Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote: Even if we assume it's similar, that doesn't answer my question. In what way should the training staff be held accountable and on what basis?

I personally believe both situations to be the luck of the draw and that fans are just making it more then it is.

Mothman wrote: Even if we assume it's similar, that doesn't answer my question. In what way should the training staff be held accountable and on what basis?

I think he was using it as proof that people overreact to injuries, and also that the staff can look into different methods and solve the problem.
Did i just stick up for a Packer fan?

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VikingPaul73 wrote:If a team goes 2-14, the coach is held accountable.
If a QB has a passer rating of 20, the QB is held accountable.
If a RB fumbles 10 times per game, the RB is held accountable.

Again, how do you want them held accountable? Are you simply using "held accountable" as a euphemism for fired? If so, I'll ask again: what basis is there for blaming the training staff? If not, in what way should they be held accountable?

There is a rash of bizarre injuries occurring at a shocking rate....shouldn't the trainer be held accountable??

That depends on the reason(s) for the injuries. I don't believe in simplistic retribution just for the sake of blaming someone.

Or shouldn't that at least be discussed/investigated internally?

According to reports, they're trying to figure out why so many players have experienced that particular injury over the past two years so I imagine training methods are a part of that internal discussion. However, without a clear idea of why the injuries are occurring and if they're occurring for the same reason, it's difficult to hold anybody accountable for them.

What is the metric for success of a trainer?

I imagine it's his overall performance in all facets of his job over a period of time.

Jordysghost wrote:I personally believe both situations to be the luck of the draw and that fans are just making it more then it is.

I see. Sorry, I just wasn't clear about the point you were making.

Mothman wrote: I see. Sorry, I just wasn't clear about the point you were making.

But one factor in the Vikings situation is that they did in fact switch their lifting regimen and were in fact throwing kettle balls over their heads, etc., and trying to become more explosive. Is that a factor, I don't know.

fiestavike wrote:But one factor in the Vikings situation is that they did in fact switch their lifting regimen and were in fact throwing kettle balls over their heads, etc., and trying to become more explosive. Is that a factor, I don't know.

I don't know either. If I recall correctly, it was Zimmer himself who wanted the team to switch to free weights and change their lifting regimen. They added a new strength and conditioning coach last year to help implement those changes. If I recall correctly, several of these pectoral injuries have been on-field injuries so they may or may not have anything to do with lifting or training. Zimmer said they've monitored things and a lot of people have told them it's just freak luck. It's entirely possible it's as simple as that.

I have never torn a pec muscle, and i eat lots of Macaroni and Cheese... Coincidence?

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PurpleMustReign wrote:I have never torn a pec muscle, and i eat lots of Macaroni and Cheese... Coincidence?

I doubt it. Keep wolfin' down that mac n' cheese!

Mothman wrote: I doubt it. Keep wolfin' down that mac n' cheese!

Yes, fantastic analogy.

Mothman - Never said fired, that was just how DK twisted my post and you jumped right on board.

Where I work, when something is your responsibility and there are major issues, you are held accountable. You own it. Guilty until proven innocent. At the very least he needs to address this, come up with potential causes and fixes. It's the trainers responsibility and he needs to own it.

You have taken shots at my ideas without posting your ideas. What would you do, just assume its a coincidence and at anyone who would suggest otherwise?

VikingPaul73 wrote:Mothman - Never said fired, that was just how DK twisted my post and you jumped right on board.

Where I work, when something is your responsibility and there are major issues, you are held accountable. You own it. Guilty until proven innocent. At the very least he needs to address this, come up with potential causes and fixes. It's the trainers responsibility and he needs to own it.

You have taken shots at my ideas without posting your ideas. What would you do, just assume its a coincidence and at anyone who would suggest otherwise?

Even if your premiss were correct, I don't think its on Sugarman, I think its on the strength and conditioning staff.

VikingPaul73 wrote:Mothman - Never said fired, that was just how DK twisted my post and you jumped right on board.

I know you didn't say "fired". That's why I asked you to elaborate.

Where I work, when something is your responsibility and there are major issues, you are held accountable. You own it. Guilty until proven innocent. At the very least he needs to address this, come up with potential causes and fixes. It's the trainers responsibility and he needs to own it.

You have taken shots at my ideas without posting your ideas.

I wasn't taking shots at your ideas and I'm sorry if it seemed that way to you. I just asked you a few questions. I'm trying to have a discussion. I'm still not clear on what sort of accountability you want to see. It sounds like you just want someone to stand up and take blame for a series of injuries that may not be anybody's fault at all, regardless of whether there's any evidence to suggest fault.

What would you do, just assume its a coincidence and at anyone who would suggest otherwise?

Of course not. I just see no reason to make assumptions and condemnations without supporting evidence. I'd try to assess the cause(s) of the injuries and proceed from there. I don't believe in a "guilty until proven innocent" approach and I see no reason to make anybody a scapegoat just so there's someone to blame/hold accountable for a series of injuries. If they identify a common cause for the pectoral injuries and it turns out a particular individual is in some way responsible for them (perhaps through an ill-advised training regimen or something), I see no reason why that person shouldn't "own it" and be accountable for their choices. However, I don't believe pointing fingers or assuming incompetence/negligence is productive. I don't think Sugarman, the strength and conditioning coach, Mike Zimmer or anybody else needs to step up and say "It's my fault" unless there's an actual, evidence-based reason to do so. The blame game is a waste of time when it's an end in itself.

PurpleMustReign wrote:I have never torn a pec muscle, and i eat lots of Macaroni and Cheese... Coincidence?

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+1

Mothman wrote:
LOL!

Regarding Sugarman: he's been with the Vikes for a long time but this issue is a recent development which makes me think the training regimen has changed under Zimmer and perhaps that's what they need to look at to solve the problem. It's also possible that really is just a coincidence.

Also if anything it would probably be the strength and conditioning coach, I doubt Sugarman has anything to do with it other than trying to put the pieces back together.

Anyway, lets get back on topic. This thread should be primarily for reporting injuries. All the speculation stuff is better in another (non-sticky) thread.