Christian Ponder being held back

[PurpleJarl]

My favorite part is all of the people Complaining when people were making early career comparisons to Brady, manning, manning, brees and whoever else are now saying


Well Brady, manning, etc get it done without a big receiver shouldn't Ponder?

[Mothman]

Simpson is actually better then Lloyd.

He sure hasn't proven it and unlike Lloyd, he doesn't have a 1400+ yard receiving season to back that notion up.

Again, what the Pats are doing has nothing to do with the Vikes.

He threw at least 3 or 4 catchable passes to him last night.

[PurpleJarl]

Exactly. How do you feel about the TD pass to Harvin?

Or how about the Late Aroma Pass (I think it was Aroma) that he put right over the hands of the siting defender?

He is show great touch on throws and FAR more consistence on them then TJ ever did

[FailedtoOpen]

Not everyone can have a big, talented receiver on the outside. There's not that many of them.
Once you get past Megatron, Marshall, VJax, and maybe AJ Green there's a drop off on both tall and talented. Roddy White, Reggie Wayne, and Victor Cruz are all listed at 6'0" even and are all in the top 10 for yards. There's quite a few around 6'3", but that seems more average these days and I wouldn't call them big as there's so many of them around that height.

The patriots have 0 big, talented receivers on the outside and seem to be doing pretty good in the passing game. The Bronco's seem to be great as well in the passing game and they don't have those type of superstar receivers either. If you want to argue they do with Demaryius Thomas, I don't think he really fits into the same mold as what you were suggesting. Of course Thomas has put up about the same amount of yards in 5 less games this year compared to last year. Manning vs Tebow might have something to do with it.

It isn't about having a big talented receiver it's about having a receiver who can get separation and make a play on the ball. White gets open and will go up for the ball, Cruz has this uncanny to either be wide open, or make some circus like catches. But that itself isn't enough to have success. One could argue that Simpson can be the same way, problem is Ponder and Simpson don't have that connection like a Ryan/White have or a Manning/Cruz.

As for the Patriots the first year that they got rid of Moss they were a very short passing game team. That was just the nature of their offense, even to this day they're still a pretty short passing team.

[Crax]

Brandon Lloyd (tied for 2nd on the team in receptions with 35 for 415 yards, averages 11.6 ypr) but what does that have to do with the Vikings?
....
The Vikings have Harvin in the slot, Rudolph (who is no Gronkowski) at TE and nobody comparable to Lloyd on the outside.

Nobody comparable to LLoyd? Swapping Simpson for Brandon Lloyd would do absolutely nothing for this team.

Loyd belongs nowhere near the guys you were talking about earlier. He doesn't command a double team. YOU said draw double teams on the outside which I even bolded when quoting, Lloyd isn't that guy. Also his ypr you mentioned is the lowest it's ever been outside of one year with washington when he didn't really play. His long is under 30 yards as well. He's not the outside threat you're claiming.

What does it have to do with the Vikings? It shows you don't HAVE to have VJax or Johnson or even the 6'3" guys(Lloyd is 6' even, btw). You somewhat said the pats don't need to, but then said the Vikings have to. The pats get a ton of production by throwing it to welker and to their RB's. Why can't the vikings do that? Our slot is just as good as theirs. I'll give them the nod on the TE but us the nod on the running game. The biggest difference is obviously the QB.

one of the best QBs of all time throwing to all of them, a standard we can hardly expect Ponder to reach right now, if ever.

Are we agreeing it's the QB and not Brandon Lloyd's greatness as an outside threat?

Here's my main point:
Farve wasn't even considered top 5 when we picked him up from the jets and suddenly our offense changed. Sidney Rice was a nobody when he had T-Jack throwing to him. Everyone want's to bash our receivers like they are what is holding Ponder back. We may never have a Tom Brady, but I'd wager there is quite a few QB's right now that would make our WR's seem better than what Ponder is doing.

I think a good/great QB would have no problems operating with our current set of WR/TE's. It's just an easy excuse to use with Ponder. Would it be awesome to have andre or calvin johnson on this team? Sure. I don't think you have to have a top 5 wr to put up good numbers though.

That was just the nature of their offense, even to this day they're still a pretty short passing team.

So are we. They're number 1 overall and number 5 for passing. We're somewhere in the 20's for passing now. Biggest difference? The QB.

