Vikings Message Board.Com

James: Instant and prolonged impact players generally come from picks 1-10. It becomes more and more rare the further down you get. And I don't know what qualities you think I listed that made Shariff a 2nd-4th round pick, because I said nothing about Floyd's qualities.

You're claim is heavily based on assumption and misunderstaing. There are many "projects" that get taken early simply because teams don't want to miss out on the talent level a player possesses and wants to benefit when they put it all together. Happens all the time. Floyd was presumed to be a top 15 pick and depending who you llistened to, some had Floyd as the best DT in the draft. When a player that has talent slips like that, you take him because of the high ceiling that player has.

In the Vikings case, they got him on the field sparingly and he certainly showed flashes. Those flashes were seen become of the impact he had on the play. Unfortunately, for Floyd, Frazier felt less the need to play Shariff as the season wore on, it seemed. However, when he was on the field...He had an impact. Their personnel just didn't dictate his playing time according to Frazier. Patterson and Rhodes dealt with the same thing, but for one, their impacts are more apparent because of the positions they play, but two, they received more opportunity eventually.

mrc44 wrote:It's called poor Coaching decisions. Floyd barely played at all. If you look at his stat, based on the amount of time he was on the field, he died just as well as K Will.

Stats alone are a terrible way to measure the effectiveness of a defensive tackle. When watching the games, I think it's pretty difficult to make a case that Floyd out-played Kevin Williams last year and as I was just saying in another thread, when you essentially say a coach's job is on the line if he doesn't make the playoffs, you're encouraging him to go with veterans he trusts and who know his system over rookies. In a case like Williams and Floyd, when you consider how long Frazier had worked with the former, what Williams has accomplished over the years, and what was at stake, the choice probably seemed like a no-brainer.

It was his rookie season and our coaching staff was too stupid to figure out how to get him on the field.

I am getting so tired of seeing shots like this. Pondering her Percy referred to Frazier as a "joke of a coach" above for only playing Floyd 34% of the defensive snaps last year and I wasn't going to comment but your remark pushed me over the edge. Yeah, yeah, I know I'm an "apologist" but what the heck did Floyd do last year to indicate that it was stupid to not get him on the field more and that Frazier was a "joke" for not doing so? I'm not in King James' corner on this at all but I also didn't see anything from Floyd last year to suggest he was superior to Kevin Williams.

Melton reportedly going to Cowboys

There goes Melton. I guess we're stuck with the bust.

Seriously, I can't wait to see how Floyd looks in Zimmer's defense.

Mothman wrote: In the summer, you were complaining because Floyd was one of the "best two tackles" on the team and you were angry that Frazier wasn't going to start him next to Kevin Williams. Now Floyd was a "reach" and he's a liability? Oy vey...

That elephant like memory must earn you lots of points with the mrs.

I didn't think Floyd did that good last year, you can go back and look at my posts, I was hard on him. I was also hard on Rhodes. I mean the guy used to tackle the WR at the LoS. But he turned into, what I believe, is going to be a good CB. I was hoping for Verner (which is why when I first heard they might spend a lot on Melton I wasn't too happy, I wanted them to pay Verner whatever he wanted...a 5'8'' corner just doesn't get me as excited as a true outside corner).

If Rhodes made that much diference in 1 season Floyd, (I call him Mr close cause he was always so close to making a play) should be decent by mid season. I think the Vikings D will be in good shape. The O, well, Im not so sure of that. But I am sure Norv is the man for the job. And if he want a big arm that we can get late in the draft, Zack M is his guy.

saint33 wrote:how many 1st round players came in and made an immediate impact last season? Hell, how many top 10 players did? There is no rule that states that 1st round picks need to start and have an immediate impact in their first year. Aaron Rodgers didn't play for 3 years and he turned out pretty good. Let's stop jumping to conclusions with insufficient data

This is exactly what I was about to say Saint. We definitely think a lot alike! Let's look at the 1st round DT's/NT's over the past few years and what they did in their FIRST year compared to now:

2011
Marcell Dareus- 3rd overall, elite DT and made an immediate impact
Nick Fairley- 13th overall, did next to nothing and is a legitimate DT now
Phil Taylor- 21st overall, had a decent rookie year and has been decent since


2012
Dontari Poe- 11th overall, below average his rookie year and is now a very solid player
Fletcher Cox- 12th overall, decent rookie year and has been decent since
Michael Brockers- 14th overall, average to below average rookie year, improved last year


2013
Sheldon Richardson- 13th overall, exploded his rookie year
Star Lotuleiei- 14th overall, had a average rookie year at best
Shariff Floyd- 23rd overall, had limited snaps but was still able to make plays in the limited time he received.
Sylvester Williams- 28th overall, similar to Floyd and got limited reps but showed some playmaking ability in a small window


POINT IS..... It is VERY rare for a rookie defensive tackle to make an immediate impact (only ones to do it in 3 years were Dareus and Richardson). Rookies that were drafted in 2011 and 2012, for the most part, made significant gains the following year in the league and had a significant snap increase. As others have stated, it is much more difficult for rookie DT's to "blow up" their rookie year than it is for other positions.

