were so successful running almost exclusively a Tampa 2. The second article you post is from 2009, which, given the later success of the Bears, Panthers, and Seahawks makes it premature. The third article you list is more about why the Tampa 2 doesn't work for the Cowboys ... again, personnel. The same reason it didn't work great for the Vikings.

The Panthers most definitely run a Tampa 2 ... it is a 4-3, they rush four and rarely blitz, they maintain single gap assignments, Kuechly has responsibility for dropping in to coverage on passing downs, and that coverage is soft-zone. The Seahawks do similarly out of a 4-3, although they tend more towards "Cover 3" rather than "Cover 2".

It would be correct to say that the Tampa-2 is fading as an exclusive, base defense ... but so are ALL defensive schemes. Most NFL teams have spent the last decade incorporating multiple schemes and producing hybrids to confuse QBs given the rule changes and the evolution of offenses, but the Tampa 2 is an extremely effective defense with the right personnel and will always be used as the primary counter to West Coast offenses. And that is why Frazier adopted it as DC here in Minnesota and kept it as head coach ... it is the most effective defense against West Coast offenses, and the NFC North was almost entirely a West Coast Offense division.

This "death of the Tampa 2" crap reminds me of the early 80s when, after the success the Dolphins, Raiders, Eagles and Giants had with the 3-4 over the previous decade, everyone was predicting the death of the 4-3 and that everyone would be using the 3-4 by the end of the century. But by 1995, only two teams were still using the 3-4, and suddenly everyone was declaring the "death of the 3-4" to be replaced by .... the Tampa 2. Now, over the last 15 years, we've seen a revival of the 3-4, and teams like the Seahawks are effectively using it in 50% of their defensive sets.

The Tampa 2 is going nowhere ... it is simply evolving and playing an important role in the constant metamorphosis of pro football strategy.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

As the articles state, it's turning into a change of pace defense, Not something teams rely on as a base scheme. Of course teams use "forms" of it here and there but as a whole, teams have faded away from it. They wouldn't just write those articles for nothing. The reason I said it was a joke is because you can't rely on it in today's league anymore. Change of pace? Yeah. Something you rely on all game? No

[Leafman]

Those articles were opinion, and they were wrong, just like the opinions of similar pundits were wrong about the rise of the 3-4 defense and then the death of the 3-4 defense. The Tampa 2 is relied on by a lot of teams in every single game, it is far from a joke. It remains the single best defensive scheme to counter the West Coast offense.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

[fiestavike]

Those articles were opinion, and they were wrong, just like the opinions of similar pundits were wrong about the rise of the 3-4 defense and then the death of the 3-4 defense. The Tampa 2 is relied on by a lot of teams in every single game, it is far from a joke. It remains the single best defensive scheme to counter the West Coast offense.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

In my opinion the biggest problem with the Cover 2 at this point is that if played correctly it results in a 15 yard penalty. The rules have outlawed the kind of big hits that the defense is built around and the advantage a defense could get by keeping everything in front of them and arriving with the ball. Theoretically its still possible, but you eliminate a couple big pieces of what makes the defense effective. That's how I see it anyway.

[Leafman]

In my opinion the biggest problem with the Cover 2 at this point is that if played correctly it results in a 15 yard penalty. The rules have outlawed the kind of big hits that the defense is built around and the advantage a defense could get by keeping everything in front of them and arriving with the ball. Theoretically its still possible, but you eliminate a couple big pieces of what makes the defense effective. That's how I see it anyway.

They have definitely made the big safety hits, which were one element of the cover-2, much more difficult to execute. That does impact more schemes than just the cover 2, and other aspects of the Tampa-2 defense remain perfectly viable with the right personnel, as Carolina and Seattle demonstrate every week.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

[fiestavike]

They have definitely made the big safety hits, which were one element of the cover-2, much more difficult to execute. That does impact more schemes than just the cover 2, and other aspects of the Tampa-2 defense remain perfectly viable with the right personnel, as Carolina and Seattle demonstrate every week.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

That's fair. Also Seattle seems to do a good job of walking that line where they deliver the big hit and don't get flagged for it.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Those articles were opinion, and they were wrong, just like the opinions of similar pundits were wrong about the rise of the 3-4 defense and then the death of the 3-4 defense. The Tampa 2 is relied on by a lot of teams in every single game, it is far from a joke. It remains the single best defensive scheme to counter the West Coast offense.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

Nothing against you but after looking over 3 articles that are saying pretty much what I'm saying, one being espn, and many more out there, it's hard to believe someone on a message board over what I'm seeing and also believing. Especially when there hasn't been a whole lot of proof of teams using it as their primary scheme right now

[PurpleMustReign]

With the Tampa-2, you have to have the perfect personnel, something the Vikings were never even close with while they ran that defense.
To me, if you are going to run that defense, you need to make sure your people can do it effectively. The Bears had talent up the yin yang in the early 2000s, and so did Tampa in the same time frame. The Vikings were not even close to that high level of talent even if you took their best players from the last 20 years abnd played them together in their primes.