Vikings Message Board.Com

King James wrote:

Yes, I forgot. When he's not throw passes to Mike Evans, he's making crap passes such as the one in the video above, but still gets in completed by some miracle. This play alone describes what Manziel is all about. Sick play but I doubt he will do crap like this in the NFL level.

You sound bitter that he rolled your tide!

Texas Vike wrote: You sound bitter that he rolled your tide!

Not bitter at all considering as Bama won this game and has championships unlike Little Johnny. I liked him in college but I don't think he will translate well into the NFL.

dead_poet wrote: I love how people who do not like Manziel point to this play specifically as a reason why they believe he's overrated and will be unsuccessful and justify it like this is the only pass he ever throws. It's like if I posted this video every time and use it as evidence every Manziel pass will be a deep, perfectly-placed 95-yard touchdown bomb (thrown from the pocket).

That's nothing. His bailout, Mike Evans, was wide open as usual. So that was a no-brainer throw. Not once did I question his arm strength.




Mind the low quality. But this right here is a real deep throw. You can guess who the QB is but this man threw it deep while the WR was draped by two defenders. This is not an easy throw. Many QBs can throw deep, so what's your point. And this play is nicer than that play to Mike Evans that JFB threw.

King James wrote:That's nothing. His bailout, Mike Evans, was wide open as usual.

Are you kidding? Wide open? He had a step on the defender and Manziel placed it perfectly without Evans having to break stride.

Mind the low quality. But this right here is a real deep throw. You can guess who the QB is but this man threw it deep while the WR was draped by two defenders.

Mind the low quality of the quarterback? Ok.

I'd argue the receiver was more open and Evans in the above clip. And the reason he may have been "draped by two defenders" was that McCarron threw it a tad late. Stop it at :13 and look at the ridiculous separation the receiver has on the corner & safety. "Draped by two defenders"? Sorry, dude, I don't know what you're smoking.

Many QBs can throw deep, so what's your point.

The POINT is that Manziel doesn't just toss jump-balls, which is what you seem to be asserting.

And this play is nicer than that play to Mike Evans that JFB threw.

Incredibly subjective. I don't know the context of the game you posted but A&M was down by 14 with 8:20 left in the game against the top ranked team in college football. This play was on third-and-nine from A&M's five yard line.

On the Miracle compeletion: have you watched Russel Wilson play? Many of his completions are plays where he scrambles out of the pocket and then makes an improvised play that looks like had as much to do with it as anything else. Yet the guy makes plays like this consistently enough that you start wonder if it is really luck?

Can Manziel be that guy too? I do not know, but just because he gets lucky doesn't make him a bad QB.

The big question for a young QB IMO is if he can learn to walk the fine line between taking smart risks vs. being a turnover machine. Russel Wilson walks this line with grace. With a guy like Manziel my first question would be whether or not he can do it as well.

dead_poet wrote:
Are you kidding? Wide open? He had a step on the defender and Manziel placed it perfectly without Evans having to break stride.

I still think it's more of Mike Evans that it is JFB. Mike Evans is a beast, it doesn't matter where he places the ball. If he gets a step over you and makes the catch, he's gone.

Mind the low quality of the quarterback? Ok.

I'd argue the receiver was more open and Evans in the above clip. And the reason he may have been "draped by two defenders" was that McCarron threw it a tad late. Stop it at :13 and look at the ridiculous separation the receiver has on the corner & safety. "Draped by two defenders"? Sorry, dude, I don't know what you're smoking.

McCarron threw it late??????? The ball landed perfectly in his hands where the defenders had no chance to defend the pass. Face the fact that McCarron can still own defenders when they are doubling on a WR. Had that been JFB, he would most likely elect to run like always or throw some circus miracle pass again, hoping his WR will catch it.

The POINT is that Manziel doesn't just toss jump-balls, which is what you seem to be asserting.

Obviously you haven't seen enough of Manziel. You're just going off highlights and stats you probably pulled off the internet. I'm not saying all he throws is jump balls but he has thrown PLENTY. That's why I call Evans his bailout because Evans has that ability to go up like Megatron and still make the catch.

