"If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all season

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Purple bruise
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by Purple bruise »

Texas Vike wrote: It is not hindsight if a lot of posters were saying it in September. It was clear to many on this board that Cassel gave us the best chance to win from early on in the season.

Robinson was failing BIG TIME, over and over. Frazier didn't make any changes until injury forced him to and LO AND BEHOLD his substitute, Rhodes, comes on and looks worlds better.

Patterson wouldn't need to cut into Simpson or Jennings' playing time necessarily. Many of us were calling for fewer 2 TE sets to get our best talent on the field. Then again, Ponder doesn't seem to like throwing to WRs much (except for Simpson), so maybe that was their thinking? Who knows.

Frazier is slow to react to clear evidence and it will be his downfall. it's too bad because there are plenty of things he does right.
Yeah a lot of posters say a lot of things all the time. Such as what a bust it was to draft Patterson in the first place. Lets trade AP, lets not trade JA. What a waste signing John Carson (who got hurt his first year but the team stood by him and resigned him the second year to every ones complaining. How they should have re-signed Harvin and how stupid that was. Other team's posters saying that it was a great thing to have drafted Vince Young, or Jamarcus Russel etc. etc. Again 20/20 hindsight :lol:
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by Mothman »

Texas Vike wrote:So, Jim, you think Frazier's sticking with Ponder over Cassel has been an intelligent decision?
I think it has been an understandable decision. It depends on how it's viewed. Frazier took over a rebuilding project and Ponder was placed at the center of it. Whether that's because Spielman said "here's the guy we want you to develop as our QB" or whether he and Frazier made the choice together, Ponder was the QB they committed to develop and Spielman repeatedly said it would take 3 seasons to make their assessment. Again, I don't know know to what extent Frazier bought into that and to what extent he may have been asked to stick to it but Ponder was the younger QB, Ponder was the guy they definitely had under contract going forward and Ponder was the player they had invested so much time and energy in. Cassel signed a short contract, he can opt out of it, and is a 31 year old journeyman QB. I get the argument that he may have given them a better chance to win immediately but in keeping with the rebuilding effort, I think Frazier was taking the long view and trying to develop Ponder, trying to work him through the problems in his game and I think that's an understandable decision.

As I wrote earlier this morning, the "script" this season has played out more or less the same whether Cassel or Ponder was in at QB. With Ponder at QB, they were in position to win games with late 4th quarter leads against Chicago, Cleveland, Green Bay and Dallas and they came up short. The same thing happened with Cassel at QB yesterday. The Pittsburgh game and the home game against the Bears played out in similar fashion but against the Steelers, the defense held in the final minute and against the Bears, Gould missed the OT field goal that would have won it and that opened the door for a win. Both QBs were on the wrong end of blowout losses too.

Cassel sees the field better than Ponder and he's more accurate but I think Frazier was trying to develop the long term answer rather than going with the short term "solution" and that's an understandable, if controversial, choice. For all the criticism Ponder receives (much of it well-deserved) he's still posted two of the three highest QB ratings the Vikes have this year. His completion percentage is higher than Cassel's and there's not a big disparity in their average yards per attempt. At this point in their respective careers, Cassel is the superior QB. His skills are more refined but I don't think the disparity between the two players is so significant that playing Ponder serves as the condemnation of Frazier's judgment that many make it out be,. At this point, that probably puts me in a minority of one but that's how I see it. :) They were trying to build Ponder into the better of the two QBs because, if they could, he offered them more in the future. Unfortunately, he just hasn't shown the necessary progress and consistency in his development.
Also, when Rhodes FINALLY got into the starting lineup he looked the part immediately. He was very obviously superior to Robinson IMO.
Rhodes has played significant minutes all season. I didn't see any transformation in his game related to making him the starter. To me, it looks like he has gradually improved. I have no idea if limiting his role earlier helped in that development or not but I can see how it might have helped. Either way, it's a coaching call I'm not qualified to make and I definitely don't see it as a clear cut mistake. The coaches took the path they thought would serve him best and we can see the improvement in his game. The same is true for Patterson. Maybe they actually deserve some credit for that. We don't know if taking a different path and thrusting more responsibility on the shoulders of rookies would have yielded different and/or better results. I'm perfectly willing to concede the possibility that the team could have been better off if those two players had been installed as starters on day one but I think we have to at least acknowledge the possibility that experienced coaches may have made the right call in their approach to developing those young players.

It's ALL debatable, from scheme to personnel management and my point isn't really to defend Frazier and say that he was right but rather to say I see no definitive way to say he made the wrong choices with some of these moves.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by mansquatch »

Jim my view on the QB situation is similar to yours. However, we part ways on a few points:

1.) I think after the Browns game it was obvious that Ponder hadn't moved forward. Furthermore, after the London game there was a very obvious difference in competence between the two. Given that at this point we had seen Ponder start some 30 or so games, to me it was getting obvious that whatever Ponder will be, it isn't the long term answer. To me the question of this is the timing, I think here Frasier stuck with Ponder too long.

As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Freeman was started at hte behest of Spielman and after it blew up, Frasier told him to stick to personnel and let Frasier stick to coaching. That is purely my opinion, but given what we've seen I do not see a likely scenario where Frasier would compromise his locker room like that.

