Check Down Charlie

[Purple bruise]

I think the ONE thing everyone on this string can agree on is that NEITHER our QB OR our recievers are much of a threat. which begs the question: What the hell was Little Boy Leslie thinking with his game plan, Ignoring the best friggin RB in the league and being pass happy all day long?!?!?!?!

Maybe they were worried about him fumbling for the third time or what the other fans would say about running and not showing enough balls or faith to try and pass it. The play fake and pass worked to perfection for a touchdown earlier and then was dropped for another big completion. It worked pretty well so why not try it again? Man that 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing

[Delaqure]

I don't follow college ball much but do listen to ESPN. I haven't heard much praise for any Qb at that level. Regardless if Ponder is our qb or not in the future We have so many holes yet to fill. No matter who we have behind center we need a guard to protect him and a reciever for him to throw to. We are probably not going to find a better QB next year so hopefully we can fill the other big spots. If we do that will help Ponder a lot and at least give him a shot at major improvement next year.

[mansquatch]

As far a QB back up plan you have to ask where the chips are going to fall in the draft. I doubt we’ll be picking in the top 10, maybe, but not likely. So we could take another reach pick on a QB in the first round. However, that also means we are not putting top talent into our current other areas of need, ie WR and OL. This draft is very deep for Linemen, IMO, it would be better to use the early round picks to find KWill’s eventual replacement, maybe a true NT, and help at OG. (plus address the huge gap at WR) You could use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a QB, but the reality is the QB position is critical in the NFL, everyone knows it, and as such QBs end up with inflated value. Also are there any QB in the draft worthy of their pick? IMO, the Vikings are probably going to end up in a nice draft position to get top talent on the line with their pick. QBs will probably run early, and then some of the top WR or DL/OL talent might fall to them. Pick BPA and then address needs in the later 2nd/3rd round, or trade for additional picks.

So to the concept of the “backup plan” I ask where is said plan going to come from? Do the Vikes sacrifice their top pick or picks in the 2013 draft to get another blue chip or almost blue chip QB prospect or do they look elsewhere? Maybe they sign a FA backup, but then they are hurting their salary cap. (Is Jason Cambell worth what the Bears are paying him to ride the bench?) There is also the fact that they are not likely to find a blue chip QB in FA. They might fall into a disgruntled deal like the Cutler trade, but that is also rare.

I believe the Vikings, for better or for worse, are going to ride out Ponder for at least another season. If after the 2013 campaign they decide he isn’t working out, they’ll need to get as high a draft pick as possible (by hook or by crook) to roll the dice on another QB

[Crax]

So to the concept of the “backup plan” I ask where is said plan going to come from? Do the Vikes sacrifice their top pick or picks in the 2013 draft to get another blue chip or almost blue chip QB prospect or do they look elsewhere? Maybe they sign a FA backup, but then they are hurting their salary cap. (Is Jason Cambell worth what the Bears are paying him to ride the bench?) There is also the fact that they are not likely to find a blue chip QB in FA. They might fall into a disgruntled deal like the Cutler trade, but that is also rare.

I believe the Vikings, for better or for worse, are going to ride out Ponder for at least another season. If after the 2013 campaign they decide he isn’t working out, they’ll need to get as high a draft pick as possible (by hook or by crook) to roll the dice on another QB

I don't want them to use their first pick necessarily in this draft for a qb. However, IF the right guy is there in 2013(2nd,3rd) or 2014(anywhere), they should draft one no matter how ponder is playing.

Seattle had just signed Flynn to a big contract and still used a 3rd rounder on Wilson
The 49ers just switched from Smith to Kapernick because they didn't ignore the position and maybe they did get lucky with Kapernick, but they still took a 2nd round QB that appears to be panning out.

Maybe they still think they can develop Joe Webb as a QB, but no matter how Ponder plays, they should be developing someone else too. Green Bay picked Rogers late in the 1st round when they already had Farve as they were anticipating an eventual change. I don't think they should draft one guy, wait a few years and if he fails, start the process over. We'll always be "he needs 3 years to know!" and then have absolutely nothing to go to after the 3 years is up.

