Do you want Johnny Manziel at #8?

[Pondering Her Percy]

Thanks and on that note, we're done. Thank goodness.

I agree. Plus this thread was getting de-railed pretty bad! Back to JFB

[Mothman]

I agree. Plus this thread was getting de-railed pretty bad! Back to JFB

JF who?

I don't think the rails of this thread are even in sight anymore.

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding Frazier but we're both optimistic about Zimmer so let's hope we have no reason to disagree about the Vikings coaching for a long, long time!

[mmvikes]

I agree. Plus this thread was getting de-railed pretty bad! Back to JFB

Thank you gentlemen.

[Pondering Her Percy]

JF who?

I don't think the rails of this thread are even in sight anymore.

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding Frazier but we're both optimistic about Zimmer so let's hope we have no reason to disagree about the Vikings coaching for a long, long time!

[Webbfann]

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding Frazier but we're both optimistic about Zimmer so let's hope we have no reason to disagree about the Vikings coaching for a long, long time!

But you can't agree to disagree and then suddenly stop disagreeing about it. If you're going to agree to disagree with no further caveats you are logically obligated to keep disagreeing. However you could agree to disagree while agreeing to stop arguing about it. But what fun would that be?

[John_Viveiros]

Yeah, you could really tell how much Cassel had set himself apart during his second start while he was throwing picks and the Vikings were losing to Carolina 35-3 late in the 4th quarter of a blowout loss. He really seized the opportunity Frazier gave him that day to take the job and keep it. It was equally clear in his next appearance, when he came in to relieve Ponder after the latter's second INT in Seattle and promptly threw an INT two or three plays later. Even after he got the job, his superiority was painfully obvious while the Vikings were being blown out again at Cincy and he was hurling 3 more interceptions to Zimmer's defense. Who can forget the way he missed a wide open Jared Allen in the endzone in the final game of the season and then threw a red zone pick to Louis Delmas two plays later to kill the Vikings chance to score?

Of course, his vastly superior 81.6 passer rating towered over Ponder's 77.9 and when you factor in his obvious superiority over the previous two seasons with the Chiefs, when he completed under 60% of his passes, threw 21 INTs in 17 games and had ratings of 66.7 and 76.6, it really is hard to see how Frazier missed the obvious stud QB in his midst.

Give me a break. I don't refuse to see how Cassel set himself apart, I just don't have an axe to grind against Ponder that blinds me to the qualities of the other QBs on the team. My eyes are open wide enough to see that for the most part, Cassel barely set himself apart at all and didn't really do so until later in the season. He definitely does some things better than Ponder but he's no more reliable or consistent and he's just as mistake-prone. He delivered one performance, against Philadelphia, that I'd consider completely beyond Ponder at this point in his career. Unfortunately, he also delivered some of the least effective performances by a Vikings QB last year not named Freeman.

The QB situation wasn't a "Frazier situation". If anything, it was a "Spielman situation", the result of a team with 3 backups and no legitimate starters. I know, I know... if they had only made Joe Webb the starting QB, the sky was the limit...

Edit: By the way, I know I laid the sarcasm on pretty thick there but I'm tired of hearing about the "utter incompetence" of Leslie Frazier from armchair coaches like yourself. It's not because I have any bias or personal axe to grind against Matt Cassel. I see him as a player with a good attitude who gives his all on the field and simply runs up against the wall of his own limitations at times.

I agree almost completely with the gist of what you are saying here. I have only slight disagreements, in the way of seeing the gray areas a bit of a different shade than you (or than sarcastic you). First, I think Cassel is a serviceable QB. In a vacuum, he's average, but I think he'll be better with the Vikings, because I think they've put together some decent offensive talent (just the AD run threat is significant). I noted a tendency to fail against tough defenses, though.

Lastly, as a fan, I was ready to show the-qb-who-must-not-be-named the door a long time ago. But the job of a GM is different. He has to make sure the guy can't play before cutting ties. I think we gave up on Rich Gannon too quickly, for example. So I think Spielman put together a roster of four qbs who had varying chances for success - all but Cassel were high risk/high reward guys to me - and wanted to see if he hit on one. He didn't. Poor evaluator of QB talent, or unlucky. It's hard to tell.

[Mothman]

I agree almost completely with the gist of what you are saying here. I have only slight disagreements, in the way of seeing the gray areas a bit of a different shade than you (or than sarcastic you). First, I think Cassel is a serviceable QB. In a vacuum, he's average, but I think he'll be better with the Vikings, because I think they've put together some decent offensive talent (just the AD run threat is significant). I noted a tendency to fail against tough defenses, though.

