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VikingLord wrote:I see Teo as an above-average player who has been seriously hyped up. Based on what I expect him to do during the pre-draft evaluations, I bet his numbers don't come in better than average for the players at his position. Normally, a guy like that at his position would be looking at the 3rd-4th round.

I'd gladly take that bet. I've seen Teo play since high school, well before the hype and current scandal.

VikingLord wrote: I'm not so sure about that. Teo was productive at Notre Dame, but his stock might have been influenced a bit by his team going undefeated and some of the hype surrounding him, most of it created by Notre Dame itself. When Teo runs at the Combine or his pro day, don't be surprised if his results suggest a much lower round grade than the hype would indicate. Also, his performance against the Tide left a lot to be desired as well. He was really exposed in a way few future NFL stars are against college competition. Granted, Alabama isn't your uncle's college team in terms of talent, but Teo was really steamrolled, and not just once, but repeatedly. I would hope he could have won a few of the battles in that game, but I didn't see it.

I see Teo as an above-average player who has been seriously hyped up. Based on what I expect him to do during the pre-draft evaluations, I bet his numbers don't come in better than average for the players at his position. Normally, a guy like that at his position would be looking at the 3rd-4th round.

Of course, everything is relative, but if the Vikes do take him at #23 I will consider it a reach, and not just based on the hoax or even what happened against Alabama, but just what I think he's going to bring to the field at the pro level.

If the Vikes do go MLB at #23, a guy like Alec Ogletree makes much more sense. Get a guy with range who can cover in a Tampa 2. Ogletree would be able to do that. Teo is going to be a guy in the Brinkley mode, although maybe not even as good at stopping the run as Brinkley.

Ogletree isn't a MLB, he's a WLB, he's too small to play MLB in the NFL. He's definitely more athletic than Teo and will post much better numbers than Teo, but unless you missed the Alabama/Georgia game, the same thing that happened to Teo in the National Championship happened to Ogletree and the Georgia Bulldogs in the SEC championship game. Alabama ran for over 300 yards against Georgia.

Me personally, I've watched Teo play all year and it's a person's full body of work not just one game that makes or breaks them. I think he got too caught up into the hype of playing for Notre Dame, playing in the national championship and all the accolades he received and or was nominated for and it got to his head and he wasn't there for the Alabama game. I hope this is a humbling experience for him regardless of whether he comes to the Vikings or not. I personally don't think he'll make it to the Vikings, I think the Bears will take him as a replacement to Urlacher but that's just my personal opinion.

As far as him being a 3rd or 4th round projection, I think that's a bit ridiculous. If he runs "average" at the combine I think he'll still be a 1st round pick. Most draft experts have him in the first round at least and even if he does drop, he won't go past the second round.

VikingLord wrote:I'm not so sure about that. Teo was productive at Notre Dame, but his stock might have been influenced a bit by his team going undefeated and some of the hype surrounding him, most of it created by Notre Dame itself.

I don't know about that. I thought Notre Dame earned their hype in 2012. They weren't just hyped because they were Notre Dame. They went into the season unranked and finished undefeated after facing some tough competition. Their defense led the way for them and T'eo was the leader of that defense and a strong performer. If his stock was influenced by the success his team had, it was also influenced by the fact that he was a leader and key performer on that team.

When Teo runs at the Combine or his pro day, don't be surprised if his results suggest a much lower round grade than the hype would indicate. Also, his performance against the Tide left a lot to be desired as well. He was really exposed in a way few future NFL stars are against college competition. Granted, Alabama isn't your uncle's college team in terms of talent, but Teo was really steamrolled, and not just once, but repeatedly. I would hope he could have won a few of the battles in that game, but I didn't see it.

I've seen good NFL LBs steamrolled in games too so I wouldn't read too much into it. Because Alabama isn't your uncle's college team in terms of talent, they may also have brought a level of talent T'eo wasn't prepared to face because he hadn't really faced it before. We all know that when players come to the NFL there's a period of adjustment as they get used to the speed of the game and the size and strength of some of their opponents. They usually work to get stronger too so even though T'eo had a rough outing against Alabama, it doesn't mean that game represents his ceiling. Like many players, he may be capable of adjusting and excelling at the next level once he has the experience and coaching to help him do so.

I see Teo as an above-average player who has been seriously hyped up. Based on what I expect him to do during the pre-draft evaluations, I bet his numbers don't come in better than average for the players at his position. Normally, a guy like that at his position would be looking at the 3rd-4th round.

