Musgrave could be moving closer to termination in Minnesota

[Mothman]

Musgrave = fall guy for the failure of both Spielman and Frazier when they picked Ponder.

They're pulling a Matt Millen... Hopefully the pain in Minnesota doesn't last as long as the pain did in Detroit under Millen.

We're not even close to Millen territory yet. Spielman and Frazier have made some good moves and the team has already improved their record over last season. Hopefully, they will more than double last year's win total. We all knew this was a rebuilding project that would take time and it's success or failure won't be measured solely by one draft pick. Let's not forget why Ponder is in Minnesota: Childress left the Vikes without a signed QB other than Joe Webb. They had little choice but to draft one or sign yet another stopgap. They went with the player their evaluations told them was the best they could get when their 12th pick came up. Newton, Locker and Gabbert were off the board so it was Ponder, Dalton or Kaepernick. Maybe they should have waited until the second round or perhaps they should have traded up but IF Ponder ends up being a failure, that's primarily on Ponder, not Spielman or Frazier. Trading up for Newton wasn't a realistic option and who knows how many of those other guys will end up being significantly better than Ponder? Dalton's been better so far but he's having a tough time this season too.

The draft is a crapshoot and we all know there's a fairly high percentage bust rate for QBs. You can't get a good one if you don't take a shot and when you're left with little choice but to take a shot, you take it. If they missed this time, they'll take another one.

[dead_poet]

I've yet to understand why defenses do not fall for our PA. Seriously. Opposing LBers don't bite at all even after Peterson rips off a 40 yard run.

From where I sit it's two reasons: 1) Ponder doesn't do a great job of selling it (often they seem to be quick, half-hearted attempts) and 2) Most of the time the LBs are already blitzing (or someone on the offensive line misses an assignment). Ponder doesn't have enough time to set and seems to get sacked more often than not. You need a couple seconds of a clean pocket for it to work well and that's been hard to come by as of late. It's certainly frustrating.

[Demi]

IF Ponder ends up being a failure, that's primarily on Ponder, not Spielman or Frazier.

Definitely not on Frazier. I doubt he had all that much input into it. But Spielman? He reached horribly for a guy with some pretty big question marks. He didn't draft Andrew Luck, or Cam Newton, and watched them struggle. He tried to force the position, made a highly questionable decision, and it's going to cost him his job.

Good riddance. Ponder failing is more on Spielman than Ponder. Ponder is what he was. Spielman saw what he wanted to see.

[S197]

I'm not a fan of Musgrave but I agree that he's starting to look like the scapegoat. Bevell was trashed for his lack of imagination and execution but look what he did this past weekend. Same thing with Pagac. At some point the bullseye needs to shift from the coordinators and move a little higher up the totem pole.

[Rus]

They've been talking this story up on Daily Norseman, too.

I can completely buy that Musgrave is part of the problem. The offense wasn't exactly high-flying before the current losing streak...the team was kept aloft by defense. That has suddenly looked extremely weak in the middle of the field, and running backs with no business racking up AD-like yards are doing so.

But anyone could see that opposing defenses were setting up blitzes to force Ponder into making bad throws over a month ago. The team had been winning in SPITE of the offense, and Musgrave hasn't seemed to make any real adjustments. They certainly don't seem to be able to make use of Jerome Simpson, they were supposed to be killing opposing defenses with their two pass-catching tight end sets. The offense seriously is Percy Harvin and Adrian Peterson. That's very, very easy to gameplan for when you know that it's going to be one or the other, regardless of how talented they are. So far, Musgrave's apparent inability to make adjustments is downright Childress-like, not unlike the output of this offense.

Doesn't matter what quarterback you're putting out there...if your offense is locked down to two players, you are screwed. And if your only hope is to make your quarterback scramble and add that extra dimension, that's pretty much throwing in the towel. As soon as he gets hurt, you're screwed. Quarterbacks don't scramble from a location that is advantageous to gaining a lot of yardage+have room to fall down. You have to hope that opposing defenses don't say "Oh, snap, they put in Webb, guess what they're going to do?"

[PurpleMustReign]

How can you people be calling Musgrave a scapegoat? He is one of the worst OCs ever, IMO, he reminds me of that idiot that we had in 1999 after Billick went to Baltimore (I can't think of his name right now). He has no creativity, he runs on every first down, and I don't even think I have seen a screen play to someone other than Harvin this season.
Is he the full problem? Hell no. Is he part of the problem? Absolutely. He is worthless, IMO, and should have been fired last offseason.

[Mothman]

How can you people be calling Musgrave a scapegoat? He is one of the worst OCs ever, IMO, he reminds me of that idiot that we had in 1999 after Billick went to Baltimore (I can't think of his name right now). He has no creativity, he runs on every first down, and I don't even think I have seen a screen play to someone other than Harvin this season.

They've run a few to Peterson and I think at least one to Gerhart. Musgrave has been resourceful at times but all too often, the playcalling is predictable and unimaginative.

