Vikings Message Board.Com

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:09 am This is a team that was top 8 in scoring offense, top 5 in scoring defense. They beat a very good Saints team in the playoffs and then got beat by a better team.

Why? And how do we improve on an already solid team, so that doesn't happen again next season?

#1 Elflien needs to be replaced. It should be via the draft, but Rick has absolutely refused to invest significant draft capital in the guard position and instead chooses to buy guards in FAs. I don't understand the logic, and it clearly isn't working. We don't have money to buy a guard this offseason, so I am very concerned Elf will not be shelfed.

#2 Upgrade at 3 tech or possibly both DT spots. Again, this has to happen via the draft or possibly they already have an upgrade on the roster. If so, I am not sure why he wasn't starting over a scrub like Stephen.

#3 Find an explosive edge rusher in the draft to put at LDE opposite Hunter. We cannot afford to take a step back in our pass rush when Griffen walks. The pass rush to the defense is like a QB is to the offense. Without a good one you are sunk.

#4 Upgrade at one starting CB spot or find a new nickle CB. If Mack moves to the outside, I don't trust Hughes on the other side of him. If somehow Hughes becomes significantly better, then we need to figure out what to do at the nickle CB spot. There is no one on the roster who can play nickle outside of Hughes and Mack apparently, since they had to use Sendejo there and he was just awful at it. I think the majority of the FA money they have will go to fill this spot.


In short, to improve over this season, we need to find 4 good immediate starters in the draft. One at a position the GM sucks at identifying (guard), one at a position that takes a year or two to figure out in Zimmer's D (CB). F*ck.

Spot on post Stump. This is exactly what I think too... and I won't lie, I'm very concerned it won't get done also (or at least correctly).

1. Interior line is the biggest issue, and it's definitely not something Rick has been able to figure out before. This really concerns me. A lot.

2. I wonder if Armon Watts could be a guy that fits nicely for us. He was getting a lot of buzz before he was injured. I haven't watched him closely, but he was active the last 6 games (after being inactive the first 9 weeks), so there is something there I think. Not sure he fills the need though.

3. Odenigbo made some nice splash plays this year, but I'll confess I don't know how he graded out overall. He's probably not as good as Griffen or he would have been playing more. But he was getting snaps that's for sure. It doesn't appear that the cupboard is completely empty at the position at least. I do worry that without a good DE opposite Hunter, it will hurt his effectiveness. I don't see any chance that we resign Griffen unless he REALLY wants to be a Viking and gives a deep discount.

4. I was hoping to see Hughes make more strides this year. It's possible that he wasn't 100% back from the injury, and next year he could show up more. Plus, year 3 in Zim's system has to help. He is talented, so we'll see what happens. It will be really interesting to see what happens with Rhodes. I'm sure he'll be asked to restructure, and we'll know quickly what his frame of mind is. He seems to have a lot of pride, so I'm guessing he might just hold his ground and test the market after he's cut. I don't see any way they'll just leave him with his current contact in place, but Zim can be stubborn I suppose. They will likely try to resign Waynes, but I have a feeling they'll have stiff competition. I think Harris needs to be the priority, but he'll probably be getting even more interest.

I can't argue with any of the roster moves mentioned so far in this thread. They're all legitimate needs but when one lists each position of need the list becomes IMHO too long to fix in one off season. My observation is that as the Stones once said "you can't always get what you want", hopefully we will get what we need. These lists don't take it into consideration that one or more of the other 31 one teams will beat us in a bidding war on for example a talented OT. Neither do they cover the very real possibility (more like a fact) that coveted draft picks will fall off the board and we'll be back into trading picks and trying to make magic out of a draft position that didn't meet our needs. As many first round busts have taught us and every other team, they might look good on paper and in the combine but prove to be injury prone, an immature head case or not smart enough to fully grasp the playbook and play the kind of fast game required in the NFL.

Seeing that Kirk is in the last year of his three year deal I see the Vikings going all out to patch up the holes but who knows how that will work out. New coaches, tweaks to the current system that everyone will need to learn, too many needs, and a tough schedule next season. I see us giving the "all we need is a few more pieces" philosophy their best effort with Kirk at the end of his three year deal and a bunch of players falling off. In spite of all that I think we're still good enough to hit .500 and if we manage to squeak out a playoff spot we're one and out.

After that I expect that they'll blow the whole thing up and start from scratch. It must be frustrating for the Wilfs to put this much money into the franchise, hire what they considered all the right people, build new facilities and still come up short. They built a great organization but the team struggles to reflect the quality of their work environment and surroundings on the field.

One other thing that I think gets lost on these conversations. There are 31 other teams out there doing everything they can to improve during the off season. When those other teams line up against us on the field their goal is the same as ours, to win. We put everything we had into the NO game and faces a rested team in their building. That is never an easy task and underscores why teams fare much better as #1 seed.