2.) Scheme wise I think the cover 2 is becoming dated, but we've seen them throw more than Tampa 2 on the field. I'm less inclined to ride the anti Frasier bandwagon on this issue than I was earlier in the year. It is obvious that Frasier has seen this defense through a rough patch and gotten it to play, despite many injuries, at a higher level than it did week 1. That to me a is a positive.


4 weeks ago I was all in on canning Frasier. Heck 2 weeks ago. Now I'm skeptical. There are some real positives to him IMO. The issue with his starters in stuck in my craw though. At this point I would argue personnel are as much an issue (specifically the QB) as Frasier's coaching.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by NextQuestion »

According to Sullivan on PA's show today: Cassel checked into the shotgun draw run for a TD by Gerhart. Wasn't a Musgrave call
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by LesSteckellives »

Matt Cassel is not the long-term answer at QB, and I don't believe we have one on this roster. He is the best that we have, but that's only because the other two are so God-awful. This position needs to be addressed in the draft, and hopefully it's not another Ponder. Until the QB position is fixed, the rest doesn't really matter.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:Jim my view on the QB situation is similar to yours. However, we part ways on a few points:

1.) I think after the Browns game it was obvious that Ponder hadn't moved forward. Furthermore, after the London game there was a very obvious difference in competence between the two. Given that at this point we had seen Ponder start some 30 or so games, to me it was getting obvious that whatever Ponder will be, it isn't the long term answer. To me the question of this is the timing, I think here Frasier stuck with Ponder too long.
I understand and that's a fair and reasonable viewpoint.
As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Freeman was started at hte behest of Spielman and after it blew up, Frasier told him to stick to personnel and let Frasier stick to coaching. That is purely my opinion, but given what we've seen I do not see a likely scenario where Frasier would compromise his locker room like that.
I don't either and I think that's exactly what happened. I also think that may explain why Frazier stuck with Freeman for 4 quarters in that game.
2.) Scheme wise I think the cover 2 is becoming dated, but we've seen them throw more than Tampa 2 on the field. I'm less inclined to ride the anti Frasier bandwagon on this issue than I was earlier in the year. It is obvious that Frasier has seen this defense through a rough patch and gotten it to play, despite many injuries, at a higher level than it did week 1. That to me a is a positive.

4 weeks ago I was all in on canning Frasier. Heck 2 weeks ago. Now I'm skeptical. There are some real positives to him IMO. The issue with his starters in stuck in my craw though. At this point I would argue personnel are as much an issue (specifically the QB) as Frasier's coaching.
I definitely think personnel is the bigger issue. I don't think Frazier has a roster that can win consistently. He hasn't been able to get the most out of them this year and that's a strike against him but with a better starting QB (ie: better than anyone available on the roster right now) and an impact player or two on defense, I think he might do much, much better. I think he needs to reconsider his choice of coordinators though.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by Funkytown »

NextQuestion wrote:According to Sullivan on PA's show today: Cassel checked into the shotgun draw run for a TD by Gerhart. Wasn't a Musgrave call
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by Purple bruise »

LesSteckellives wrote:Matt Cassel is not the long-term answer at QB, and I don't believe we have one on this roster. He is the best that we have, but that's only because the other two are so God-awful. This position needs to be addressed in the draft, and hopefully it's not another Ponder. Until the QB position is fixed, the rest doesn't really matter.

I agree that there needs to be a better option at QB no doubt. BUT yes other things do matter a whole lot.
These QBs have had the Viking in winnable situations many times this year just to watch the defense fall apart. I say that fixing the defense is priority one. Even Cassel, as pedestrian as he is, could be good enough in most instances (with AD there) to win games but not with this defense.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by Mothman »

NextQuestion wrote:According to Sullivan on PA's show today: Cassel checked into the shotgun draw run for a TD by Gerhart. Wasn't a Musgrave call
In that case, well done , Matt Cassel!

The o-line really delivered on that play. Gerhart had a great hole to run through and build up some momentum. Once he gets going in the open field, he runs like a tank!
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by S197 »

Souhan wrote an article not long ago about how none of this is Frazier's fault, poor Mr. Nice Guy was put into such an awful position. All he does is flip flop constantly (he did the same thing with his Ponder articles), I wish he and Zulgad would stop writing.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by mondry »

mansquatch wrote:Hindsight is one thing, and I get that. But IMO, there have been several instances where a guy is not starting who by many rational indications would seem to be better than the guy in front of him. The QB situation this season is a prime example.

As I've stated, to me this is a concern. The issue is how long it has taken for guys to either develop or in the case of injuries a guy is replaced by his backup and the backup looks better than the starter. This begs the question of why didn't the guy start sooner? Obviously the coaches agree with this to some extent as Erin Henderson is healthy and yet he is playing Will while Cole continues to play Mike. You have to ask "Would EH have stopped playing Mike in favor of Cole had he not had off the field issues?" All indications are that the answer to this is No. This to me is a problem.