Lastly, as a fan, I was ready to show the-qb-who-must-not-be-named the door a long time ago. But the job of a GM is different. He has to make sure the guy can't play before cutting ties. I think we gave up on Rich Gannon too quickly, for example. So I think Spielman put together a roster of four qbs who had varying chances for success - all but Cassel were high risk/high reward guys to me - and wanted to see if he hit on one. He didn't. Poor evaluator of QB talent, or unlucky. It's hard to tell.

Well said, John. You guessed correctly that sarcastic me was the source of those different shades of gray and I think your comments about the way a GM needs to consider things are also true about a head coach (or at least the coach of a rebuilding team).

Let's hope Spielman has just been unlucky at the QB position thus far and that the next one he selects will be a home run.

[smallsnc]

My first post on here but I have been a Vikings fan for about 47 years.

My problem with Ponder at QB is that, if people had truly evaluated his play in college, they would have seen a quarterback with good physical gifts that lacked the speedy, accurate decision making required to be successful in the NFL. Nice kid, who, even in college, did not perform when the other team had DB's that came close to matching the speed of his receivers. Whomever was making the decisions leading up to draft day, GM or coaches, did not do their homework.

Schemes can be improved, systems taught, mechanics tweaked, but you cannot fix the speed of thought that a player has when under pressure.

Cassel has his faults but I do think he processes things quicker than Ponder.

Which leads us to Manziel. To me, most of Manziel's success came in broken plays or relying on his receivers (especially Evans) being able to go get the ball over the DBs. I did not see him make the quick reads and throws on regular basis that is required for success in the NFL. For me, if there is not a better option than Manziel at QB at 8 then we should trade down, get an extra pick or two and get a QB later. For me, Bordles is a better option.

[Purple bruise]

My first post on here but I have been a Vikings fan for about 47 years.

My problem with Ponder at QB is that, if people had truly evaluated his play in college, they would have seen a quarterback with good physical gifts that lacked the speedy, accurate decision making required to be successful in the NFL. Nice kid, who, even in college, did not perform when the other team had DB's that came close to matching the speed of his receivers. Whomever was making the decisions leading up to draft day, GM or coaches, did not do their homework.

Schemes can be improved, systems taught, mechanics tweaked, but you cannot fix the speed of thought that a player has when under pressure.

Cassel has his faults but I do think he processes things quicker than Ponder.

Which leads us to Manziel. To me, most of Manziel's success came in broken plays or relying on his receivers (especially Evans) being able to go get the ball over the DBs. I did not see him make the quick reads and throws on regular basis that is required for success in the NFL. For me, if there is not a better option than Manziel at QB at 8 then we should trade down, get an extra pick or two and get a QB later. For me, Bordles is a better option.

Hey welcome to the board and very good post. I agree with most all that you said but I still hold out hope that Ponder has a good career if not with the Vikings then with some other team. I guess the Titans and Jags must not of done their "home work" either drafting Gabbert and Luck before Ponder (note that a lot of fans wanted the Vikings to draft either one of them but they were both gone). Pretty much a crap shoot and 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. I am very intrigued by JFB and hope that he is wearing a Viking uniform this year.
Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

[King James]

Which leads us to Manziel. To me, most of Manziel's success came in broken plays or relying on his receivers (especially Evans) being able to go get the ball over the DBs. I did not see him make the quick reads and throws on regular basis that is required for success in the NFL. For me, if there is not a better option than Manziel at QB at 8 then we should trade down, get an extra pick or two and get a QB later.

Thank you!!!! I knew I wasn't the only person who thought Manziel was relying on WRs (mainly Mike Evans) to make ridiculous catches over WRs. I think we should trade down regardless whether Manziel is there or not. It's just something about him that makes me believe he won't be worth the hype he is getting in the long run.

[Purple bruise]

Thank you!!!! I knew I wasn't the only person who thought Manziel was relying on WRs (mainly Mike Evans) to make ridiculous catches over WRs. I think we should trade down regardless whether Manziel is there or not. It's just something about him that makes me believe he won't be worth the hype he is getting in the long run.

Score Texas Vike (1)

[King James]

Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!

I'll say it a 1000000000 times if I have to. As long as people know that Mike Evans did indeed bail out Johnny Manziel.

[Purple bruise]

Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!
Mike Evans bailed out Johnny Manziel!

I'll say it a 1000000000 times if I have to. As long as people know that Mike Evans did indeed bail out Johnny Manziel.

Don't you have some homework to do

[King James]

Don't you have some homework to do

Apparently you do too if you don't believe Mike Evans bailed out Manziel.

[Funkytown]

Apparently you do too if you don't believe Mike Evans bailed out Manziel.

Boom!