Vikings Message Board.Com

From Judd Zulgad:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Perc ... g_us102912

Harvin, who is tied for the NFL lead with 60 receptions, said offensive coordinator Bill Musgrave had taken the past few days, "to really evaluate our offense and what we could do better."

One thing the Vikings worked on was introducing new concepts to the same plays the team runs and moving the personnel around.

Musgrave's evaluation went well beyond addressing Ponder's poor play of late and also put a focus on what the wide receivers should be doing.

Much of that included a simple focus on fundamentals that have been lacking. Things such as route running, making sure receivers are getting the proper depth on their routes, focusing on Ponder looking on the right side of the read and ball security.

"It's been fundamentals that have been killing us," Harvin said. " ... It's definitely little tweaks. But those little tweaks, they end up (being) really big, especially in games like we just (had). We've got to hold onto the ball, so ball security will be a must going forward."

Oh boy, I bet there are 7 phases of failing as a team. And we're right around phase 3 or 4. "Bringing up fundamentals" being right in the middle somewhere.

We didn't need the focus last week, but now? Fundamentals here we come!

Same old song and dance.

Pretty soon we'll get the stories about how Ponder needs to step forward more, or square up his shoulders, or keep his elbow high, or some other nonsense as he continues to struggle.

*sigh*

I don't think poor fundamentals is an excuse. In fact, I think Harvin is right. Both the offense and defense have exhibited poor fundamentals during key moments lately.

I see some of it coming from talent gaps that are present on the roster. But some of it, maybe too much of it, is also from a general lack of concentration as well.

I find it hard to believe that they are just now figuring out that fundamentals are lacking. It will be curious next game if there is any difference in the offense. If there is, then someone needs to light a fire more often for these guys.

Fundamentals like "our QB is not good".

PurpleMustReign wrote:I find it hard to believe that they are just now figuring out that fundamentals are lacking.

I din't think it's that the coaches are just recognizing a season-long problem now. They're probably reinforcing fundamentals that have slipped a little. Players have shifted into some bad habits or lost a little discipline over the past few games. It happens to every team at times and a big part of coaching is just reinforcing responsibilities, good habits, good technique, etc.

That's canned coach-speak, repeated on every Pop Warner practice field in the nation 500 times a day. It sounds like Musgrave is trying to convince the players that there's nothing wrong with the play-calling or the scheme. It's not being executed correctly. Just a matter of fixing a few fundamentals.

Can't really blame Percy for repeating it. The guy is incredibly talented, but he's not the brightest bulb. He whined during the off-season, now he's getting his touches and buying into whatever BS they're feeding him.

Eli wrote:That's canned coach-speak, repeated on every Pop Warner practice field in the nation 500 times a day. It sounds like Musgrave is trying to convince the players that there's nothing wrong with the play-calling or the scheme. It's not being executed correctly. Just a matter of fixing a few fundamentals.

It's obviously not being executed correctly.

Based on what I've read about Musgrave I have little doubt that he's re-examining what he's doing too. However, comments like one you referred to are "canned coach speak" for a reason: that's what coaches are supposed to do. They're supposed to teach players how to properly execute plays. Doing so is just doing their job and it doesn't necessarily reflect a coach trying to cover his ####.

Can't really blame Percy for repeating it. The guy is incredibly talented, but he's not the brightest bulb. He whined during the off-season, now he's getting his touches and buying into whatever BS they're feeding him.

You and Demi have me just shaking my head in this thread. Are you guys seeing flawless execution in these games? If not, then why are you responding so cynically to a report about the coaches reinforcing fundamentals when fundamentals clearly need to be reinforced?

Mothman wrote:You and Demi have me just shaking my head in this thread. Are you guys seeing flawless execution in these games? If not, then why are you responding so cynically to a report about the coaches reinforcing fundamentals when fundamentals clearly need to be reinforced?

I see a quarter back who's quickly losing his confidence due to his repeated mistakes, and an offense that's been dumbed-down to meet his limitations. I see a world-class running back that's been underutilized. I see a whiney star WR (that's redundant, isn't it?) with more talent than most teams have combined, who's been appeased by using him in the most mundane ways imaginable. I see a coaching staff looking for answers and falling back on cliches.

focusing on Ponder looking on the right side of the read and ball security.

Can anyone explain what is meant by the above? Ponder is not "looking on the right side of the read"? What could that mean, and how does his failure to do it correspond to his recent struggles?

With Ponder, for me 90% of his issues are caused by an inability to read the field (at all) because he's more worried about getting hit than getting the pass off, coupled with terrible mechanics caused mainly by the fact that he's either falling backwards when he throws, he's running sideways and backwards when he throws, or he's even partially or totally left the ground when he throws. Without a stable base it's very hard to throw with pace and accuracy even if the read is correct (witness a few blatantly bad misses on simple dump offs in recent games). So Ponder has to stop his happy feet and get his brain refocused not so much on the pressure and more on his options and footwork to deliver the ball on time where it needs to go.

Seattle will provide an excellent measuring stick for Ponder at this point. Good defense, road game in a loud stadium, and a few terrible performances in a row behind him. Now is the time when Ponder is either going to show he can get it under control and make the necessary adjustments, or whether he's going to keep spiraling down to earth. As much as I expect him to keep spiraling, I'm hoping against hope he can do what needs to be done and start to turn things around.

Eli wrote: I see a quarter back who's quickly losing his confidence due to his repeated mistakes, and an offense that's been dumbed-down to meet his limitations.

What does either have to do with picking up a blitz or blocking a rushing DE? What does either have to do with running a route correctly?

I see a world-class running back that's been underutilized. I see a whiney star WR (that's redundant, isn't it?) with more talent than most teams have combined, who's been appeased by using him in the most mundane ways imaginable. I see a coaching staff looking for answers and falling back on cliches.