Note that this is a different issue than saying "what if they had started week 1." I agree with question of their development from then to now. However, we still wonder if say in the case of Mike, whether Cole was good enough to replace EH in week 4 or 5 or 6 vs Week 13. We'll never know on this one.

We also saw this with Patterson early on. He is raw, was raw, etc. But when he got on the field he was electric and even Frasier said during pressers that this needed to be fixed. Again, why was it a problem in the first place? Why does it take an injury to get some of these guys on the field?
Getting to the thread late but definitely wanted to quote this and give my support. I think the completely obvious answer is that had these guys not gotten hurt or had off the field issues, their back up would have never sniffed the field. In that regard, it has nothing to do with who should start in week 1 or any of that, but that we have MULTIPLE situations in which a guy comes in and plays significantly better than his counter part a mere 6-7 days later and ONLY because the coaches hand was forced.

It's enough evidence to say Frazier doesn't have a good enough eye for talent at minimum and a whole bunch of bad stuff at maximum.

As for the article, I think it's as simple as Frazier is a bad coach, but a helluva guy. He isn't a Childress that loses the respect of his team nor will they HATE him. These guys are professionals so I see no reason for them to just quit on Frazier.

Btw, anyone can succeed with a great quarterback, that's probably true, but I think coaching plays a significant part of making a great QB and the offensive system has to be just the right fit for a guys talents and skills. Once in 10 years you can luck out and get a Peyton Manning but other than that, pretty much everyone else needs to develop and get significant help from the coaching which we just don't have with Frazier.

The perfect example of an average / likable coach getting a top QB is Tony Dungy. After many "bleh" seasons in tampa he gets fired and hired by the colts and even with what some will argue as the best QB of all time, he wins 1 lone super bowl out of 13 career seasons, nearly wasting Manning's Career like Frazier will waste AD's. How did it happen? Well there was always one coach in his division who out coached him in the playoffs every year by the name of Bill Belichik. When it comes to winning in the playoffs, it takes more than a nice guy coach and a good QB. So yeah, Frazier's record might not look like the total garbage that it currently is if we had Peyton Manning but make no mistake that doesn't translate into super bowl wins.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by chicagopurple »

Leslie is NOT a top notch NFL coach. He fails on many levels. MIGHT he be a passable coach on a team with lots of talent? Maybe. But who gives a crap. I havent spent 40 yrs bleeding purple just to settle for cheap mediocrity. If ownership is "satisfied" with Frazier. Then i am no longer satisfied with being a Viking fan. Enough of this bargain-basement coaching talent. Coaches are cheap compared to players. There is no excuse for settling for a coach in training pants. I am sick and tired of this crap.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

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mondry wrote:The perfect example of an average / likable coach getting a top QB is Tony Dungy. After many "bleh" seasons in tampa he gets fired and hired by the colts and even with what some will argue as the best QB of all time, he wins 1 lone super bowl out of 13 career seasons, nearly wasting Manning's Career like Frazier will waste AD's. How did it happen? Well there was always one coach in his division who out coached him in the playoffs every year by the name of Bill Belichik. When it comes to winning in the playoffs, it takes more than a nice guy coach and a good QB. So yeah, Frazier's record might not look like the total garbage that it currently is if we had Peyton Manning but make no mistake that doesn't translate into super bowl wins.
Ugh. You had to bring up the "1 lone super bowl" argument, didn't you? It's HARD to win a Super Bowl so winning even one is excellent. Coaches who win more than one are usually blessed with great teams, great luck (and often great GMs/organizations behind them). There have been some very good NFL coaches who were never able to win a Super Bowl at all so it's ludicrous to suggest Tony Dungy "almost wasted" Peyton Manning's career.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

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Mothman wrote: In that case, well done , Matt Cassel!

The o-line really delivered on that play. Gerhart had a great hole to run through and build up some momentum. Once he gets going in the open field, he runs like a tank!
I absolutely loved that play. Great job by everyone, especially Gerhart.

If Cassel saw something and called an audible for the run, then I can't help but respect him for that.
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Re: "If only we had seen Cassel, Patterson and Rhodes all se

Post by PurpleKoolaid »

Mothman wrote: Exactly! Where was the Souhan column about starting Audie Coles two months ago? ;)
I disagree. I think it reflects patience and Frazier taking the long view, doing what he thinks will ultimately be best for the players and the team. He knew going into the season that his young secondary was going to experience growing pains, particularly Josh Robinson since he was being asked to spend a great deal of time playing a position he'd never played before.

A lot of people are looking at recent results and projecting them backward, assuming the same results could have been achieved earlier but as Raptorman pointed out above, that overlooks the degree to which players may have improved along the way. Souhan wrote that Patterson "gained 147 yards from scrimmage on Sunday without running a play he couldn’t have run the first week of the season". Is that true? They ran him on some screens and reverses earlier in the season and he didn't turn them into big gains. Could he have run some of the routes he's run lately as well in week 3 as he runs them now? The coaching staff didn't think so and considering the "book' on Patterson coming out of college, I don't find that hard to believe.
Its not Souhan's job to evaluate talent when someone like Erin is stinking up the place with his poor play. Its the HC's and coaching staff. Its not 'execution', its having dumb a$$ coaches.
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