I just don't understand why people keep saying they saw Floyd do next to nothing. Were you missing the pass rush that he brought at times, the penetration and explosiveness he had at the LOS, the sack/fumble he caused. Mind you this was in 34% OF SNAPS!

If I told you guys at the beginning of the year that Shariff Floyd would play ~34% of snaps, what would you honestly expect out of him?? 8 sacks? 3 FF? I mean I just don't understand how anyone can possibly call this guy a bust when he has had such limited time in his ROOKIE season. As I said above, it is very rare for a DT to explode in their first season.

If Zimmer was THAT concerned about Floyd, I'm sure we would have pursued Melton a lot harder than we did or we would have made a harder push for another DT. That's not the case. It was simply that our FO knew what Melton was capable of and would rather have him rotating with Floyd rather than some bum. It would have made our defensive line THAT much better than it already is.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: This is exactly what I was about to say Saint. We definitely think a lot alike! Let's look at the 1st round DT's/NT's over the past few years and what they did in their FIRST year compared to now:

2011
Marcell Dareus- 3rd overall, elite DT and made an immediate impact
Nick Fairley- 13th overall, did next to nothing and is a legitimate DT now
Phil Taylor- 21st overall, had a decent rookie year and has been decent since


2012
Dontari Poe- 11th overall, below average his rookie year and is now a very solid player
Fletcher Cox- 12th overall, decent rookie year and has been decent since
Michael Brockers- 14th overall, average to below average rookie year, improved last year


2013
Sheldon Richardson- 13th overall, exploded his rookie year
Star Lotuleiei- 14th overall, had a average rookie year at best
Shariff Floyd- 23rd overall, had limited snaps but was still able to make plays in the limited time he received.
Sylvester Williams- 28th overall, similar to Floyd and got limited reps but showed some playmaking ability in a small window


POINT IS..... It is VERY rare for a rookie defensive tackle to make an immediate impact (only ones to do it in 3 years were Dareus and Richardson). Rookies that were drafted in 2011 and 2012, for the most part, made significant gains the following year in the league and had a significant snap increase. As others have stated, it is much more difficult for rookie DT's to "blow up" their rookie year than it is for other positions.

I just don't understand why people keep saying they saw Floyd do next to nothing. Were you missing the pass rush that he brought at times, the penetration and explosiveness he had at the LOS, the sack/fumble he caused. Mind you this was in 34% OF SNAPS!

If I told you guys at the beginning of the year that Shariff Floyd would play ~34% of snaps, what would you honestly expect out of him?? 8 sacks? 3 FF? I mean I just don't understand how anyone can possibly call this guy a bust when he has had such limited time in his ROOKIE season. As I said above, it is very rare for a DT to explode in their first season.

If Zimmer was THAT concerned about Floyd, I'm sure we would have pursued Melton a lot harder than we did or we would have made a harder push for another DT. That's not the case. It was simply that our FO knew what Melton was capable of and would rather have him rotating with Floyd rather than some bum. It would have made our defensive line THAT much better than it already is.

Excellent post and don't anyone imagine that this team is done with the interior DL. I could even see them picking up Nix maybe trading back up to do so in the early second round.

Purple bruise wrote:
Excellent post and don't anyone imagine that this team is done with the interior DL.

Thsnks PB And yes, you're right. There is still nobody behind Floyd so they need to add depth their either way.

Mothman wrote: In the summer, you were complaining because Floyd was one of the "best two tackles" on the team and you were angry that Frazier wasn't going to start him next to Kevin Williams. Now Floyd was a "reach" and he's a liability? Oy vey...

At one point many though Ponder was going to be a franchise player for us. And what happened? I THOUGHT Floyd was one of the best tackles in the draft. Just like many players are projected as top players in the draft. Floyd did not live up to the expectations people have for him. In college he looked pretty good so it was obvious to see the potential he had. BUT Floyd did not translate that ability to the NFL.