Based on measurables? I doubt it because production matters and his combine measurables will be considered along with his production. He'd have to perform at a level radically below expectations at the combine to be considered a 3rd or 4th round player. Remember, this guy was considered by many to be a first round prospect after the 2011 season, before Notre Dame's heavily-hyped undefeated season in 2012.

Of course, everything is relative, but if the Vikes do take him at #23 I will consider it a reach, and not just based on the hoax or even what happened against Alabama, but just what I think he's going to bring to the field at the pro level.

You might consider it a reach but considering that he's ben viewed as a first round-caliber talent for a long time, you'll probably be in the minority.

If the Vikes do go MLB at #23, a guy like Alec Ogletree makes much more sense. Get a guy with range who can cover in a Tampa 2. Ogletree would be able to do that. Teo is going to be a guy in the Brinkley mode, although maybe not even as good at stopping the run as Brinkley.

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Ogletree would have better range in coverage but if you're concerned about LBs getting steamrolled, he's arguably a riskier prospect than T'eo, especially if he were to play inside. Of course, they both offer upside and downside, but Ogletree's 4 game suspension for reportedly violating Georgia's drug policy is a red flag that deserves attention, especially since my understanding is that the school reserves 4 game suspensions for players who have tested positive a second time.

S197 wrote: I'd gladly take that bet. I've seen Teo play since high school, well before the hype and current scandal.

You think his 40 time and other measurables are going to come in above average at the Combine?

MrPurplenGold wrote: Ogletree isn't a MLB, he's a WLB, he's too small to play MLB in the NFL. He's definitely more athletic than Teo and will post much better numbers than Teo, but unless you missed the Alabama/Georgia game, the same thing that happened to Teo in the National Championship happened to Ogletree and the Georgia Bulldogs in the SEC championship game. Alabama ran for over 300 yards against Georgia.

Ogletree is listed as an inside backer in every pre-draft website or forum I've looked at.

The difference between the two is Ogletree can cover. In fact, his range and ability to cover are his primary strengths.

I'm just matching up skillset with scheme when I say he makes more sense for a Tampa 2 defense that requires the MLB to cover.

Lastly, if Teo can't do better against an offense like Alabama than Ogletree, and he's not as good in coverage as Ogletree, how is it he makes more sense at #23 than Ogletree if all else is equal, especially for defensive scheme like the one the Vikings run?

Mothman wrote: Ogletree would have better range in coverage but if you're concerned about LBs getting steamrolled, he's arguably a riskier prospect than T'eo, especially if he were to play inside. Of course, they both offer upside and downside, but Ogletree's 4 game suspension for reportedly violating Georgia's drug policy is a red flag that deserves attention, especially since my understanding is that the school reserves 4 game suspensions for players who have tested positive a second time.

Arguably riskier, but not necessarily riskier. ASFAIK, both got steamrolled against the run by Alabama, so it's hard to argue that Teo is really a lower risk in that regard.

The suspension is a concern, but in most mocks I've seen Ogletree is going at or before #23 despite that. Hard to say how this will impact his draft stock or how the Vikings see him. What I do know is that his skillset fits the defense Frazier wants to run better than Teo does. If the Vikes spend #23 on Teo, they are essentially re-drafting Jasper Brinkley IMHO.

VikingLord wrote: You think his 40 time and other measurables are going to come in above average at the Combine?

I think so, he won't be a combine freak by any means but he should be above average in his times, especially against other Mike's. I guess we'll find out in a couple of months.

VikingLord wrote:Arguably riskier, but not necessarily riskier. ASFAIK, both got steamrolled against the run by Alabama, so it's hard to argue that Teo is really a lower risk in that regard.

You're focusing way too much on one game, Edward.

The suspension is a concern, but in most mocks I've seen Ogletree is going at or before #23 despite that. Hard to say how this will impact his draft stock or how the Vikings see him. What I do know is that his skillset fits the defense Frazier wants to run better than Teo does. If the Vikes spend #23 on Teo, they are essentially re-drafting Jasper Brinkley IMHO.

I'd say that's a stretch. T'eo is a better prospect than Brinkley was...

The defense Frazier wants to run involves obviously stopping the run and the pass and neither Ogletree or T'eo is incompetent against either. Ogletree is better in coverage but T'eo is better against the run. Ogletree is built like a big safety, not a middle linebacker. If he can bulk up enough to play inside in the NFL, he may prove to be the better pick for the position but I think he probably projects as an outside LB in the Vikings scheme, not an inside 'backer and if that's the case, his ability to cover from the MLB position becomes less of a factor when comparing him to T'eo.