Incredibly subjective. I don't know the context of the game you posted but A&M was down by 14 with 8:20 left in the game against the top ranked team in college football. This play was on third-and-nine from A&M's five yard line.

Are you kidding me?????? This was the Iron Bowl game against the eventually #2 team Auburn. Auburn wasn't #1 but they were damn sure good last season and almost won another championship. This play was on the freaking one yard line because Auburn fielded the punt there. Don't remember the exact time of the clock but it was in the 4th quarter and it gave Bama a temporary lead over Auburn. Not to mention it was also the ONLY play Bama ran that particular drive. There was another play in the 3rd quarter and Auburn had Bama pinned down at their own 2 yard line and McCarron bombed one for 50 yards.

King James wrote:I still think it's more of Mike Evans that it is JFB. Mike Evans is a beast, it doesn't matter where he places the ball. If he gets a step over you and makes the catch, he's gone.

That's fine. My stance is they make each other better.

McCarron threw it late??????? The ball landed perfectly in his hands where the defenders had no chance to defend the pass.

If you watch it again you'll see the receiver has to slow down to make the play, which actually gave the safety more time. Perhaps he didn't throw it late, but it's just he didn't have enough arm on the ball.

Face the fact that McCarron can still own defenders when they are doubling on a WR.

How is this doubling a WR? The receiver owned the corner and created an incredible amount of separation and the safety was late in getting there. That's not the definition of double coverage.

Had that been JFB, he would most likely elect to run like always or throw some circus miracle pass again, hoping his WR will catch it.

I JUST posted a video where Manziel did the exact same thing as McCarron here. Your bias against the kid is glaring (and blinding you).

Obviously you haven't seen enough of Manziel. You're just going off highlights and stats you probably pulled off the internet.

Again, I've watched all his games and several compilations of his throws only. How many games of his have you watched? The claims you're making and conclusions you're spouting do not match what he's put on film.

I'm not saying all he throws is jump balls but he has thrown PLENTY.

You've essentially been implying this is all he does, which is incorrect. I'm not going to argue that he hasn't done it (obviously he has), but he hasn't done it to the extent that many people assert. Not even close. And people seem to forget that it's worked. You're assuming that it won't work in the NFL when plenty of QBs throw balls to good receivers that are "covered." How many times has Stafford done that to Calvin Johnson or Schaub done that with Andre Johnson or Brees to Jimmy Graham or Culpepper to Moss? I will not fault Manziel for his attempts, because he takes chances and he knows his receiver (Evans) will likely come down with the ball. You're assuming A) he's going to a team that does NOT have a #1 receiver capable of doing the things that Evans does and B) Manziel will just toss these passes all over the place regardless of who's on the team and C) he'll throw more incompletions/interceptions because of this. We simply cannot assume either of these.

There's also a distinct difference between "jump balls" and throwing to a receiver that may not be considered "open."

That's why I call Evans his bailout because Evans has that ability to go up like Megatron and still make the catch.

I think that's part of the root of our disagreement. You call Evans a "bailout" where I call him a dominant receiver that Manziel trusts to win contested situations. Is Johnson constantly "bailing out" Stafford? At what point does this "bailing out" argument no longer hold water? And also see my earlier post about the number of yards/touchdowns that went to Evans and how it compares to Manziel's career numbers (I can do completions if you'd like). Evans' receptions/TDs are a small fraction of Manziel's totals.

Are you kidding me?????? This was the Iron Bowl game against the eventually #2 team Auburn. Auburn wasn't #1 but they were damn sure good last season and almost won another championship. This play was on the freaking one yard line because Auburn fielded the punt there. Don't remember the exact time of the clock but it was in the 4th quarter and it gave Bama a temporary lead over Auburn. Not to mention it was also the ONLY play Bama ran that particular drive. There was another play in the 3rd quarter and Auburn had Bama pinned down at their own 2 yard line and McCarron bombed one for 50 yards.

I wasn't aware of this, so thanks for telling me. The situations seem pretty comparable.

isn't a WR's job to bail out QBs by making a catch? Thought that was what they got paid for, but what do I know?

If you watch it again you'll see the receiver has to slow down to make the play, which actually gave the safety more time. Perhaps he didn't throw it late, but it's just he didn't have enough arm on the ball.