[Mothman]

As far a QB back up plan you have to ask where the chips are going to fall in the draft. I doubt we’ll be picking in the top 10, maybe, but not likely. So we could take another reach pick on a QB in the first round. However, that also means we are not putting top talent into our current other areas of need, ie WR and OL. This draft is very deep for Linemen, IMO, it would be better to use the early round picks to find KWill’s eventual replacement, maybe a true NT, and help at OG. (plus address the huge gap at WR) You could use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a QB, but the reality is the QB position is critical in the NFL, everyone knows it, and as such QBs end up with inflated value. Also are there any QB in the draft worthy of their pick? IMO, the Vikings are probably going to end up in a nice draft position to get top talent on the line with their pick. QBs will probably run early, and then some of the top WR or DL/OL talent might fall to them. Pick BPA and then address needs in the later 2nd/3rd round, or trade for additional picks.

So to the concept of the “backup plan” I ask where is said plan going to come from?

From the draft or free agency, most likely the former. They don't necessarily need to spend a first round pick on him (in fact, they shouldn't unless they're completely giving up on Ponder) but they could spend a lower pick (probably R3 or later). The idea would be to get a player with the skills and mentality for the position and then start developing him. That way, if Ponder doesn't succeed, they might not have to start from scratch. To put it another way, they need to go find a Brad Johnson or a Matt Hasselbeck.

I believe the Vikings, for better or for worse, are going to ride out Ponder for at least another season. If after the 2013 campaign they decide he isn’t working out, they’ll need to get as high a draft pick as possible (by hook or by crook) to roll the dice on another QB

I agree that they'll probably stick with him for another season and if he doesn't pan out, I won't be surprised if they use a first round pick on a QB again in 2014. However, I don't think they're painted into a corner to the extent it sounds like in your post. I think they can probably find a QB with a better passing history and more upside than Joe Webb or MBT and they can probably find a decent veteran backup too.

[Mothman]

I don't want them to use their first pick necessarily in this draft for a qb. However, IF the right guy is there in 2013(2nd,3rd) or 2014(anywhere), they should draft one no matter how ponder is playing.

Seattle had just signed Flynn to a big contract and still used a 3rd rounder on Wilson
The 49ers just switched from Smith to Kapernick because they didn't ignore the position and maybe they did get lucky with Kapernick, but they still took a 2nd round QB that appears to be panning out.

Maybe they still think they can develop Joe Webb as a QB, but no matter how Ponder plays, they should be developing someone else too. Green Bay picked Rogers late in the 1st round when they already had Farve as they were anticipating an eventual change. I don't think they should draft one guy, wait a few years and if he fails, start the process over. We'll always be "he needs 3 years to know!" and then have absolutely nothing to go to after the 3 years is up.

Exactly! I like the idea of continually developing players with future starting potential at the position. It just makes sense and it can keep you out of the kind of mess Childress left them in, with Webb as the sole QB even signed to the roster for 2011.

[mansquatch]

The 3yr thing is going to happen until they get a starter that can stick. I don't want them in that situation either, but the reality is they until they find a steady solution at the position there is going to be a revolving door on the "3yr plan". I want them to have a back up, but I want them to have a starter even more!

I do not think you can compare a team like GB with the Vikings situation. They had had Favre for what, 10 years when they drafted Rogers? They knew that Favre was getting old, but they also knew that had a ton of time to develop Rogers. If Rogers hadn't hit, they'd be in the 3yr revolving door just like us.

[Crax]

The 3yr thing is going to happen until they get a starter that can stick. I don't want them in that situation either, but the reality is they until they find a steady solution at the position there is going to be a revolving door on the "3yr plan". I want them to have a back up, but I want them to have a starter even more!

I do not think you can compare a team like GB with the Vikings situation. They had had Favre for what, 10 years when they drafted Rogers? They knew that Favre was getting old, but they also knew that had a ton of time to develop Rogers. If Rogers hadn't hit, they'd be in the 3yr revolving door just like us.