StanM wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:34 am One other thing that I think gets lost on these conversations. There are 31 other teams out there doing everything they can to improve during the off season. When those other teams line up against us on the field their goal is the same as ours, to win. We put everything we had into the NO game and faces a rested team in their building. That is never an easy task and underscores why teams fare much better as #1 seed.

Titans were in largely the same situation against the Ravens and managed to win. Plus, I read on vikings.com that the players didn't feel fatigued heading into the game, or at least more fatigued than usual, so at this point I'm more inclined to believe that we just saw the "Mr. Hyde" version of this team that we had seen a few times already this season.

Watching the video clips posted by S197 http://www.vikingsmessageboard.com/view ... rt=165#top showing the routes being run and open receivers that Cousins missed gives me even more pause about what this team can do this offseason to improve heading into next year. Guys were open downfield, but Cousins wouldn't pull the trigger and preferred to check down. He either didn't see them or did see them and didn't trust himself to be able to read the field and/or get the ball to them. That isn't going to cut the mustard in the playoffs and against better teams. Its almost as if Cousins could see the run game wasn't working and he tightened up, which is the opposite of what the Vikings needed from him in that situation.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:45 am Watching the video clips posted by S197 http://www.vikingsmessageboard.com/view ... rt=165#top showing the routes being run and open receivers that Cousins missed gives me even more pause about what this team can do this offseason to improve heading into next year. Guys were open downfield, but Cousins wouldn't pull the trigger and preferred to check down. He either didn't see them or did see them and didn't trust himself to be able to read the field and/or get the ball to them. That isn't going to cut the mustard in the playoffs and against better teams. Its almost as if Cousins could see the run game wasn't working and he tightened up, which is the opposite of what the Vikings needed from him in that situation.

We clearly have a Jeckyl/Hyde thing with Cousins too, not just the team, and that probably can't entirely be fixed either. Hopefully we can at least put him in a position where we see a bit more Jeckyl than Hyde. Jeckyl is pretty darn good! We saw more of that guy this year then in 2018, so maybe we fix a couple more things and we see even more in 2020.... but hopefully not in the playoffs again.

Before anyone jumps on me about blaming this all on Cousins... I'm not. Save it for someone else.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:28 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:04 pm 1. Trade Kirk
2. Sign Teddy

Again, I don’t understand the infatuation with teddy. He has way more limitations as a passer than cousins does. He doesn’t test downfield no less doesn’t have the arm for it, doesn’t have the accuracy especially on deeper passes, is way more conservative, etc.

And I don’t wanna hear that “guys get behind him” or “he’s a leader. The entire offense did nothing but talk cousins up this year. Theilen and Rudy recently said they’ve never been around a guy that prepares as much as he does.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’ve never seen a QB get more praise and love by fans for doing so little for an organization. Kyle sloter makes a good push for that but teddy is right there with him. His passing ability when he was here was very underwhelming. And guys want to claim that cousins can’t operate when cook isn’t running well or out (even though I pointed out 4 games where that wasn’t the case this year and we went 3-1 in those games) go look at Teddy with AP in 2015. When AP played well, we won. When he didn’t we lost. Literally just about every time from what I can remember. The difference is, cousins has the passing ability to win us games when the run game is shut down where teddy doesn’t. Yeah cousins didn’t win us every game when cook wasn’t going anywhere. But he kept us competitive in many and won some. Teddy couldn’t do that because he has limitations as a passer and is very conservative.

Teddy is not coming back here and we aren’t trading cousins. So let’s put that to bed

I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:28 pm.

And I don’t wanna hear that “guys get behind him” or “he’s a leader. The entire offense did nothing but talk cousins up this year.

Except for when Diggs asked to be traded because of him and Theilen called him out that is.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:28 pm

Again, I don’t understand the infatuation with teddy. He has way more limitations as a passer than cousins does. He doesn’t test downfield no less doesn’t have the arm for it, doesn’t have the accuracy especially on deeper passes, is way more conservative, etc.

And I don’t wanna hear that “guys get behind him” or “he’s a leader. The entire offense did nothing but talk cousins up this year. Theilen and Rudy recently said they’ve never been around a guy that prepares as much as he does.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’ve never seen a QB get more praise and love by fans for doing so little for an organization. Kyle sloter makes a good push for that but teddy is right there with him. His passing ability when he was here was very underwhelming. And guys want to claim that cousins can’t operate when cook isn’t running well or out (even though I pointed out 4 games where that wasn’t the case this year and we went 3-1 in those games) go look at Teddy with AP in 2015. When AP played well, we won. When he didn’t we lost. Literally just about every time from what I can remember. The difference is, cousins has the passing ability to win us games when the run game is shut down where teddy doesn’t. Yeah cousins didn’t win us every game when cook wasn’t going anywhere. But he kept us competitive in many and won some. Teddy couldn’t do that because he has limitations as a passer and is very conservative.