[Mothman]

Loyd belongs nowhere near the guys you were talking about earlier. He doesn't command a double team. YOU said draw double teams on the outside which I even bolded when quoting, Lloyd isn't that guy. Also his ypr you mentioned is the lowest it's ever been outside of one year with washington when he didn't really play. His long is under 30 yards as well. He's not the outside threat you're claiming.

He plays on the outside and he's second on the team in receptions, isn't he? I didn't say he was a deep threat, I said he was an outside threat. I overlooked your highlighting of double teams so I apologize for that but frankly, Lloyd and the Patriots have nothing to do with the Vikings problems anyway.

What does it have to do with the Vikings? It shows you don't HAVE to have VJax or Johnson or even the 6'3" guys(Lloyd is 6' even, btw).

I literally wrote (in response to you) that "I'm not saying every team needs to have a big outside threat at WR to be successful" so I've already conceded the point you made above. I also said a receiver doesn't have to be that big as long as he has the ability to make plays and draw double coverage. The point is the Vikings lack sufficient playmaking ability on the outside.

Here's my main point:
Farve wasn't even considered top 5 when we picked him up from the jets and suddenly our offense changed. Sidney Rice was a nobody when he had T-Jack throwing to him. Everyone want's to bash our receivers like they are what is holding Ponder back. We may never have a Tom Brady, but I'd wager there is quite a few QB's right now that would make our WR's seem better than what Ponder is doing.

Of course there are but they aren't exactly available. The Vikings can't go out and get Tom Brady. If all this talk about the Patriots is your way of trying to get me to say Ponder's part of the problem then you certainly took the long way to the point. Of course Ponder is part of the problem. So are the receivers. So is the OL. I was talking, from a team-building perspective, about what the Vikings need to get better. Improvement in any area would do that. However, the Vikings have committed to developing Ponder while Simpson is under a one year contract and the rest of the WRs (after Harvin) are journeymen and nobodies. It's a position that is clearly going to undergo some turnover in the near future.

I think a good/great QB would have no problems operating with our current set of WR/TE's. It's just an easy excuse to use with Ponder. Would it be awesome to have andre or calvin johnson on this team? Sure. I don't think you have to have a top 5 wr to put up good numbers though.

So are we. They're number 1 overall and number 5 for passing. We're somewhere in the 20's for passing now. Biggest difference? The QB.

So this all boils down to: Tom Brady is better than Christian Ponder. That's a fascinating insight.

Look, I have no doubt someone like Brady would do better with the Vikings offensive roster than Ponder has but I don't think he'd suddenly transform the remainder of the roster into the top offense in football. The protection problems would still be an issue and he'd still need receivers to actually get open, which the Vikings receivers often struggle to do. That's not bashing them to excuse Ponder. It's the truth. Broadcasters talk about the problem during games. They did it again last night and it's pretty easy to see.

[Raptorman]

While not trying to defend Ponders performance over the last few games I think a few numbers are in order to put things into perspective. While Ponder may or may not be the future QB of the Vikings, that is not up to me. But is he really doing any worse than other QB’s drafted the last few years? The following chart is for informational purposes only. I do not intend it be a defense of Ponder. But if Ponder is doing so bad, which of the following QB’s would you prefer? These are QB’s that were drafted in 2010 and 2011 who are actually starting for their teams. As you can see the list is short.

Code: Select all

Name       W   L Total   W%    Cmp  Att   Cmp%   Yds  TD TD%  Int Int%    Y/C   Y/G   Rate
Bradford	11  22 33	0.333	676 1166	58.0  7268  31 2.7%  27 2.3%   10.8  220.2  75.6
Dalton	  11  11 22	0.500	456  759	60.1  5229  33 4.3%  23 3.0%   11.5  227.3  82.7
Newton	   7  15 22	0.318	411  690	59.6  5438  26 3.8%  23 3.3%   13.2  247.2  83.2
Gabbert     5  15 20	0.250	298  571	52.2  3120  18 3.2%  14 2.5%   10.5  148.6  68.6
Ponder	   7  11 18	0.389	329  553	59.5  3596  23 4.2%  20 3.6%   10.9  189.3  77.6

Does Ponder have room for improvement, of course. But is he as bad as we all think he is or is he just about equal to the other QB's drafted around him? The numbers tell one story. But not the whole story. He is a second year QB that it struggling. As they all seem to be.

[Crax]

He plays on the outside and he's second on the team in receptions, isn't he? I didn't say he was a deep threat, I said he was an outside threat. I overlooked your highlighting of double teams so I apologize for that but frankly, Lloyd and the Patriots have nothing to do with the Vikings problems anyway.