That's the wrong way to do it IMO then. There are other teams that draft qb's before they desperately need one.
I also mentioned Seattle and SF. Even Washington in this last draft with RG3, still took another QB in the 4th as did the eagles. The Vikings don't seem to draft a QB until they have to and even then, they haven't drafted many to try and develop. Even if they decide Ponder is their guy though 2015, they still need to get someone else in here.

Seattle signed Flynn to a big deal and didn't necessarily need a QB anymore than we did and they still took one in the third. I realize that Josh Robinson has been good for us this year so far, but still.

[mansquatch]

Seattle had TJoke last year. I would say that qualifies as "Desparately Needing a QB".

I get what you are saying, but I go back to the discussion on Franschise vs. non-Franchise QB. Until you get that Franchise guy or you have an ELITE, as in Historic, NFL Defense, you are doomed to never be more than 10-6 in the NFL. So that means you either think you can swing for the fences on late round QB and maybe hit on one (Tom Brady) or you have to invest an early pick on strong QB talent and hope it pans out.

Right now the Vikings have 2 late round guys on the roster in Joe Webb and MBT. For them to follow the late round strategy I would imagine part of it would be do they think the new late round guy has more upside than MBT? Maybe yes, maybe no. Point is, two of those guys are on the roster.

This leaves the high pick. They invested such a pick 2 years ago in Ponder and are giving him the 3yr plan. I approve of this approach. If after 3 seasons you know who Ponder is and do not think he is the answer give Joe Webb a season, go 2-14 and draft in the top 3. A 2-14 season would suck, but that would give the best opportunity at drafting a blue chip QB prospect.

The other avenue would be BPA and if a QB talent with appropriate draft value falls in your lap, then take him.

I think the 3 season thing makes sense since you also have ot build the rest of your roster. The Vikings especially, given the state of the team in 2010.

[Mothman]

The 3yr thing is going to happen until they get a starter that can stick. I don't want them in that situation either, but the reality is they until they find a steady solution at the position there is going to be a revolving door on the "3yr plan". I want them to have a back up, but I want them to have a starter even more!

I do not think you can compare a team like GB with the Vikings situation. They had had Favre for what, 10 years when they drafted Rogers? They knew that Favre was getting old, but they also knew that had a ton of time to develop Rogers. If Rogers hadn't hit, they'd be in the 3yr revolving door just like us.

Keep in mind that before they had Rodgers GB also developed QBs like Mark Brunell and Matt Hasselbeck behind Favre. It's simply a good idea to keep developing QBs who have a genuine shot to become quality starters. If the Vikings had done that during the Childress era instead of just drafting a long shot like Jackson and counting on him to be the future, they might have been in a much better position when he didn't work out as a starter.

[Crax]

Seattle had TJoke last year. I would say that qualifies as "Desparately Needing a QB".

Did you not even read what I wrote? They already gave $26 million to Flynn to replace TJack. They weren't anymore desperate than the Vikings.

Right now the Vikings have 2 late round guys on the roster in Joe Webb and MBT. For them to follow the late round strategy I would imagine part of it would be do they think the new late round guy has more upside than MBT? Maybe yes, maybe no. Point is, two of those guys are on the roster.

We didn't draft MBT and he made the cut cause he was cheap. We haven't invested anything in him and Webb was a 6th round pick that many believed was being drafted not as a QB. Those hardly count as developing prospects.

Jim just mentioned two other QB's that GB developed while having Farve. Even if you decide the guy your developing isn't better than your starter, teams have made some good deals when trading those type of players.

[Mothman]

Seattle had TJoke last year. I would say that qualifies as "Desparately Needing a QB".

I think he meant they didn't desperately need a QB when they drafted Wilson after signing Flynn.

I get what you are saying, but I go back to the discussion on Franschise vs. non-Franchise QB. Until you get that Franchise guy or you have an ELITE, as in Historic, NFL Defense, you are doomed to never be more than 10-6 in the NFL. So that means you either think you can swing for the fences on late round QB and maybe hit on one (Tom Brady) or you have to invest an early pick on strong QB talent and hope it pans out.

