Vikings Message Board.Com

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:00 pm Reading all this makes me chuckle a little. Sure, the league always needs competent QB play, but the only teams that would have been seriously interested in a QB fitting Cousins' age and injury profile would be ones who thought they were ready to compete in the near term but just lacked the QB. There aren't all that many teams that fit that profile. So it really came down to maybe 2 or 3 teams, one of which would have been the Vikings.

That couldn't have been an overheated market the Falcons were competing in, but it looks like they went all-in anyway with a deal that may rank among the worst free agent deals of all time for the team that signed it. And that is true even if they get four years out of Cousins and do make the playoffs once or twice during that time, because the odds are that at best they'll get to the 2nd round once during that time.

And that's the part I just don't get - why go to such great lengths that you actually end up breaking league rules to end up where the Falcons are likely to end up?

To win the Super Bowl you have to make the playoffs. Once you make the playoffs anything can happen for example merely good Eli Manning on merely good NY Giants winning 2 Super Bowls one of them beating the best of the NE Patriots teams. I want the Vikings to win the Super Bowl, but I don't have to be pissed off when we don't. I can still enjoy the season. I enjoyed our 2022 season very much.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:09 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:00 pm And that's the part I just don't get - why go to such great lengths that you actually end up breaking league rules to end up where the Falcons are likely to end up?

To win the Super Bowl you have to make the playoffs. Once you make the playoffs anything can happen for example merely good Eli Manning on merely good NY Giants winning 2 Super Bowls one of them beating the best of the NE Patriots teams. I want the Vikings to win the Super Bowl, but I don't have to be pissed off when we don't. I can still enjoy the season. I enjoyed our 2022 season very much.

My point is, Cousins doesn't exactly have much of a playoff track record to indicate he is capable of leading a "Giants-esque" playoff run should his team actually make it that far. Is it possible he could buck tradition and pull off a run like that? I suppose it is. But is it likely? No.

And when a move is unlikely to produce a given result, does it make much sense to invest a huge amount of capital into that move? I think most people would say no to that as well.

It will be very interesting to see how many times the Falcons make the playoffs with Cousins at the helm over the next four years. I think there is a very good chance that Cousins will not be at the helm of that team for all four of those years. I think he'll likely be their starting QB for this season, and I think given the relative weakness of the division they play in there is a good chance of the Falcons making the playoffs with Cousins this coming year, but I'll be surprised if they advanced past the first round. I also think there is a very good chance the Falcons then go with Penix as their starting QB the following year. But we'll see.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:13 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:09 pm

To win the Super Bowl you have to make the playoffs. Once you make the playoffs anything can happen for example merely good Eli Manning on merely good NY Giants winning 2 Super Bowls one of them beating the best of the NE Patriots teams. I want the Vikings to win the Super Bowl, but I don't have to be pissed off when we don't. I can still enjoy the season. I enjoyed our 2022 season very much.

My point is, Cousins doesn't exactly have much of a playoff track record to indicate he is capable of leading a "Giants-esque" playoff run should his team actually make it that far. Is it possible he could buck tradition and pull off a run like that? I suppose it is. But is it likely? No.

And when a move is unlikely to produce a given result, does it make much sense to invest a huge amount of capital into that move? I think most people would say no to that as well.

It will be very interesting to see how many times the Falcons make the playoffs with Cousins at the helm over the next four years. I think there is a very good chance that Cousins will not be at the helm of that team for all four of those years. I think he'll likely be their starting QB for this season, and I think given the relative weakness of the division they play in there is a good chance of the Falcons making the playoffs with Cousins this coming year, but I'll be surprised if they advanced past the first round. I also think there is a very good chance the Falcons then go with Penix as their starting QB the following year. But we'll see.

This is the result the Falcons are seeking.
The Falcons needed stability, consistency and reliability at the quarterback position in 2024. With Cousins on the roster, Atlanta takes steps in that direction as the new league year begins.Mar 13, 2024
https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/qua ... r%20begins.
Of course there is always a risk and he won't be able to provide what they want or only portions of it. But there is a decade+ worth of playing time to help make the decision they did. That's a much easier decision than what a draft pick or journeyman veteran provides which they also have on the roster. Those two are big time question marks and the odds are very slim of either providing the result desired. The Falcons are no different than any other team that wants to advance in the playoffs. They need to play solid ball at all levels. A big time break down and it's over. The Eagles are the most recent example. Super Bowl to playoff blowout. They couldn't even make a 3rd down conversation which is unheard of. Same highly paid QB both seasons. Their D sucked last year compared to the SB year. That was the breakdown. Their O also wasn't the same. Another breakdown. Like the Falcons and us back to the drawing board. We will see who made the right moves for the now.

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:52 pm ...the Falcons and us back to the drawing board. We will see who made the right moves for the now.

From my perspective the drawing board is drafting a young QB and grooming him to be the starter as quickly as possible, which as you point out the Falcons did. But they also did a lot more than that, giving a hefty 4 year, mostly guaranteed deal to an older vet QB coming off a pretty severe non-contact injury.

I can agree the Falcons are covering their bases as, if I understand things correctly, the Vikings had told Cousins they intended to draft a rookie QB high this year regardless of whether he signed an extension with them, but in the case of the Vikings that deal would have been for a max of 2 years and with the obvious intent of getting the young QB on the field as quickly as possible. Cousins didn't like that for obvious reasons and found a team willing to give him more of an apparent commitment, although in hindsight I wonder if he feels he was misled a little by the Falcons.