Your idea for what qualifies as an outside threat is different than mine. Simpson is as much of a threat as Lloyd is.

So this all boils down to: Tom Brady is better than Christian Ponder. That's a fascinating insight.

Almost as fascinating as finding out the Vikings are one Brandon Lloyd away from having an outside threat.

Look, I have no doubt someone like Brady would do better with the Vikings offensive roster than Ponder has but I don't think he'd suddenly transform the remainder of the roster into the top offense in football.

It's not just Tom Brady. Depending on the stats you want to go by, it's half the QB's in the nfl. Ponder is mediocre. He'd still be mediocre with Brandon Lloyd and Gronk on this team. I don't need a Tom Brady, but asking for a top 10 QB isn't too much to want.

The Vikings have possibly the #1 slot receiver AND arguably the #1 running back in the game. They also have a good TE. How many weapons does one offense need? If you're arguing that Ponder just needs an awesome #1 reciever too, we'll that's frankly kind of crazy. We have a lot of talented playmakers already. As much as most teams.

[indianation65]

Is Ponder being held back? Yes, mostly by himself and a dwindling line. Step forward and throw the thing down field. Besides, who can't throw a ball 40 yards and hit someone on the run? For those members who say, "We have no WRs." Come on, these guys are pros, even a third stringer can run 4.9, turn and "catch." They've been doing it since they were eight-years-old! We all have!

Addendum: There is nothing more frustrating to see your "good" team make you start to believe they are "not."

...wisdom through throwing bricks at tvs

[Mothman]

Your idea for what qualifies as an outside threat is different than mine. Simpson is as much of a threat as Lloyd is.

Fine. As I said, this has nothing to do with Brandon Lloyd. He's basically a straw man in this discussion. The point is that Ponder and the Vikings offense would benefit greatly from the addition of any target that could draw double teams and take pressure off of Harvin and Ponder. Right now, it's too easy to just focus on stopping Harvin and Peterson. The Vikes have to be able to make teams pay for that.

Almost as fascinating as finding out the Vikings are one Brandon Lloyd away from having an outside threat.

Which is NOT what I said...

[FailedtoOpen]

That was just the nature of their offense, even to this day they're still a pretty short passing team.

So are we. They're number 1 overall and number 5 for passing. We're somewhere in the 20's for passing now. Biggest difference? The QB.[/quote]

The QB and Coach are what make that offense so potent. However there are similarities with their actual players. Welker/Harvin are similar in their ability. Gronk/Rudolph are similar in size, maybe not speed. Both have strong hands as well. Carlson/Hernandez could be similar if we say Carlson player.

After that it's irrelevant as we don't have receivers.

[Crax]

After that it's irrelevant as we don't have receivers.

Brandon Lloyd and Deion Branch aren't better than what the vikings have. We can move on past the pats anyways though as it was just an example of a team successfully operating without a deep threat.

Which is NOT what I said...

No. You just said we needed a deep threat and then claimed Brandon Lloyd was one. I'm more than happy to drop this line of discussion and snarky comments along with them if you are.

The point is that Ponder and the Vikings offense would benefit greatly from the addition of any target that could draw double teams and take pressure off of Harvin and Ponder. Right now, it's too easy to just focus on stopping Harvin and Peterson. The Vikes have to be able to make teams pay for that.

So, the Vikings need not just 2, but 3 guys to demand serious attention from the defense? We have a top 3 slot receiver AND RB. We also have a good TE. How many weapons does one offense need? What team has 3 guys on one team that demands that type of attention? I can't think of more than a couple. I'd love to see the 1998 vikings again, but we're asking for a lot if we're trying to get top talent everywhere on the offense.

I'm not calling for Joe Webb, and I'm fine with Ponder finishing out the year, but I really think the QB position is just as much of a need for the vikings as the WR one. It seems likely that we'll draft a WR in the 1st this year. Hopefully he can be that outside guy. I still think we'll need a different QB as well, but I guess we'll see.

[mansquatch]

So, the Vikings need not just 2, but 3 guys to demand serious attention from the defense? We have a top 3 slot receiver AND RB. We also have a good TE. How many weapons does one offense need? What team has 3 guys on one team that demands that type of attention? I can't think of more than a couple. I'd love to see the 1998 vikings again, but we're asking for a lot if we're trying to get top talent everywhere on the offense.