For what it's worth:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/ ... id=2540143

It is tough to question Ogletree's athleticism at the linebacker position. Just watching him close on runs or swing passes on the edge is worth the price of admission. Despite playing the last two years at inside linebacker in the Bulldogs 3-4 defense, it would not be surprising to see Ogletree make the switch to weakside linebacker in a defense that uses a four man front. The reason being is the junior struggles to get over top of blocks but does his best work chasing and closing. Expect the Bulldog to be a three down player if he cuts down on wasted steps. Since Ogletree is expected to impress in workouts, expect him to be a top-50 selection.

The same profile also says:

WEAKNESSES Rarely uses hands to fight with blockers despite an aggressive mentality. Overruns a lot of plays between the tackles, struggles to recover. Has a lot of issues dealing with second level blocks from the offensive line, rarely can work over top of them, there winds up walled off. Run and chase player at this point, loses gap integrity with false or wasted steps. Dives or lunges for a lot of tackles rather than running through them and wrapping up. Mentality changes when attacking an offensive lineman compared to a running back.

I'm not sure Ogletree would be a good fit at all as the MLB in the Vikings scheme

Of course he wouldn't. Super Bowl cover 2s have covering machines. We get EJ and Brinkley. Can see where the focus is here.

Never seen linebackers turn their back to the line of scrimmage before wildly pawing at balls right over their heads to receivers they were responsible for more then our middle linebackers!!! (When the QB doesn't under throw it and hit them in the ####!!!)

VikingLord wrote:If the Vikes spend #23 on Teo, they are essentially re-drafting Jasper Brinkley IMHO.

Wow. We see the guy pretty differently. I'm not saying he's Ray Lewis, but I think he'd represent a pretty sizable upgrade from Brinkley almost across the board. His coverage skills are pretty solid from what I've seen/read (unlike Brinkley). His instincts, awareness, leadership and athleticism are superior as well.

Further, Te'o is the most decorated defensive player in college football history. During college football's annual award's night, Te'o was honored with a record six trophies on the night, the most of any player and the most ever collected in one night by a college football player. Te'o's record haul broke former Michigan Wolverines star Charles Woodson's record of five awards, set in 1997.

2012 Awards

2012 Bronko Nagurski Award
2012 Chuck Bednarik Award
2012 Consensus All-America
2012 Dick Butkus Award
2012 Maxwell Award
2012 Ronnie Lott Trophy
2012 Vince Lombardi Award
2012 Walter Camp Player of the Year Award
2nd Heisman voting

Sophomore year was 3rd in the country in solo tackles at the position, junior year he was first and senior year second. Assisted tackles sophomore (1st), junior (1st), senior (2nd); total tackles: sophomore (first), junior (first), senior (2nd); TFL: sophomore (6th), junior (2nd), senior (4th); passes defended: senior (2nd); interceptions: senior (1st). Te’o's 7 interceptions are the highest number of interceptions by a linebacker of the last twelve years. His 427 total tackles in his four-year career at Notre Dame ranks third all-time in school history.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla ... teo-1.html

He'll be understandably criticized for his game against Alabama, but before that game Notre Dame's toughest then-ranked opponents — Michigan State, Michigan, Stanford and Oklahoma — he totaled 42 tackles and three interceptions. The four teams combined for 35 points. Each had its worst scoring game of the season.

Granted Brinkely was coming off a couple of injuries, but I don't see how they're even close.

Mothman wrote: You're focusing way too much on one game, Edward.

It's one game, but the opponent was common and the result similar. The contention that Ogletree is a worse run defender because he's lighter is called into question by that. That's my point.

Mothman wrote: I'm not sure Ogletree would be a good fit at all as the MLB in the Vikings scheme, although that doesn't mean I'd be unhappy if the Vikes drafted him. I think he could be a real upgrade at WLB..

Well, at least we agree on that point.

I just think the 1st round is where you grab guys who hit home runs. Guys who can alter how the opposing team plays. Ogletree strikes me more as that kind of player than Teo, and while I understand the Alabama game might be over-weighted in this discussion, I think it shows that. Teo was no more an impediment to Alabama than Ogletree when it came to defending the run. Teo didn't force Bama to do anything different at all. In fact, they ran and threw right at him all game. Difference makers generally get more respect than that even when they have an "off" game.

There is no doubt a lot of love on this board for Teo, and I could be very wrong about him, but he doesn't strike me as a 1st round prospect in terms of his ability to impact the pro game. He's a lot like Tim Tebow IMHO. A great college player who enjoyed success playing at that level, but who lacks the type of outstanding characteristics that will enable him to do the same in the pros. I'm not saying he'll flop in the NFL. More than likely he'll have some success and maybe even turn into a very good player. I'm just saying I think the Vikes can do better at #23, and if I had to wager which of Teo or Ogletree is going to have the bigger impact in the pros I'll take Ogletree because of his outstanding range and ability to impact the passing game. In fact, for that reason alone I will be surprised if Teo goes before Ogletree whether the team that drafts him is looking to improve it's WLB or MLB position.

