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Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:06 pm
by Raptorman
mondry wrote:Oh yeah, just not historically bad will be an improvement!
So this got me thinking. Just how bad have they been? Well the answer surprised me.
Code: Select all
Off Rank Def Rank
OPPG DPPG Pts Yds Pts Yds
2013 24.4 30.0 14 13 32 31
2012 23.7 21.8 14 20 14 16
2011 21.3 28.1 19 18 31 21
2010 17.6 21.8 29 23 18 8
2009 29.4 19.5 2 5 10 6
2008 23.7 20.8 12 17 13 6
2007 22.8 19.4 15 13 12 20
2006 17.6 20.4 26 23 14 8
2004 19.1 21.5 19 25 19 21
2005 25.3 24.7 6 4 26 28
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:45 pm
by S197
Spielman insinuated that refs were calling a lot more penalties in the preseason but may back off a bit once the regular season starts. I sure hope so.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:53 pm
by Mothman
S197 wrote:Spielman insinuated that refs were calling a lot more penalties in the preseason but may back off a bit once the regular season starts. I sure hope so.
They often try to make a point about rules changes in the preseason. I suspect we'll see fewer flags in the regular season.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:58 pm
by mondry
Raptorman wrote:
So this got me thinking. Just how bad have they been? Well the answer surprised me.
Code: Select all
Off Rank Def Rank
OPPG DPPG Pts Yds Pts Yds
2013 24.4 30.0 14 13 32 31
2012 23.7 21.8 14 20 14 16
2011 21.3 28.1 19 18 31 21
2010 17.6 21.8 29 23 18 8
2009 29.4 19.5 2 5 10 6
2008 23.7 20.8 12 17 13 6
2007 22.8 19.4 15 13 12 20
2006 17.6 20.4 26 23 14 8
2004 19.1 21.5 19 25 19 21
2005 25.3 24.7 6 4 26 28
Yep, I really wasn't kidding with my statement. Our talent has been sub par which has hurt us no doubt and combined with Leslies outdated soft cover 2 scheme it was a nearly worst ever unit. One of those problems received a massive upgrade, the other hopefully improved some.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:20 pm
by Mothman
mondry wrote:Yep, I really wasn't kidding with my statement. Our talent has been sub par which has hurt us no doubt and combined with Leslies outdated soft cover 2 scheme it was a nearly worst ever unit. One of those problems received a massive upgrade, the other hopefully improved some.
I'm convinced talent and health were easily the biggest factors in those two awful seasons on defense and I think the year in between them underlines that. Zimmer obviously has the qualifications necessary to improve the defense so let's hope they stay healthy and their depth doesn't get tested like it did last year and in 2011. If it does, I have a feeling that upgrade will look a lot less massive.
The defense will probably feature at least 8 new starters so hopefully those new faces will help lead to improvement as well.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:29 pm
by Delaqure
Mothman wrote:
I'm convinced talent and health were easily the biggest factors in those two awful seasons on defense and I think the year in between them underlines that. Zimmer obviously has the qualifications necessary to improve the defense so let's hope they stay healthy and their depth doesn't get tested like it did last year and in 2011. If it does, I have a feeling that upgrade will look a lot less massive.
The defense will probably feature at least 8 new starters so hopefully those new faces will help lead to improvement as well.
I think you're spot on here. Combine those factors with a poor defensive scheme and you have a recipe for disaster. I also think Frazier and company really struggled in being able to coach up struggling players. Had injuries not so decimated our defense we wouldn't have been so bad for sure. Should we get hit with the injury bug this year again it will be interesting to see how the defense plays and how Zimmer is able to adjust. Although I hope that doesn't happen.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:31 pm
by Mothman
Delaqure wrote:I think you're spot on here. Combine those factors with a poor defensive scheme and you have a recipe for disaster. I also think Frazier and company really struggled in being able to coach up struggling players. Had injuries not so decimated our defense we wouldn't have been so bad for sure. Should we get hit with the injury bug this year again it will be interesting to see how the defense plays and how Zimmer is able to adjust. Although I hope that doesn't happen.
I hope it doesn't happen either.
I think there's a cumulative effect that occurs when you get too many players on the field at once that are lacking in one way or another (talent, experience, speed, athleticism, whatever). When that happens, I don't think there's a scheme that can save a team. If they're overmatched, they're simply going to lose more often than they're going to win.
To put it another way, it's one thing to coach up a struggling player when he can be placed in the context of a defense that isn't full of them. When there's a bunch of them struggling... it adds up and I don't think coaching can overcome that. On top of that, once you run into personnel issues, it starts to create limitations on what you can execute effectively. I don't think Frazier's defensive scheme was inherently poor but it may have been a poor match for the roster he had last season. Then again, I really don't know what scheme would have worked.
