In a way, Ponder's piss poor performance was a good sign

[LA Viking]

I think we are doing better than most people (even optimistic die hards like me) expected, and that is a good sign. Our O-Line is playing markedly better than last yr, but still is probably nothing better than average. AD is back, so that is great. Harvin is the beast he always has been, but we still don't have any other WR (except possibly Simpson, who has barely played). Ponder is in his 2nd year, and has improved since last year, but these last few weeks, we've seen him do the same mistakes that he was doing last year that got him/us into trouble. He is still often locking in on his primary and either forcing a throw if he's not open or just taking off and running. He's young, so we can't expect the world of him, but this NEEDS to improve. The biggest thing that has stood out to me though is the improvement of our secondary (Harrison Smith is a big reason for this, along with Cook and Robinson). I've also been mildly impressed with our LBs play.

Bottom line: Ponder needs to improve his vision of the field, and learn to just throw it away if need be. Throw in a WR and we have a solid team.

[Mothman]

Do the Vikings have a stable of WR's? No. Do the Vikings have that established, solid offensive line yet? No. But while those are not strengths per se, they are not blatant weaknesses, either.

I apologize for just selecting one line out of your post but we've discussed most of the rest before anyway. I just have to say, I think NFL scouts would probably disagree with that statement about the Vikings WRs. Going into the offseason, there was almost universal acknowledgement among fans and analysts that the Vikings needed help at WR. What has changed? Other than Simpson, who's had one good NFL season and has barely played this year, the Vikings are playing with the same receivers they had last season. Harvin's an excellent slot receiver and he can play outside but that's not really the strength of his game. On the outside, the Vikings basically have journeymen and backup-level players. I'd say WR clearly remains a weakness for this Vikings team or to put it another way, if it was a weakness last year, it's still a weakness now.

Jim

[vikeinmontana]

I apologize for just selecting one line out of your post but we've discussed most of the rest before anyway. I just have to say, I think NFL scouts would probably disagree with that statement about the Vikings WRs. Going into the offseason, there was almost universal acknowledgement among fans and analysts that the Vikings needed help at WR. What has changed? Other than Simpson, who's had one good NFL season and has barely played this year, the Vikings are playing with the same receivers they had last season. Harvin's an excellent slot receiver and he can play outside but that's not really the strength of his game. On the outside, the Vikings basically have journeymen and backup-level players. I'd say WR clearly remains a weakness for this Vikings team or to put it another way, if it was a weakness last year, it's still a weakness now.

Jim

good post. it is one of the most frustrating parts of being a part of a board like this. before the season everyone was bashing our front office because they were terrible at getting talent. everyone agreed our wr's were pretty average outside of percy. even those of us excited about simpson were accused of drinking the koolaid because he has never done anything! and nearly everyone picked the team to have a terrible season! i was one of the optimistic ones predicting 8-10 wins and i got some serious grief for that....

now here we are. 5-2. near the top of the division. team exceeding expectations nearly across the board. hell....we actually have playoff hopes. and still....people find stuff to bash!

i think if you predicted any less than 6 wins this year you have to just sit back and enjoy the ride!

[Crax]

now here we are. 5-2. near the top of the division. team exceeding expectations nearly across the board. hell....we actually have playoff hopes. and still....people find stuff to bash!

Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? I predicted 6 wins. I believe we'll beat that now. That's great. However, I don't believe we are going to win a SB this year(shocking, I know). What's wrong with focusing on the areas that people think need improvement?

Lots of great coaches when winning games would bring up what they did bad at the press conferences as they believed there is always stuff to improve on. I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I'd hate to see a coach/player act like everything's perfect just because they were winning some regular season games.

[vikeinmontana]

Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? I predicted 6 wins. I believe we'll beat that now. That's great. However, I don't believe we are going to win a SB this year(shocking, I know). What's wrong with focusing on the areas that people think need improvement?