I see a hardened cynic.

I see some of those things too but none of that changes the fact that fundamentals clearly need to be reinforced.

I don't know what you want the coaching staff to say or do. I think they should try to get more creative but I don't know if it will work. This offense isn't simply being "dumbed down" for Ponder. The scheme is pretty obviously a consequence of limitations and not just the QB's limitations. I've been saying all season that shortcomings elsewhere on offense have just as much to do with it and the more we see defenses put eight men in the box and blitz to fill gaps, pressure the QB and take away running lanes, the more we see the limitations of players other than the QB. The receivers have a hard time beating single coverage down the field and pass protection issues abound. Short passes aren't just a way to help the QB, they're a method of dealing with pressure and compensating for a receiving corps that has a hard time getting open once they get into the coverage.

Ponder's confidence does look shaken but I'm betting that has much to do with how hard it is to make plays now that these offensive weaknesses are being further exposed as it does with his own mistakes. Take away Harvin, contain Peterson and who is Ponder going to beat a defense with play after play? Who can beat single coverage?

I'm convinced that's why they're throwing to Simpson so much because if he's not the answer to that question, I'm not sure they have one.

VikingLord wrote: Can anyone explain what is meant by the above? Ponder is not "looking on the right side of the read"? What could that mean, and how does his failure to do it correspond to his recent struggles?

I'm not sure how to interpret it. I haven't seen that exact turn of phrase before. I'm guessing it either means looking to the single receiver side in 3 WR sets or else Zulgad literally means looking to the right side of the field. Maybe he's talking about pre-snap reads... I don't know.

With Ponder, for me 90% of his issues are caused by an inability to read the field (at all) because he's more worried about getting hit than getting the pass off...

Frankly, I just don't see that and I've been looking for it because you keep talking about it. He seems to read the field fairly well and I don't get the feeling he's more worried about getting hit than getting the pass off. Most of the time, when he runs, he runs to extend plays and looks for someone to get open. I do agree that he gets his feet in bad positions at times though.

What are you seeing that leads you to believe Ponder isn't able to read the field at all most of the time?

Eli wrote:That's canned coach-speak, repeated on every Pop Warner practice field in the nation 500 times a day. It sounds like Musgrave is trying to convince the players that there's nothing wrong with the play-calling or the scheme. It's not being executed correctly. Just a matter of fixing a few fundamentals.

Can't really blame Percy for repeating it. The guy is incredibly talented, but he's not the brightest bulb. He whined during the off-season, now he's getting his touches and buying into whatever BS they're feeding him.

So this huge surge in missed tackles by the defense, the OL being somewhat abysmal in the passing game aren't related to basic football fundamentals? The Vikings, on a basic level, have been regressing more then anything. Missed tackles, bad pass blocking, and increased penalties have been a big factor in the past 3 games. It isn't an excuse, but it is a trend that has been gaining steam and inhibiting the full (but limited) potential of this team.

Boon wrote:The Rudolph TD in the San Fran game comes to mind. The last interception vs Tampa also comes to mind. Also fresh in my memory is the pass right before the half vs Tampa where he was almost picked off trying to force a ball to Simpson when Harvin was open 10 yards out with no one around him, AND HARVIN WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF SIMPSON. Its first read or no read with this QB. And his decision making has been far into questionable status.

I think the last two are more indicative of Ponder pressing and trying to force a play when there isn't one there than of an inability to read the defense. There's a difference between a QB not understanding what he sees in front of him and a QB trying to make an ill-advised throw because he believes he can do it or because he's pressing too hard to make something happen in a late half or late game situation.

I assume the TD you referred to is the second one Ponder threw to Rudolph in the SF game. AD was wide open on that play but it also looked like he was directly behind the unblocked, blitzing LB in Ponder's line of sight. Ponder may have missed him because his view was blocked or he might have just decided throwing to Rudolph was a better idea than trying to throw right at a blitzing LB. Either way, the result was a TD. Not bad...

I'm not claiming Ponder doesn't struggle with some things (he clearly does) but I don't see evidence that "90% of his issues are caused by an inability to read the field (at all)".

Regarding VikingLord's question about "looking on the right side of the read": the more I think about it, the more I wonder if it does refer to pre-snap reads. They often go from left to right, with the QB first looking at the left corner to see if he is lined up to play press or zone coverage, then to the safeties, the right corner, the LBs, back left again and so on.

Mothman wrote: Regarding VikingLord's question about "looking on the right side of the read": the more I think about it, the more I wonder if it does refer to pre-snap reads. They often go from left to right, with the QB first looking at the left corner to see if he is lined up to play press or zone coverage, then to the safeties, the right corner, the LBs, back left again and so on.

I think you have a valid point, but I also think there is more to it. An example comes to mind where Simpson broke off his route due to the type of coverage he was getting to the DB. Ponder had a quick release and the only guy there was the DB. Part of chemisty is trusting a WR to run the correct route, but also knowing where the WR is going to be given what the defense shows. (this isn't new in the NFL, Chris Carter used to do this stuff and talked about it. The QB needs to be on the same page.)

IMO it is a massive amount of info to take in and get the ball out in under 5 seconds to the right guy with accuracy, zip, touch etc. All the while on the move. Ponder is a smart, thinking guy. My guess is he is getting more comfortable with the process, but still not 100% of the way there. (like all 2nd year QB) Part of it is also confidence. He is probably over thinking his throws right now because he is getting rattled from free running blitzers, out of position WR, the pressure of playing QB, etc.

IMO the Tampa game was probably ideal for this to happen. Ponder has a 10 day rest to regroup and "smell the roses". Then two games to make some adjustmetns followed by the bye week. It wouldn't surprise me to see him get a whole lot better in that time frame. We'll see.