Teddy is not coming back here and we aren’t trading cousins. So let’s put that to bed

I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

Man it would be fun to see what he could do in a legit passing offense built around him and not his RB or Drew Brees. Even in an offense built for another QB, his numbers in 5 starts project out to be slightly better than Cousins' over 15 games.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

That would be a trip. I don't think there is any realistic chance it would happen, but it would be interesting. I don't know that it would make us better, but I was really looking forward to seeing what Teddy could do before his injury. Prior to that, I didn't see much to get me excited. I had an open mind about it though.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:41 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:28 pm.

And I don’t wanna hear that “guys get behind him” or “he’s a leader. The entire offense did nothing but talk cousins up this year.

Except for when Diggs asked to be traded because of him and Theilen called him out that is.

Diggs never specifically asked to be traded. That was all speculation. And yeah they were frustrated with the entire offense. But yeah use the worst game of the season as an example I guess? So let’s say from week 5 on, they were fully on board, respected him and talked him up.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:28 pm

Again, I don’t understand the infatuation with teddy. He has way more limitations as a passer than cousins does. He doesn’t test downfield no less doesn’t have the arm for it, doesn’t have the accuracy especially on deeper passes, is way more conservative, etc.

And I don’t wanna hear that “guys get behind him” or “he’s a leader. The entire offense did nothing but talk cousins up this year. Theilen and Rudy recently said they’ve never been around a guy that prepares as much as he does.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’ve never seen a QB get more praise and love by fans for doing so little for an organization. Kyle sloter makes a good push for that but teddy is right there with him. His passing ability when he was here was very underwhelming. And guys want to claim that cousins can’t operate when cook isn’t running well or out (even though I pointed out 4 games where that wasn’t the case this year and we went 3-1 in those games) go look at Teddy with AP in 2015. When AP played well, we won. When he didn’t we lost. Literally just about every time from what I can remember. The difference is, cousins has the passing ability to win us games when the run game is shut down where teddy doesn’t. Yeah cousins didn’t win us every game when cook wasn’t going anywhere. But he kept us competitive in many and won some. Teddy couldn’t do that because he has limitations as a passer and is very conservative.

Teddy is not coming back here and we aren’t trading cousins. So let’s put that to bed

I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

Well then I’m glad you don’t call the shots on this team. You must think Kyle Sloter is a stud too

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:28 pm

Again, I don’t understand the infatuation with teddy. He has way more limitations as a passer than cousins does. He doesn’t test downfield no less doesn’t have the arm for it, doesn’t have the accuracy especially on deeper passes, is way more conservative, etc.

And I don’t wanna hear that “guys get behind him” or “he’s a leader. The entire offense did nothing but talk cousins up this year. Theilen and Rudy recently said they’ve never been around a guy that prepares as much as he does.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’ve never seen a QB get more praise and love by fans for doing so little for an organization. Kyle sloter makes a good push for that but teddy is right there with him. His passing ability when he was here was very underwhelming. And guys want to claim that cousins can’t operate when cook isn’t running well or out (even though I pointed out 4 games where that wasn’t the case this year and we went 3-1 in those games) go look at Teddy with AP in 2015. When AP played well, we won. When he didn’t we lost. Literally just about every time from what I can remember. The difference is, cousins has the passing ability to win us games when the run game is shut down where teddy doesn’t. Yeah cousins didn’t win us every game when cook wasn’t going anywhere. But he kept us competitive in many and won some. Teddy couldn’t do that because he has limitations as a passer and is very conservative.

Teddy is not coming back here and we aren’t trading cousins. So let’s put that to bed

I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

While you are at it, let’s bring Ponder back

No offense but your idea is ridiculous and is not going to happen

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:34 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm

I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

While you are at it, let’s bring Ponder back

No offense but your idea is ridiculous and is not going to happen

+1 As posted in the other thread, there might be a better chance we trade for Burrows than pulling off this deal lol. Mike Zimmers got a better chance landing an offensive coordinator job than we do trading for burrows or making the ridiculous move of benching or trading Kirk and signing Teddy

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:49 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm

I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

Man it would be fun to see what he could do in a legit passing offense built around him and not his RB or Drew Brees. Even in an offense built for another QB, his numbers in 5 starts project out to be slightly better than Cousins' over 15 games.