Personally, I think what we've seen happen with the defensive personnel this offseason has served to emphasize just where the Vikes were lacking last season. They immediately went out and addressed their need for a stronger inside presence on the line, their need for a better talent at the CB position and the need for more speed and athleticism in the LB corps. Areas they didn't address with significant talent upgrades in the draft or free agency, like MLB and the other safety position, are still left with a degree of uncertainty regarding who will start, even with the season just over a week away. In other words, I think Zimmer recognized and either addressed or is now forced to deal with the same inadequacies on the defensive depth chart that sunk Frazier. That's why we're going to see as many as 8 new starters on that side of the ball and why we're likely to see defense be an area of emphasis again next offseason.
Sorry to be longwinded. That's just my take.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:47 pm
by DK Sweets
I have to disagree with the assessment that Frazier's scheme wasn't poor. At no point in his tenure did I ever feel like we stood a good chance against an elite QB unless we had 5+ sacks on the day and constant pressure. Our coverage was always poor; the only strength of our defense was strong personnel on the line. And the way he played our DEs made our linebackers have to be extra vigilant in run support, which compounded our pass defending woes. I'm not going to crown Zimmer as the king of defense just yet, but at least his schemes show diversity and can keep an opposing team guessing as to what kind of pressure they are going to get and where it might be coming from.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:04 pm
by Reignman
Raptorman wrote:
So this got me thinking. Just how bad have they been? Well the answer surprised me.
Code: Select all
Off Rank Def Rank
OPPG DPPG Pts Yds Pts Yds
2013 24.4 30.0 14 13 32 31
2012 23.7 21.8 14 20 14 16
2011 21.3 28.1 19 18 31 21
2010 17.6 21.8 29 23 18 8
2009 29.4 19.5 2 5 10 6
2008 23.7 20.8 12 17 13 6
2007 22.8 19.4 15 13 12 20
2006 17.6 20.4 26 23 14 8
2004 19.1 21.5 19 25 19 21
2005 25.3 24.7 6 4 26 28
Oh stats, yummy! And hey look at that, 2004 came after 2005, I never knew
. I'm more surprised about the 2008-2010 range for the defense. That has to be because of our stellar run defense during that period because I can't remember the last time our pass defense was even average. It seems like we've been playing prevent for the past decade.
Defensive ranks:
Code: Select all
passing (YPG) rushing (YPG)
2013 31st (287.2) 16th (110.4)
2012 24th (244.3) 11th (105.8)
2011 26th (251.2) 11th (107.0)
2010 9th (210.4) 9th (102.2)
2009 19th (218.4) 2nd (87.1)
2008 18th (215.6) 1st (76.9)
2007 32nd (264.1) 1st (74.1)
2006 32nd (238.6) 1st (61.6)
2005 22nd (208.3) 19th (115.1)
2004 29th (243.5) 21st (125.4)
Nope, I guess our pass defense was ok in the 2008-2010 range. Not great, but not historically bad either xD. 2011 though, sheeez what a train wreck our pass defense was that year. We went an NFL record 9 consecutive games without an interception and we made Tebow look like Brady.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:23 pm
by Mothman
DKSweets wrote:I have to disagree with the assessment that Frazier's scheme wasn't poor. At no point in his tenure did I ever feel like we stood a good chance against an elite QB unless we had 5+ sacks on the day and constant pressure. Our coverage was always poor; the only strength of our defense was strong personnel on the line.
Elite QBs tend to do well against almost every defense. That's how they become elite.
II just don't think it's possible to finish ranked in the upper half of the league in fewest points allowed with a poor scheme, which is why I say the scheme itself wasn't poor. However, I'm not going to delve deeply into that debate. I've been down that road enough. The Vikes have a new coach and a new scheme.
And the way he played our DEs made our linebackers have to be extra vigilant in run support, which compounded our pass defending woes.
What defensive scheme doesn't ask LBs to be vigilant in run defense?
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:42 pm
by DK Sweets
EXTRA vigilant.
As in, our linebackers seemed to always be pressed towards the line to prevent the possible run, even when we really needed them further down the field to play pass first.
Re: Preseason Wk#4 Vikings at Titans Game Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:21 pm
by Mothman
DKSweets wrote:EXTRA vigilant.
As in, our linebackers seemed to always be pressed towards the line to prevent the possible run, even when we really needed them further down the field to play pass first.
Ah... I didn't really see it that way but thanks for clarifying.