[Demi]

How can you people be calling Musgrave a scapegoat? He is one of the worst OCs ever, IMO, he reminds me of that idiot that we had in 1999 after Billick went to Baltimore (I can't think of his name right now). He has no creativity, he runs on every first down, and I don't even think I have seen a screen play to someone other than Harvin this season.
Is he the full problem? Hell no. Is he part of the problem? Absolutely. He is worthless, IMO, and should have been fired last offseason.

Because he isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is ownership not bringing in a football guy to run things. Followed by one of, if not the, worst quarterback in the league. And then the GM. Musgrave should never have been hired. And there's no way they fired him after last year. They were busy talking about a full offseason, a year working with the QB. Blah Blah Blah. Now the offense is struggling, and he isn't even the biggest part of it. The quarterback is. There's no reason to fire him week 10. We're not going anywhere. We don't have some brilliant offensive mind on the coaching staff to take over. If he's fired it's because Spielman needs someone to blame for his massive blunder with the most important position in the game.

[losperros]

Definitely not on Frazier. I doubt he had all that much input into it. But Spielman? He reached horribly for a guy with some pretty big question marks. He didn't draft Andrew Luck, or Cam Newton, and watched them struggle. He tried to force the position, made a highly questionable decision, and it's going to cost him his job.

Good riddance. Ponder failing is more on Spielman than Ponder. Ponder is what he was. Spielman saw what he wanted to see.

What did Spielman see? He saw in Ponder the MVP of the Senior Bowl and a good QB for the Seminoles who showed poise, leadership, smarts, and the ability to throw all the passes, aside from when he was hurt. No way was Carolina going to trade out of taking Cam at #1 and Tennessee wasn't interested in trade talk when they took Locker. So maybe Ponder was a stretch at #12 but at the time not a huge stretch.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, Demi, but quite honestly I seriously doubt that Spielman was all alone in wanting Ponder. I think ownership played a part. If Ponder can't cut it, I also doubt that Zygi will remove Spielman, who brought the team two fairly good drafts the last couple years.

[indianation65]

Every time you watch a game, and a replay shows this man is covered, that man is covered, qb scramble, qb throw it away or qb get sacked, it's often times the same man-on-man coverage of passes that "are" completed, "by other quarterbacks." The difference is Ponder not stepping up in the pocket and throwing the ball with some real zip and very little arch. Watch other qbs who also throw some interceptions or bad balls, but who are also completing more down field passes. There is often times a defender or two within 1-2 yards, or even arm's length away from the receiver, yet passes are completed. Every pro qb can/should be able to thread the needle, and so can Ponder. For some reason right now, he won't! Zip the ball more Ponder, it can be done! Are you purposely trying to become a backup journeyman qb? That's what it looks like.

Addendum: On 50 % of this stagnate offense the O line is doing Ponder no favors as well. That's where a dump pass is acceptable, after quick reads actually result in blindness.

Addendum II: Oh wait, this topic is about Musgrave; yea, he's not helping.

...wisdom

[J. Kapp 11]

Doesn't it make sense, though, for an offensive coaching staff to have a great deal to do with the development of a quarterback?

To my mind, there is no way you can look at Christian Ponder's lack of development 10 games into his second season and NOT assign some of the blame to the coaching staff. Ponder is reportedly a smart guy. He's obviously athletic. He has a good arm and throws a nice ball. His problems, in spite of what many might say (including Ponder himself), are between the ears -- whether that is a lack of confidence, a lack of understanding, or both. Deficiencies in those between-the-ears areas start with the coaching staff. No matter how talented a guy is, he doesn't come into the NFL completely ready to play. Every quarterback needs good coaching to succeed.

And when defenses do the same thing to you over and over and over, and you can't adjust, who is to blame? It has to start with the coaching staff.

I keep hearing how innovative Musgrave is. Why? Because he threw bubble screens to Percy Harvin? Not exactly revolutionary. As someone mentioned earlier, Musgrave ran lackluster offenses in Atlanta, too.

Obviously this article is pure speculation. But I, for one, would not shed a lot of tears if it ended up being true.

[Mothman]

Doesn't it make sense, though, for an offensive coaching staff to have a great deal to do with the development of a quarterback?

To my mind, there is no way you can look at Christian Ponder's lack of development 10 games into his second season and NOT assign some of the blame to the coaching staff. Ponder is reportedly a smart guy. He's obviously athletic. He has a good arm and throws a nice ball. His problems, in spite of what many might say (including Ponder himself), are between the ears -- whether that is a lack of confidence, a lack of understanding, or both. Deficiencies in those between-the-ears areas start with the coaching staff. No matter how talented a guy is, he doesn't come into the NFL completely ready to play. Every quarterback needs good coaching to succeed.

