Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

[Funkytown]

To me, he has seriously undermined his own case.

I've gathered that you feel that way, and I think you have a point with it. I just don't think so much focus should be put on Kluwe. He and what he did/said aren't the biggest issues, for me. Because, I actually believe what Kluwe said, so I'm forming my comparisons and opinions based on that.

[NextQuestion]

I think it's odd that nobody gives credit to Kluwe for waiting until after 1 1/2 seasons for telling this story. I'm assuming that the ol' "Nuke em" line was said in late October...right before the "Vote No/Yes" election. Think if Kluwe caused a storm then? We were a winning record/.500 team.

Also...he's said many times he didn't want to do it during this season because he still had tryouts and didn't want to cause a stir for the Vikings and friends still on the team. He likes the Vikings as an organization and he's been very clear about that. Can you guys imagine dealing with this story during a 5-10-1 season?

[Just Me]

This is for "King James" - with NO due respect. Go f*** yourself. What you said was the most ignorant possible thing you could say. I dare you to say that to gay/lesbian community. You are a loser and need social education. When did you choose to be straight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHYoY

Oops, I'm sorry, is "uneducated" an offensive word now?

I mean this with all due respect, but you assert that "uneducated" persons believe it is a matter of choice. I am undecided. Has there been a definitive psychological or physiological characteristic for determining one's sexual orientation? From what I've read, psychologists 'believe' it is from a multitude of factors, and yet they are unable to identify specifics. That, in my opinion, is a suspect conclusion.

[Funkytown]

Your sarcasm is pretty obnoxious at this point.

Thank you. You're sweet.

I'm not "afraid" of getting kicked off the message board.

Why did you take my general comments personally? Just curious. You helped prove my point about sensitivity and hypocrisy. Thank you!

...and I know for sure what I would've done had I been in his same situation.

Good for you. I can't say the same, because I only know for sure when I'm in it. And, heck, even then things can be tricky!

If he TRULY cared about his cause, he wouldn't have worried about losing his job (even though he would've gotten support from the guy who makes the whole show go on in Minnesota).

What cause? His support for the gay community or trying to keep the peace at work as best he could to remain employed? I don't think they are/were the same issue. And, yes, if he was concerned about keeping his job, he would have been worried about losing his job.

If he was REALLY strapped for cash, he wouldn't have released a statement at all after getting CUT from Oakland with hopes that he could still make money in the NFL in the future.

I don't think wanting to keep one's career as long as possible is always about cash or being broke. I don't think he is. I hope I didn't imply that. I just think, he was an NFL player, of course he's going to want to hold on to that career as long as possible. And, yes, it was his main source of income to support himself and his family. Punter money doesn't last forever, does it? Having a family and a nice little, comfortable life in California probably isn't cheap. Of course he wanted to keep his punting job. Once those hopes were over...this happened. I don't deny things are a bit suspicious, or that they seem vindictive, but I'm not as concerned about the timing or "his motives" as I am with the rest.

[NextQuestion]

I mean this with all due respect, but you assert that "uneducated" persons believe it is a matter of choice. I am undecided. Has there been a definitive psychological or physiological characteristic for determining one's sexual orientation? From what I've read, psychologists 'believe' it is from a multitude of factors, and yet they are unable to identify specifics. That, in my opinion, is a suspect conclusion.

Let me break it down for ya: Do you think someone Gay or Lesbian would be like "Yes, I would like to be apart of something people fear, hate, and sometimes unfortunately...get killed for in hate crimes". I suggest talking to someone who is gay. Around 10-12 years ago I had two close friends come out and say to me over a phone call, "I'm sure you've known for awhile, but I've always liked dudes. Thanks".

[Funkytown]

Let me break it down for ya: Do you think someone Gay or Lesbian would be like "Yes, I would like to be apart of something people fear, hate, and sometimes unfortunately...get killed for in hate crimes". I suggest talking to someone who is gay. Around 10-12 years ago I had two close friends come out and say to me over a phone call, "I'm sure you've known for awhile, but I've always liked dudes. Thanks".

For me, it's common sense. Although, now, it is backed up by many studies. I highly doubt millions of children, teens, or even adults woke up one day and were like, "Hey! I'm going to be gay today! But not just today, every day! Yeah! I'm going to choose this lifestyle that a good portion of the world finds completely disgusting. I want to be hated on, possibly disowned by my family, discriminated against, and possibly told things like, "You're disgusting!" and "That's wrong!' and "You're going to burn in hell for your sins!" for the rest of my life!"

Ah, yes. That sounds like a grand ol' time, doesn't it? Like a big ol' party! Common sense: Not a choice. Many studies: Not a choice.

Regardless, even if it was a choice, that doesn't make Priefer's comments any more acceptable or funny. People commit suicide over these sorts of struggles. Homosexuality is a very serious topic. I can't wait for the time when it's not. I hope Priefer understands the seriousness of his comments, and I believe people can change with more knowledge and acceptance.