It probably had more to do with him throwing off his back foot. I don't know if you're trying to say that McCarron doesn't possess the ability to put enough arm on the ball. I looked at both TD plays. It looks like McCarron threw the ball out as soon as he made his last step. That's how McCarron plays and what makes him special. He throws the ball out before the WR is open because he predicts when the WR is going to be open. Which is why he is no for great timing and rhythm with his WRs. Manziel had like a second or two more to actually set his feet and hit Evans.

Your bias against the kid is glaring (and blinding you).

How am I being biased exactly?

Again, I've watched all his games and several compilations of his throws only. How many games of his have you watched? The claims you're making and conclusions you're spouting do not match what he's put on film.

I watch all of the conference games from SEC, mainly Alabama and Auburn, but I've seen plenty of JFB. People have been on the Texas A&M bandwagon more than ever when he came in and dominated in the SEC. His circus performance playmaking and ability to run around in the pocket to avoid sacks is why he is fun to watch right? Of course I can't recall every single play he has made from memory. All I know is that when he was contained, and other guys couldn't get open, he would often throw up miracles to guys like Evans because he was a great possession WR. A&M had a pretty good WR core last year too. A lot of good WR recruits wanted to go to A&M and play for Mr. Football.

But that's what I remember from little Johnny. A dangerous player if you can't contain him. You won't shut him down but you can get him to throw some bad throws. He's careless with the ball and his body when pressured.

King James wrote:It probably had more to do with him throwing off his back foot. I don't know if you're trying to say that McCarron doesn't possess the ability to put enough arm on the ball.

I'm saying that one of the knocks on McCarron is his lack of arm strength and there's a bit of that showing on this play. Don't get me wrong, it was a good play. The WR did a LOT to help his QB on this one, though (sound familiar?). That route totally baffled the corner.

How am I being biased exactly?

Your comments ("guaranteed bust", "Tebow 2.0", "won't last in the league for 5 years" and such) conclusions do not match the film. You also seem to have had a pretty significant change of heart. I thought you liked him at #8 overall

King James wrote:Unless we can get Bridgewater or Manziel to fall at #8, I would rather us go defense.

I watch all of the conference games from SEC, mainly Alabama and Auburn, but I've seen plenty of JFB. People have been on the Texas A&M bandwagon more than ever when he came in and dominated in the SEC. His circus performance playmaking and ability to run around in the pocket to avoid sacks is why he is fun to watch right? Of course I can't recall every single play he has made from memory. All I know is that when he was contained, and other guys couldn't get open, he would often throw up miracles to guys like Evans because he was a great possession WR. A&M had a pretty good WR core last year too.

You're saying when his receivers are covered he struggled? That's not exactly a revelation. Most quarterbacks struggle when that happens. And it's hard to fault him for throwing it to a covered Mike Evans when he likely has several inch height advantage and often a superior talent to the guy defending him. This is common practice in the NFL with the receiver/QB combos I listed previously. I also think you're focusing way too much on a handful of "miracle throws" to Evans when these represented such a small fraction of his completed passes.

A lot of good WR recruits wanted to go to A&M and play for Mr. Football.

OK? Evans is really the only receiver from the 2013 squad that's expected to be drafted. Derel Walker (#2 receiver) is likely going to be an UDFA.

A dangerous player if you can't contain him. You won't shut him down but you can get him to throw some bad throws. He's careless with the ball and his body when pressured.

Those sound like a lot of positives. Unlike some of our previous QBs that could easily get shut down. Anyone who signs Manziel will have to understand they're going to get the bad with the good (even if they try to coach out a lot of the bad). I don't know if he's going to ever be like a Tom Brady. To me, that'll kill part of what makes him special and there's no guarantee he's even physically capable of doing that. I do hope his pocket presence continues to trend in the right direction as it did from last season to this one.

It'll be interesting to follow his career. Here's hoping if we select him he'll be as electric in Minnesota as he was in Texas.

dead_poet wrote:If you watch it again you'll see the receiver has to slow down to make the play, which actually gave the safety more time. Perhaps he didn't throw it late, but it's just he didn't have enough arm on the ball.