Lots of great coaches when winning games would bring up what they did bad at the press conferences as they believed there is always stuff to improve on. I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I'd hate to see a coach/player act like everything's perfect just because they were winning some regular season games.

true. but not quite an accurate analogy. had the coach bashed the team all summer and said what a miserable season it was going to be then you'd have a point. however, if the coach did do that, and suddenly they were shocking everyone by winning games i doubt he'd be so vocal about what it is his team was doing wrong.

people are free to bash on whatever they want. for the most part i stay out of those threads. i just find it ironic that so many just KNEW what a terrible team this was going to be...and here were are at 5-2. seems that this team would be exceeding most of your expectations and if not i would imagine you would have predicted many more wins. i could understand if this game was picked as a SB favorite or something. but they weren't. they were picked dead last in the division and near the bottom of the entire league.

but trust me my goal was not to call people out. people are free to do and say what they want. just something i find funny is all....

[indianation65]

It only takes "1" day to hear how poorly you play to make a difference. Ponder will have heard it, thought about it, got angry about it, been embarrassed about it, accepted it, known it, practiced at it, sworn to change it, and now he will refocus it. By Thursday it will have been "4"...I bet we see a different Ponder come game day. After all, he is a professional! Vikes by 10!

...wisdom

[VikingLord]

Sorry but this is a ridiculous statement, dropped ints are not ints, period. If you want to count balls that defenders drop then it really wouldn't change anything comparatively. Sure ponder would have more ints, but so would every other qb in the league. Hell I'd say our secondary alone has dropped more ints than opposing defenses have against us in those same games.

My statement is no more ridiculous than anyone saying Ponder is accurate.

The *vast* majority of his throws are within 5 yards of the LOS, and in despite that he's still throwing balls that should have been picked (but weren't) and lately, balls that should be picked and are.

[Mothman]

My statement is no more ridiculous than anyone saying Ponder is accurate.

The *vast* majority of his throws are within 5 yards of the LOS, and in despite that he's still throwing balls that should have been picked (but weren't) and lately, balls that should be picked and are.

Although if I recall correctly, most of those INTs weren't on throws within 5yards of the line of scrimmage, so that statement is a bit misleading.

[FailedtoOpen]

My statement is no more ridiculous than anyone saying Ponder is accurate.

The *vast* majority of his throws are within 5 yards of the LOS, and in despite that he's still throwing balls that should have been picked (but weren't) and lately, balls that should be picked and are.

Very few people were arguing this though. When a fan, or media head, mentioned how Ponder hadn't thrown a pick all year it was more often the not followed by "He isn't turning the ball over, and making smart decisions". When someone mentioned his completion percentage is was attributed to the fact that he was playing smart, and working within the confines of his offense.

As a side passes that are almost intercepted are just that. Every QB has them and if we knocked every QB for them then no QB would go without criticism.

[Raptorman]

Speaking of receivers, is Jarius Wright ever going to suit up or what? Whats his issue?

I keep asking the same question. When does this kid get a chance? He has the speed, and no one has tape on him so why not let him play? I thougth for sure with Simpson out the other week he would have been on the field, but nope.

[Crax]

All the media reports I've heard are along the lines of "not likely anytime soon". It sounds like he doesn't do well in practice. Pelissero mentioned not looking good in practice I think. Here's one from Zulgad today

Judd Zulgad ‏@1500ESPNJudd

Don't think so. RT @SCUncensored: @1500ESPNJudd What is going on with Jarius Wright? Is he any closer to the field?

[Mothman]

I apologize for just selecting one line out of your post but we've discussed most of the rest before anyway. I just have to say, I think NFL scouts would probably disagree with that statement about the Vikings WRs. Going into the offseason, there was almost universal acknowledgement among fans and analysts that the Vikings needed help at WR. What has changed? Other than Simpson, who's had one good NFL season and has barely played this year, the Vikings are playing with the same receivers they had last season. Harvin's an excellent slot receiver and he can play outside but that's not really the strength of his game. On the outside, the Vikings basically have journeymen and backup-level players. I'd say WR clearly remains a weakness for this Vikings team or to put it another way, if it was a weakness last year, it's still a weakness now.

Jim

I'm quoting my own post (gasp!) but I just wanted to add this exchange between a fan and Star Tribune Vikings beat writer Dan Wiederer to the conversation:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... 45601.html

Comment From BrentFoster
What is our biggest weakness right now and is it possible to fix it with a midseason trade?

Dan Wiederer: To me, the biggest weakness is the mediocre WR corps. By far. And now, you cannot fix it with a midseason trade. This isn't like the NBA or MLB where you wheel and deal in the middle of the season to catalyze a postseason run. Please don't lose sight of the big picture: the Vikings aren't going to mortgage their future to make a run at this season's Super Bowl.