VikingLord wrote: Ogletree is listed as an inside backer in every pre-draft website or forum I've looked at.

The difference between the two is Ogletree can cover. In fact, his range and ability to cover are his primary strengths.

I'm just matching up skillset with scheme when I say he makes more sense for a Tampa 2 defense that requires the MLB to cover.

Lastly, if Teo can't do better against an offense like Alabama than Ogletree, and he's not as good in coverage as Ogletree, how is it he makes more sense at #23 than Ogletree if all else is equal, especially for defensive scheme like the one the Vikings run?

That's because he played ILB in Georgia's 3-4 Scheme. He's a 6'3" 237 lbs, small for a MLB in a 4-3 scheme. Unless he packed on some weight for the combine I think he's too small to play MLB. There are ILB's in the NFL that are that weight but they are shorter with a much more compact frame.

What makes you think he has great coverage skills? Throughout 2012 he had 1 interception and 4 total passes defended. Manti Teo had 7 int's and 4 PD.

Also, Alec Ogletree has not played an Entire Season the entire time he was at Georgia due to injuries and suspensions, Manti Teo has not missed a game.

VikingLord wrote: I just think the 1st round is where you grab guys who hit home runs.

How is Ogletree a home run hitter? In 3 years at Georgia he's had 6 sacks and 1 turnover

Ogletree isn't a 4-3 MLB period. He's never played the position and his skill set/measurables don't translate to the position. If a 4-3 defense decides to draft him, he will almost certainly be moved outside to WLB.

VikingLord wrote:I just think the 1st round is where you grab guys who hit home runs. Guys who can alter how the opposing team plays. Ogletree strikes me more as that kind of player than Teo, and while I understand the Alabama game might be over-weighted in this discussion, I think it shows that. Teo was no more an impediment to Alabama than Ogletree when it came to defending the run. Teo didn't force Bama to do anything different at all. In fact, they ran and threw right at him all game.

That's often how teams deal with difference-makers at LB or on the d-line because it can make a "downhill" player less aggressive. Again, it was one game in a college career that was, for the most part, outstanding.

There is no doubt a lot of love on this board for Teo, and I could be very wrong about him, but he doesn't strike me as a 1st round prospect in terms of his ability to impact the pro game.

I don't love him. It just seems like you're overreacting to the performance against Alabama and all the hype about a great college player and going too far in the other direction. Nobody ever knows with certainty how a college player will perform in the NFL but to suggest that Te'o is essentially another Brinkley or that he's a 3rd or 4th round talent that's been hyped up into a first round talent seems a bit extreme considering the nature of his career. He was a top prospect at LB coming out of high school who performed like a top level LB in college and was highly decorated for his performance. Other than a sub-par game against Alabama, what about Te'o's career strongly suggests he isn't a first round talent?

He's a lot like Tim Tebow IMHO. A great college player who enjoyed success playing at that level, but who lacks the type of outstanding characteristics that will enable him to do the same in the pros.

What characteristics is he lacking? He's shown leadership and has proven to be an instinctive, physical defender who defends well against the run or the pass. He lacks elite LB speed but he's built and plays like a true MLB. He's a strong tackler and he's shown the ability to fight through blocks and make big plays. If he's missing anything it may be the height and speed to stay with some of the better NFL TEs.

I get what you're saying about trying to hit home runs in the first round but I see nothing about Te'o that suggests he's any less likely to be a "home run" pick than Ogletree or any other LB in this draft.

I'm not saying he'll flop in the NFL. More than likely he'll have some success and maybe even turn into a very good player. I'm just saying I think the Vikes can do better at #23, and if I had to wager which of Teo or Ogletree is going to have the bigger impact in the pros I'll take Ogletree because of his outstanding range and ability to impact the passing game. In fact, for that reason alone I will be surprised if Teo goes before Ogletree whether the team that drafts him is looking to improve it's WLB or MLB position.

I guess that's where we differ. Te'o is the better MLB prospect and Ogletree is the better OLB prospect and I suspect 4-3 NFL teams will see it the same way. A 3-4 team might not. Anyway, I'm betting how they're used and where they land in the pros will be huge factors in which player has the bigger impact. I'd have no problem with the Vikes drafting either of them but if they select Ogletree, I think he needs to play outside. They both have the potential to be outstanding.