That's what it looks like to me. I don't think he threw it late. He just under-threw it a little.

How am I being biased exactly?

You showed two videos of exactly the same play, viewed one as the quarterback made the play and the other the receiver bailed out the quarterback. The plays are almost identical so if you say Mike Evans bailed out Johnny you must say Amari Cooper bailed out AJ McCarron.

You also said you watched plenty of johnny's games so I'm assuming you know how bad there defense was? Did you ever think Johnny is forced to take risks to win games because he can't just sit back and let his defense and running game with dominant offensive line win games. That brings me to why i don't like A.J. McCarron, you say Mike Evans bails out Johnny... Bama's whole team bails out AJ McCarron. If there was a time for him to show how dominant he is it would be behind that line against college players, but instead he simply managed games. When the talent level is equaled in the NFL he will be average at best. and I'm curious are you so sure of McCarron you would take him in the first round? and say Johnny Manziel somehow fell to the 3rd where McCarron is projected are you so sure Manziel will bust you would still take McCarron? or is it a risk/reward evaluation based on round taken?

Loki wrote: You showed two videos of exactly the same play, viewed one as the quarterback made the play and the other the receiver bailed out the quarterback. The plays are almost identical so if you say Mike Evans bailed out Johnny you must say Amari Cooper bailed out AJ McCarron.

You also said you watched plenty of johnny's games so I'm assuming you know how bad there defense was? Did you ever think Johnny is forced to take risks to win games because he can't just sit back and let his defense and running game with dominant offensive line win games. That brings me to why i don't like A.J. McCarron, you say Mike Evans bails out Johnny... Bama's whole team bails out AJ McCarron. If there was a time for him to show how dominant he is it would be behind that line against college players, but instead he simply managed games.

It seems to me that he just played within the framework of the offense and within a strategy that proved very successful for him and the team. You seem to imply that he should have broken out of that framework, regardless of what he was being asked to do, so that he could strut his stuff and showcase his ability to dominate. Why should he be punished for playing smart, effective football?

Mothman wrote:

It seems to me that he just played within the framework of the offense and within a strategy that proved very successful for him and the team. You seem to imply that he should have broken out of that framework, regardless of what he was being asked to do, so that he could strut his stuff and showcase his ability to dominate. Why should he be punished for playing smart, effective football?

I don't think he should be punished, but when evaluating a player who isn't asked to do as much as other players, you need to ask yourself why that is. What is AJ McCarron's ceiling? Can he be a franchise type QB, or is he going to struggle when a team asks him to do more than what was asked of him at Alabama? We've seen that he can manage a game, but what if the team around him is not playing their best, can McCarron lift his own game to make up for the team's struggles in other areas?

To me it's kind of a question of whether McCarron is Andy Dalton or Russell Wilson. Both QBs this year played similar roles, their teams relied on a strong running game, great defense and an efficient passing game. However, in the instances where the pressure was turned on the QB, Wilson stepped up and played very well when more was asked of him. On the flip side, when more was asked of Andy Dalton, he struggled, turning the ball over and hurting the team.

Building a balanced team is important, but a part of that is that when one aspect of the team is struggling, the other side must be able to elevate their game. And the question becomes if McCarron has the ability to elevate the passing game if the running game or defense is having an off day.

Mothman wrote: It seems to me that he just played within the framework of the offense and within a strategy that proved very successful for him and the team. You seem to imply that he should have broken out of that framework, regardless of what he was being asked to do, so that he could strut his stuff and showcase his ability to dominate. Why should he be punished for playing smart, effective football?

I get what you're saying and it was meant more in the context of Contrast with Johnny Manziel. Johnny isn't asked to do the things he does, he could simply throw a checkdown or throw the ball out of bounds when a play breaks down but he has the mentality to never let a play die. The same as Fran Tarkenton had. I also wonder why McCarron was asked to play the same role as other QB's who were sub-par. It Seems Like if he is the QB he's made out to be more would be put on his shoulders. In the end its less of a knock on McCarron as it is a praise on Manziel in contrast. McCarron doesn't have that fire in him to be considered the best QB, Manziel wants to dominate defenses and be considered one of the best all time.