As for me being upset that Frazier didn't start him with Williams. I am glad. That wouldn't have work because Floyd isn't a true NT and neither is K-Will. When Floyd did come in, I seen nothing that showed me why he was worth the 1st round pick. The fact that we are considering getting a guy that is coming off an ACL injury says alot.

King James wrote:
At one point many though Ponder was going to be a franchise player for us. And what happened? I THOUGHT Floyd was one of the best tackles in the draft. Just like many players are projected as top players in the draft. Floyd did not live up to the expectations people have for him. In college he looked pretty good so it was obvious to see the potential he had. BUT Floyd did not translate that ability to the NFL.

As for me being upset that Frazier didn't start him with Williams. I am glad. That wouldn't have work because Floyd isn't a true NT and neither is K-Will. When Floyd did come in, I seen nothing that showed me why he was worth the 1st round pick. The fact that we are considering getting a guy that is coming off an ACL injury says alot.

Wow Floyd is a BUST Great to know, might as well cut him now!

dead_poet wrote:Melton reportedly going to Cowboys

So I looked at his bio and guess what? He was born in Texas and went to college in Texas. He's most likely been a Cowboys fan his whole life, so we might not have had a real shot at getting him.

King James wrote:At one point many though Ponder was going to be a franchise player for us. And what happened? I THOUGHT Floyd was one of the best tackles in the draft. Just like many players are projected as top players in the draft. Floyd did not live up to the expectations people have for him. In college he looked pretty good so it was obvious to see the potential he had. BUT Floyd did not translate that ability to the NFL.

As for me being upset that Frazier didn't start him with Williams. I am glad. That wouldn't have work because Floyd isn't a true NT and neither is K-Will. When Floyd did come in, I seen nothing that showed me why he was worth the 1st round pick. The fact that we are considering getting a guy that is coming off an ACL injury says alot.

2 problems with this post.....

1.) How can anyone tell if Floyd lived up to expectations when he only played 34% of snaps?? Honestly, there is no way you could really tell. It's not like he made 3 tackles on the season and that was it. He made plays, he had sacks, he forced fumbles, he stuffed guys in the backfield, and he was explosive and able to get penetration at the line. You can't sit there and say someone didn't live up to expectations when they were on the field on a very limited basis.

2.) Many thought Ponder was a franchise player?? Last time I checked, MANY were upset with the pick. And that is also a terrible comparison to Floyd. Also, Ponder was never THOUGHT to be a top player at his position, Floyd was. Comparing a 1st round DT like Floyd to a 1st round QB like Ponder is like comparing Mike Zimmer to Leslie Frazier....there is just nothing similar about them

mrc44 wrote:
It's called poor Coaching decisions. Floyd barely played at all. If you look at his stat, based on the amount of time he was on the field, he died just as well as K Will. It was his rookie season and our coaching staff was too stupid to figure out how to get him on the field. Floyd was a great pickup in last year's draft. He will be a force on the line. There is no one to back him up, that is why they were interested in signing Melton if the price was right. You obvioulsy don't know what you are talking about. The same guy who thinks AJ Mccarron is going to be a HOF.

*Obviously. If you're going to insult me, learn how to spell first.

Secondly, you are not a Vikings coach so how do you know exactly what the plans were going to be with Melton? Like back-up Floyd?

Lastly, what does my support of AJ McCarron have to do with my opinion on Sharif Floyd?

Pondering Her Percy wrote: 2 problems with this post.....

1.) How can anyone tell if Floyd lived up to expectations when he only played 34% of snaps?? Honestly, there is no way you could really tell. It's not like he made 3 tackles on the season and that was it. He made plays, he had sacks, he forced fumbles, he stuffed guys in the backfield, and he was explosive and able to get penetration at the line. You can't sit there and say someone didn't live up to expectations when they were on the field on a very limited basis.

2.) Many thought Ponder was a franchise player?? Last time I checked, MANY were upset with the pick. And that is also a terrible comparison to Floyd. Also, Ponder was never THOUGHT to be a top player at his position, Floyd was. Comparing a 1st round DT like Floyd to a 1st round QB like Ponder is like comparing Mike Zimmer to Leslie Frazier....there is just nothing similar about them

1) So you're saying that it was no way possible for Floyd to earn his way into the starting role. Despite the fact that every other player who was drafted in the 1st round under Frazier won the starting role that same year?

2) I'm not so sure. In 2012 before the midseason collapse, a lot of fans were believing in Ponder. It's that same belief in him that us to where we are now. Looking for another QB. Ponder and Floyd will be similar soon. Once Floyd proves he is a bust this season.