[mansquatch]

The WR take is becoming common place, but I’m not sure I entirely agree with it. We do not have a traditional outside #1 WR threat. However, we do have 2 unconventional weapons in Harvin and Rudolph, plus a RB that demands attention on every play. IMO the issue is we do not have a legit 3rd target who can consistently (for a #2/#3 guy) create opportunities in single coverage. Jerome Simpson should relish the opportunity to be that guy. He is not #1 Talent, but if he was willing to bust his tail to be that #2/3 guy, I think he’d carve a nice niche for himself on this team. Maybe Jarius Wright can get it together for that job by season end?

I also think that despite all my misgivings about bashing Ponder/Musgrave, they are part of the problem. The flip side of “Hey it is working, don’t mess with it” with regard to the short passing game is that at this point in the season it is also a trend. They have shown they can throw it long when they have to, but they do not do it unless they absolutely have to. Looking purely at the playcalling why is that? To me that means the coaches are seeing stuff in practice that is making them not want to call those plays. Why is that? The glass half full view would be “This Harvin Guy is so good we do not have to toss it deep”. I think that might be some of it, but hardly the whole story. I think they are seeing stuff in practice that is causing them to shy away from it. Part of it is probably the WR play, but I’m guessing they are also seeing some stuff from Ponder that is causing hesitation.

But hey, as much as the 3 week slide in Ponder has been irritating, we are still 2-1 during said slide. I might argue that the Tennessee game wasn’t really a slide since he bounced back so nicely. We’ve been competitive in every game this season and if not for maybe 3-4 plays could be undefeated right now. Hard not to like that. SKOL!

[Mothman]

The WR take is becoming common place, but I’m not sure I entirely agree with it. We do not have a traditional outside #1 WR threat. However, we do have 2 unconventional weapons in Harvin and Rudolph, plus a RB that demands attention on every play. IMO the issue is we do not have a legit 3rd target who can consistently (for a #2/#3 guy) create opportunities in single coverage. Jerome Simpson should relish the opportunity to be that guy. He is not #1 Talent, but if he was willing to bust his tail to be that #2/3 guy, I think he’d carve a nice niche for himself on this team. Maybe Jarius Wright can get it together for that job by season end?

Based on what you just wrote, I'm not sure you're really disagreeing with the idea that the WR corps is a weakness (aside from Harvin—does that qualification even need to be made anymore?). I think everyone agrees that Harvin and Rudolph provide Ponder with two good targets but only one of them is a WR and it's the absence of that outside threat that's the real issue. As you said, they need that 3rd target.

I also think that despite all my misgivings about bashing Ponder/Musgrave, they are part of the problem. The flip side of “Hey it is working, don’t mess with it” with regard to the short passing game is that at this point in the season it is also a trend. They have shown they can throw it long when they have to, but they do not do it unless they absolutely have to. Looking purely at the playcalling why is that? To me that means the coaches are seeing stuff in practice that is making them not want to call those plays. Why is that? The glass half full view would be “This Harvin Guy is so good we do not have to toss it deep”. I think that might be some of it, but hardly the whole story. I think they are seeing stuff in practice that is causing them to shy away from it. Part of it is probably the WR play, but I’m guessing they are also seeing some stuff from Ponder that is causing hesitation.

From what I've been reading and seeing, it's not necessarily a playcalling issue. It's an execution issue. The Vikes have insisted that they've been calling deeper throws all season but they don't always work out. For example, if you check out this video of Pelissero and Zulgad discussing the last game, in the first two minutes Pelissero talks about plays where they thought they'd have opportunities to get the ball downfield and things went wrong, "windows closed".

http://www.1500espn.com/videos/christia ... und_to_tam

[Crax]

Here's a bit more on Wright from the vikings q/a chat today.

Comment From Dan
Tom, you've said Jarius Wright hasn't been very good in practice. Is his route running or comprehension of the offense that bad, or what is it? He may not get on the field this year but do you guys think he have the speed or quickness yet to get separation in man coverage?
12:24


Tom Pelissero:
I don't think speed and quickness are the concerns with him. He comes from a very different offense, still learning the nuances, and I've never seen a guy drop more balls in practice. More than anything, he's caught in a numbers crunch. If something happened to Percy you can bet he'd be active.