[Just Me]

Let me break it down for ya: Do you think someone Gay or Lesbian would be like "Yes, I would like to be apart of something people fear, hate, and sometimes unfortunately...get killed for in hate crimes". I suggest talking to someone who is gay. Around 10-12 years ago I had two close friends come out and say to me over a phone call, "I'm sure you've known for awhile, but I've always liked dudes. Thanks".

I get that. But your assertion was tantamount to saying it's a proven fact that sexual orientation is not a choice. I'm just wanting the basis for that conclusion.

If it's a logical assumption that no one would "choose" that lifestyle, them I'm OK with that. That does not make someone who believes otherwise "uneducated." To be educated would be to explain the psychological and/or physiological reasons. Then with irrefutable evidence presented, the person(s) who believed otherwise would be either uneducated (if they are unaware of the evidence) or willfully stupid. Just because someone disagrees with your conclusion, doesn't necessarily make them uneducated. That was my only point.

[Just Me]

For me, it's common sense. Although, now, it is backed up by many studies. I highly doubt millions of children, teens, or even adults woke up one day and were like, "Hey! I'm going to be gay today! But not just today, every day! Yeah! I'm going to choose this lifestyle that a good portion of the world finds completely disgusting. I want to be hated on, possibly disowned by my family, discriminated against, and possibly told things like, "You're disgusting!" and "That's wrong!' and "You're going to burn in hell for your sins!" for the rest of my life!"

Ah, yes. That sounds like a grand ol' time, doesn't it? Like a big ol' party! Common sense: Not a choice. Many studies: Not a choice.

Regardless, even if it was a choice, that doesn't make Priefer's comments any more acceptable or funny. People commit suicide over these sorts of struggles. Homosexuality is a very serious topic. I can't wait for the time when it's not. I hope Priefer understands the seriousness of his comments, and I believe people can change with more knowledge and acceptance.

I have read some of those studies. Is there one that definitively makes that claim? If so, what are the specific causal factors?

[PurpleKoolaid]

This is for "King James" - with NO due respect. Go f*** yourself. What you said was the most ignorant possible thing you could say. I dare you to say that to gay/lesbian community. You are a loser and need social education. When did you choose to be straight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHYoY

Oops, I'm sorry, is "uneducated" an offensive word now?

If it was directed at me, yes. I find it highly offensive since I had to pay my way through college. Im betting your parents paid for yours?

Where the heck is GLG when NextQuestion is attacking anyone that is less 'tolerant' then himself? King James may have some wacky ideas but you no rights to personally attack him like that.

[Funkytown]

I have read some of those studies. Is there one that definitively makes that claim? If so, what are the specific causal factors?

Definitively? I'm not sure. I know there is a heck of a lot more evidence towards it not being a choice, though. I would gladly do some research for you, but honestly, this topic has me so far behind on my actual homework, it's not even funny! I'm being naughty!

[Just Me]

Definitively? I'm not sure. I know there is a heck of a lot more evidence towards it not being a choice, though. I would gladly do some research for you, but honestly, this topic has me so far behind on my actual homework, it's not even funny! I'm being naughty!

Just trying to stay educated (seriously). It is widely accepted by psychologists that it is NOT a choice, but last I had checked on the subject, there was nothing definitive. (I've been out of college for "few" years now, though. )

[Funkytown]

Where the heck is GLG when NextQuestion is attacking anyone that is less 'tolerant' then himself? King James may have some wacky ideas but you no rights to personally attack him like that.

"Come on, man. It was just a joke."--...Priefer?

...just as Priefer had no right to taunt Kluwe for being MORE tolerant.

The hypocrisy continues...

[NextQuestion]

Ha, hypocrite much? You're the one attacking me by saying I'm some trust fund kid who didn't have to pay for college. Doh' Kay! Where does that come from?

King James deserves to get ripped for what he said as it is not educated at all and people will take offense to what he said. You can choose to be liberal, conservative, Jewish, Catholic, etc but sexual orientation is something you're born with.

Seriously, props for the mods letting this thread go. I'll be happy to talk football with you guys n gals in other threads and leave personal things aside, but if we're going to be open on this topic...let's keep it that way.

Also:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... nt-3078456

[Funkytown]

Just trying to stay educated (seriously). It is widely accepted by psychologists that it is NOT a choice, but last I had checked on the subject, there was nothing definitive. (I've been out of college for "few" years now, though. )

That's admirable. I'm glad you are trying to stay educated and open. I mean it. That's awesome.

A few years, huh? What...? You're like 29, right?

[Just Me]

King James deserves to get ripped for what he said as it is not educated at all and people will take offense to what he said. You can choose to be liberal, conservative, Jewish, Catholic, etc but sexual orientation is something you're born with.

I get why you believe that, but I'm still waiting for some empirical evidence to support your assertion.

Without it, I can make the statement that it's something you're not born with and it becomes a "did too"-"did not" argument.

I'm not making the argument that it's definitely a choice, because I have no evidence to support that either.