If Teddy is as good as some think then he will get a ton of coin this off season. He's not as good as people think. He's the same guy. Frail, not a strong arm to drive the ball down field and keep the defense back. Why do you think the Saints went back to Brees? He can't beat out an old man who can't make the trows he once did. That says nothing I guess. The Saints could trade the great Teddy for the top pick and draft Burrow. That won't happen either. IMO Cousins is better than Teddy. This was a bait post and you got me. Teddy blows get over it. Same with this Marottia guy people talk about. He blows to. Teddy is a backup. We don't need that.

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:29 am Why do you think the Saints went back to Brees? He can't beat out an old man who can't make the trows he once did. That says nothing I guess.

Look, I'm not a Teddy believer either, but to say he's not good because he went back to bench after a hall-of-famer came back from injury is really outrageous. That actually does say nothing about Teddy. Brees is one of the greatest QBs in history, whether his arm is the same or not, you're not going to bench him. He is still a fantastic QB, and continues to set records.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:49 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 pm

I'd trade Kirk and sign Teddy if possible. Otherwise I'd bench Kirk and sign Teddy.

Man it would be fun to see what he could do in a legit passing offense built around him and not his RB or Drew Brees. Even in an offense built for another QB, his numbers in 5 starts project out to be slightly better than Cousins' over 15 games.

So are you saying this offense is built around Kirk Cousins? Because that isnt true. It's built around the run game and Dalvin Cook. Similar to how the offense was in 2015 built around Peterson. The only difference being they hardly threw to AP where Cook gets a lot of targets. This is a Gary Kubiak offense. The screens, play action, etc. isnt something they just did for Kirk Cousins, it's something he has always done. Which is why it's the best offensive scheme for Cousins. But this offense is clearly geared towards the run game. The difference between this offense and Teddy's offense in 2015 is Teddy couldnt make the throws Cousins does. Teddy is an overly conservative game manager. Again, look when we lost in 2015, it was because AP couldnt get anywhere and in turn, Teddy couldnt carry the load. Results in an L or was bailed out by his defense. Not all games but at least 4 of the games this year, Cousins was able to carry the load when Cook wasnt getting anywhere going 3-1 in those games.

As for him at the Saints, I find it funny you arent counting his 6th game because he didnt "start" and it happened to be his worst game by far. Let's be honest, Brees was knocked out early in that game and only threw 5 passes. Teddy threw 30. That was Teddy's game and yeah he didnt play well at all. In 4 of those 6 games, Teddy YPA was under 6.7. Cousins was 8.1 on the year. Why? Because Teddy is an overly conservative game manager. And the game that is jacking these stats up was against the 30th ranked pass defense in the entire NFL in Tampa Bay (most of the year they were sitting in dead last).

It just kills me that somehow, some way, fans still think Teddy was some kind of great passer. Was there a different Teddy that played for the Vikings that was a good passer? Because I sure dont know which Teddy you are talking about. His passing ability was by FAR the most underwhelming aspect of his game. And guys try to use the excuse that AP was the reason Teddy couldnt succeed as a passer. He had 447 passes that year, Cousins had 444 this year. He had his chances and did very little with them. If our 2015 team could play our 2019 team, our 2019 team beats them and beats them handily and it would come down to the QBs. Teddy couldnt hold a stick to Cousins when it comes to passing ability. It's not even close.

But you have guys say Cousins is "scared" or Cousins missed open WRs, or Cousins cant handle the run game being shut down, etc. Nobody was more scared to throw the ball downfield than Teddy was. I can bet my bank account that Teddy missed PLENTY of open WRs (which regardless is a stupid argument because you dont know who is what # read) and nobody struggled more than Teddy when his running back couldnt get anywhere.

Look at the games AP was under 90 yards in 2015:

SF- 31 yards, Teddy was brutal, LOSS
Denver- 81 yards, Teddy was strip sacked on final drive, LOSS
KC- 60 yards, Teddy throws 2 picks, we hold KC's offense to 10 points, WIN
GB- 45 yards, had the game at 19-13, Teddy's final drives consist of sack, sack, turnover on downs, turnover on downs, LOSS
Seattle- 18 yards, Teddy threw for 118 yards and an INT, LOSS
Arizona- 69 yards, Teddy plays one of his better games but again, strip sacked on the final drive, LOSS
Chicago- 60 yards, a team that already threw the towel in, Teddy has the best game of his career, WIN
GB- 67 yards, Teddy threw for a pathetic 99 yards and 0 TDs, WIN

So out of all those, our 5 losses were in there and Teddy was pretty brutal in all 5 of those. The 3 wins we had, 2 were saved by his defense holding KC to 10 points when he was throwing costly INTs and GB when we harassed Rodgers all game and scored a TD. So ok, let's give Teddy ONE "legitimate" win vs a pathetic Bears team at home. The rest were ridden on the coat tails of Adrian Peterson

....but guys complain about Cousins and defend a guy that showed and did very little for this franchise. Less than what Cousins has done