I'm not calling for Joe Webb, and I'm fine with Ponder finishing out the year, but I really think the QB position is just as much of a need for the vikings as the WR one. It seems likely that we'll draft a WR in the 1st this year. Hopefully he can be that outside guy. I still think we'll need a different QB as well, but I guess we'll see.

This is an excellent point. The issue I have is if it is just Ponder. I do not think it is. Ponder certainly needs to get better, there is no denying that, but there has to be some reason why he cannot find one of these guys on a more regular basis. Is it bad play design? Poor play calling? Bad Route Running? Ponder's vision is trash? I just don't understand what is missing.

[VikingLord]

Ponder and Musgrave are being held back by the tools that they have. That isn't excusing them for making, or calling bad plays. It isn't excusing them from not recognizing simple patterns of play. It is stating that you can't throw deep when you have nobody with separation. We don't have an AJ Green in which Ponder has an amazing relationship with. We don't have that Sidney Rice, who wasn't the fastest man in the world but Favre had an amazing connection with him.

But the Vikings do have arguably the #1 back in the game in AD, a stated philosophy of run-first, and most defenses they play bring up extra help to defend against it.

But the Vikings do have arguably the #1 all-around threat in Percy Harvin, a guy who, despite being the main focus of most defenses outside of AD, still manages to rack up impressive yardage as both a runner and a receiver.

But the Vikings do have an arguable mismatch-creator at TE in Rudolph, a guy who catches balls that, as long as they are placed near him, many other WR's, not to mention TE's, wouldn't.

Look, I get that the offensive line has allowed a lot of pressure in the passing game. I get that the Vikings don't have a 7' tall, 4.3 speed guy at WR who will always be open. But what part of those flaws explain Ponder's almost constantly fleeing the pocket at the first sign of trouble? What explains his failure to get to open space once he does, reset his feet, and get off a solid throw instead of trying to throw on the run? What explains his failure to set his feet so the ball doesn't float? His failure to demonstrate a functional inner clock so he's not holding it forever? His failure to watch the play clock pre-snap? His failure to watch the center before the ball is snapped?

If this is a confidence problem, I don't know how Musgrave could make it any easier for him. Short, quick throws to the flat are about as easy as it gets at this level. If he can't hit those now I don't know what else they can try to get his mojo back.

If this is a lack of talent at OL or WR, shouldn't the #12 pick in a draft be able to counter that a bit? It seems like Ponder's defenders are pointing to what he doesn't have around him. What about what he can do to counter it? What does Ponder bring to the table that makes things better? He's made some nice throws, but so did TJack. He's winning as a starter, but wasn't TJack like 8-2 as a starter at one point? Weren't many of these same things said in regards to TJack as he "developed", and didn't TJack keep displaying the same maddening traits game after game after game until it finally become obvious he wasn't the answer?

Ponder does deserve his chance to turn things around. As I said in another thread, I don't see him doing it because he is limited both physically and mentally in terms of how he can play the position. He may have enough arm strength and he may be book smart, but he doesn't see the field and he doesn't manage his emotions on it, and those traits make simple things hard. Defenses have studied what his tendencies are and they are taking away what he likes to do. Ponder is going to have to learn how to step up in the pocket and fire it confidently, but in order to do that he has to first see his receivers and he doesn't. There are open guys there, but he's not seeing them. If that fails, when he rolls out he then has to find space to reset and then fire it. Throwing on the run is not a recipe for success.

Ponder has to show he can break his habits now and adjust and get back on the offensive for him to have any prayer of succeeding at this level.

[Raptorman]

This is an excellent point. The issue I have is if it is just Ponder. I do not think it is. Ponder certainly needs to get better, there is no denying that, but there has to be some reason why he cannot find one of these guys on a more regular basis. Is it bad play design? Poor play calling? Bad Route Running? Ponder's vision is trash? I just don't understand what is missing.

I say it is a combination of the above. Face it, he is a second year QB that is not playing well. Few second year QB's do. Very few. I am not ready to throw him under the bus as of yet. But if he does not start getting better many fans will. There are no quick answers to the QB problem for any team. Even good QB's don't always start well the first few years in the league. I think all to often people want the quick fix. Well there isn't one. And if there is, I want someone here to tell me who they would rather have at QB other than Ponder who is/was available to the Vikings the last two years. Someone who would the be long term answer, not the fill in the QB spot until we can draft a better one. You have to lose to draft in the top 5 for the most part. So you don't want Ponder, what are/were the better options out there available to them?