... or you can do both, which is what I'm suggesting (and I think Crax is suggesting the same thing). The Vikes made the early round investment in Ponder so why not invest in a mid-to-late round QB with genuine potential as well? There's no reason they have to just develop one QB at a time. When the Pats drafted Brady they already had a franchise QB. They weren't swinging for the fences in the sense that they were looking for an immediate starter. They drafted a developmental QB.

Right now the Vikings have 2 late round guys on the roster in Joe Webb and MBT. For them to follow the late round strategy I would imagine part of it would be do they think the new late round guy has more upside than MBT? Maybe yes, maybe no. Point is, two of those guys are on the roster.

It's just hard to believe either player has long term starting potential. Webb might but I don't get the impression the Vikes really believe that. He hasn't shown enough as a passer when he's played to lead me to believe he can be a good NFl starter for years to come but maybe he's progressed behind the scenes this year. MBT has bounced around enough that I have real doubts about him but hey, maybe he'll be the next Kurt Warner. If the Vikes truly have two potential "Plan B" QBs on their roster right now then they're going about things the right way.

This leaves the high pick. They invested such a pick 2 years ago in Ponder and are giving him the 3yr plan. I approve of this approach. If after 3 seasons you know who Ponder is and do not think he is the answer give Joe Webb a season, go 2-14 and draft in the top 3. A 2-14 season would suck, but that would give the best opportunity at drafting a blue chip QB prospect.

It's wasted time. I realize that was a hypothetical scenario but if they believe going with Webb would lead to that kind of season then dump him and sign someone who might lead the team to a winning season if called upon in 2014.

Jim

[Crax]

... or you can do both, which is what I'm suggesting (and I think Crax is suggesting the same thing).

Yes. Even if Flynn and Cassel haven't been super on other teams, both the Pats and the Packers already had guys ready to jump in and play if something happened to their big time star. No, the Vikings shouldn't draft a QB in the 1st every year, but drafting one in the 2nd/3rd isn't unheard of when you already have a planned starter for the season.

[mansquatch]

The point on MBT is they are developing 3 QB right now. Whether you think they are an "it" guy is a different matter. When Seattle drafted Wilson and signed Flynn they didn't know whether either of them would pan out. (One could argue they still do not know) They've been luck with Wilson so far. I agree on having more than one guy, my point is the Vikings already do have 3 guys. Now maybe they all suck, they are QBs so they probably do. You still need to balance filling that one positition vs. building the rest of your roster. That is why, IMO, the 3yr plan makes sense.

Again, if you are going to add another backup plan, then means you have given up on Webb or MBT or carry 4 on the roster. Maybe it is time to do that, maybe not. The point is the Vikings do guys coming down the pike. WE just discount them because we think they suck.

[Mothman]

The point on MBT is they are developing 3 QB right now. Whether you think they are an "it" guy is a different matter. When Seattle drafted Wilson and signed Flynn they didn't know whether either of them would pan out. (One could argue they still do not know) They've been luck with Wilson so far. I agree on having more than one guy, my point is the Vikings already do have 3 guys. Now maybe they all suck, they are QBs so they probably do. You still need to balance filling that one positition vs. building the rest of your roster. That is why, IMO, the 3yr plan makes sense.

Again, if you are going to add another backup plan, then means you have given up on Webb or MBT or carry 4 on the roster. Maybe it is time to do that, maybe not. The point is the Vikings do guys coming down the pike. WE just discount them because we think they suck.

LOL! That's pretty accurate.

I realize they have Webb and MBT on the roster but unless Webb is showing MUCH more as a passer in practice this season than he has shown in the past (and that could be the case) it's hard for me to view him as anything more than an athletic backup who makes a nice change of pace but will never be seriously considered as a starter. Vikes reporters repeatedly make comments like "the Vikes know what they have in Webb" when the subject of benching Ponder comes up and it's not intended as a favorable comment. That implies the Vikings don't view Webb as a viable starter down the road and that suggests to me that next year, it may be time to replace him with someone who is...

I think giving a highly drafted QB 3 years to develop is a good idea. I just don't think it should preclude drafting another QB during the same time span and I believe that can be done while still building the rest of the roster.

I just don't want to see them repeat the mistakes of the Childress era at QB.