I think he must be getting it to at least some extent, or we probably wouldn't have seen the progress he showed earlier in the year. Personally, I feel he's regressed for both physical and mental reasons. On many plays, he's not setting his feet properly or following through on some of his throws and it's led to accuracy problems. That's physical. On the other hand, he sometimes overreacts to pressure, rushes a throw or is too reluctant to throw and those are all mental issues. However, just because those issues have been going on for several games, I don't necessarily think they're an indication that he's not getting the coaching. It could simply mean that he's not responding enough to what they're teaching him or perhaps he's a little overwhelmed by it and is thinking too much instead about what he's doing instead of just doing it.

Your comment that deficiencies in between-the-ears areas start with the coaching staff seems counter-intuitive to me so maybe I'm misinterpreting it. It seems to me that problems in the player's mind start must start with the player. After all, it's his head, they're his issues and ultimately, he's the one who has to overcome them. All the coaches can really do is point the way...

keep hearing how innovative Musgrave is. Why? Because he threw bubble screens to Percy Harvin? Not exactly revolutionary. As someone mentioned earlier, Musgrave ran lackluster offenses in Atlanta, too.

He didn't run offenses in Atlanta. He was the QB coach.

[J. Kapp 11]

Your comment that deficiencies in between-the-ears areas start with the coaching staff seems counter-intuitive to me so maybe I'm misinterpreting it. It seems to me that problems in the player's mind start must start with the player. After all, it's his head, they're his issues and ultimately, he's the one who has to overcome them. All the coaches can really do is point the way...

Counter-intuitive? It makes perfect sense.

I see a guy in Christian Ponder who simply doesn't know what to do when he sees a blitz coming. I'm not even sure whether he's recognizing the blitz pre-snap, which seems incredible to me because Tampa players said they blitzed virtually every play (and because, well, even I can recognize it, and everyone knows I'm a freaking moron!).

Maybe, just maybe, that's a lack of coaching. Wouldn't you agree?

It's also quite possibly a lack of scheme. If a couple of guys are blitzing, and they're doubling Percy, and they're taking away Rudolph, shouldn't an open hot route be available SOMEWHERE? Yet we never seem to find it. You never hear an announcer say, "Ponder and the Vikings made them pay for that blitz." It never happens, which is why opponents do it play after play after play. I have to wonder whether the coaching staff is doing its job.

You have been a staunch defender of Christian Ponder (as have I, until recently). You're also defending the coaching. To me, defending both in the face of such horrible play seems counter-intuititve.

[losperros]

I see a guy in Christian Ponder who simply doesn't know what to do when he sees a blitz coming. I'm not even sure whether he's recognizing the blitz pre-snap, which seems incredible to me because Tampa players said they blitzed virtually every play (and because, well, even I can recognize it, and everyone knows I'm a freaking moron!).

Maybe, just maybe, that's a lack of coaching. Wouldn't you agree?

It's also quite possibly a lack of scheme. If a couple of guys are blitzing, and they're doubling Percy, and they're taking away Rudolph, shouldn't an open hot route be available SOMEWHERE? Yet we never seem to find it. You never hear an announcer say, "Ponder and the Vikings made them pay for that blitz." It never happens, which is why opponents do it play after play after play. I have to wonder whether the coaching staff is doing its job.

You have been a staunch defender of Christian Ponder (as have I, until recently). You're also defending the coaching. To me, defending both in the face of such horrible play seems counter-intuititve.

I've also been a staunch defender of Ponder until very recently. Then again, I'm familiar with him from his days as a Seminole QB and I just can't understand why his strengths in college ball have become his weaknesses in pro ball.

Okay, so maybe coaching has to play at least some part of it. I can agree with that. But I'm wondering which coaches are to blame? Is it Musgrave? Is it QB coach Craig Johnson? Is it Coach Frazier? Is it all the above?

Where does the line get drawn regarding accountability? How much falls on Ponder's own shoulders? Not that he would deliberately play poorly, of course. But how much of what he's doing is actually because the guy simply isn't grasping the pro game?

[J. Kapp 11]

I've also been a staunch defender of Ponder until very recently. Then again, I'm familiar with him from his days as a Seminole QB and I just can't understand why his strengths in college ball have become his weaknesses in pro ball.

Okay, so maybe coaching has to play at least some part of it. I can agree with that. But I'm wondering which coaches are to blame? Is it Musgrave? Is it QB coach Craig Johnson? Is it Coach Frazier? Is it all the above?

Where does the line get drawn regarding accountability? How much falls on Ponder's own shoulders? Not that he would deliberately play poorly, of course. But how much of what he's doing is actually because the guy simply isn't grasping the pro game?

These are all great questions. It's really hard to say. That's why I've been reluctant to use Musgrave's name, instead using the words "coaching staff."

I keep coming back to the lack of hot routes and other adjustments at the line when the blitz is obviously coming. If neither the quarterback nor the receivers are making the sight adjustment, it seems like coaching to me.

Of course, your questions are very valid as to which coaches bear the responsibility. Ultimately, if this keeps up, somebody will have to go. If not mid-season, then certainly during the offseason. Then it becomes a matter of who Spielman thinks is to blame.