This also put the Vikings into an interesting position, having almost no choice but to draft a rookie QB in the 1st, but also needing to find a veteran who could plausibly run the offense while the rookie was given time to develop. They found that QB in Sam Darnold, who they are on the hook for a 1 year deal with and no more unless there is cause to try to extend him beyond that.

So if you are comparing the relative positions of the Vikings and the Falcons at the QB position at this point, from where I sit there is an obvious winner, and that is the Vikings. Their veteran "spend" is way less than the Falcons in terms of both cap and duration, while their rookie investment has more upside IMHO. Penix is certainly very talented and could develop into a great pro QB at some point, but he comes into the league relatively old and there is no guarantee when he'll get his chance to see the field given the contract the Falcons gave to Cousins. It could be a while, even a long while running to near the end of his rookie deal.

OTOH, McCarthy comes into the league as one of the youngest rookies, much less the youngest QBs, and the guy he sits behind is playing on a one year deal, so it is obvious to everyone the Vikings intend to give him every opportunity to get on the field as quickly as possible. Since he's young, he'll still be relatively young when his rookie deal expires, meaning if he works out he could be the starting QB for the Vikings for a very long time by NFL standards.

I'm pretty happy overall with what the Vikings handled this situation. They refused to overpay Cousins and were willing to let him walk, they made an astute move to cover their @sses in the short term with Darnold, and then they invested the high draft pick in a guy with tons of upside potential.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:27 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:52 pm ...the Falcons and us back to the drawing board. We will see who made the right moves for the now.

From my perspective the drawing board is drafting a young QB and grooming him to be the starter as quickly as possible, which as you point out the Falcons did. But they also did a lot more than that, giving a hefty 4 year, mostly guaranteed deal to an older vet QB coming off a pretty severe non-contact injury.

I can agree the Falcons are covering their bases as, if I understand things correctly, the Vikings had told Cousins they intended to draft a rookie QB high this year regardless of whether he signed an extension with them, but in the case of the Vikings that deal would have been for a max of 2 years and with the obvious intent of getting the young QB on the field as quickly as possible. Cousins didn't like that for obvious reasons and found a team willing to give him more of an apparent commitment, although in hindsight I wonder if he feels he was misled a little by the Falcons.

This also put the Vikings into an interesting position, having almost no choice but to draft a rookie QB in the 1st, but also needing to find a veteran who could plausibly run the offense while the rookie was given time to develop. They found that QB in Sam Darnold, who they are on the hook for a 1 year deal with and no more unless there is cause to try to extend him beyond that.

So if you are comparing the relative positions of the Vikings and the Falcons at the QB position at this point, from where I sit there is an obvious winner, and that is the Vikings. Their veteran "spend" is way less than the Falcons in terms of both cap and duration, while their rookie investment has more upside IMHO. Penix is certainly very talented and could develop into a great pro QB at some point, but he comes into the league relatively old and there is no guarantee when he'll get his chance to see the field given the contract the Falcons gave to Cousins. It could be a while, even a long while running to near the end of his rookie deal.

OTOH, McCarthy comes into the league as one of the youngest rookies, much less the youngest QBs, and the guy he sits behind is playing on a one year deal, so it is obvious to everyone the Vikings intend to give him every opportunity to get on the field as quickly as possible. Since he's young, he'll still be relatively young when his rookie deal expires, meaning if he works out he could be the starting QB for the Vikings for a very long time by NFL standards.

I'm pretty happy overall with what the Vikings handled this situation. They refused to overpay Cousins and were willing to let him walk, they made an astute move to cover their @sses in the short term with Darnold, and then they invested the high draft pick in a guy with tons of upside potential.

The part I highlighted is what I feel is a bad spot to put yourself in as a team builder. Especially if you want to be competitive. No choice leads to bad decisions. I have no idea how any of these QBs will turn out. JJM was the 5th QB picked for a reason. A supposedly loaded class contributed and perhaps those teams in front of us swung and missed. We were 22 in scoring offense last season so something wasn't right. Either the core group has plenty of gaps or the QB couldn't hit anything like Dobbs showed once he was coached down by us. In other words we are far from loaded were anybody can step in. This years anybody is Darnold. Perhaps coaching/talent level will save him from his previous fall down stints or he was drafted much too early like Lance and many others so the expectation is too high. Our 1st game against the bottom feeding Giants will give a good indication of what is to come. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/points-per-game

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Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:56 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:30 am
The part I highlighted is what I feel is a bad spot to put yourself in as a team builder. Especially if you want to be competitive. No choice leads to bad decisions. I have no idea how any of these QBs will turn out. JJM was the 5th QB picked for a reason. A supposedly loaded class contributed and perhaps those teams in front of us swung and missed. We were 22 in scoring offense last season so something wasn't right. Either the core group has plenty of gaps or the QB couldn't hit anything like Dobbs showed once he was coached down by us. In other words we are far from loaded were anybody can step in. This years anybody is Darnold. Perhaps coaching/talent level will save him from his previous fall down stints or he was drafted much too early like Lance and many others so the expectation is too high. Our 1st game against the bottom feeding Giants will give a good indication of what is to come. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/points-per-game

Really? A journeyman QB with a 1-9 record & a QB rate south of 80 before he arrived in Minny somehow got coached down by us? You're consistent if nothing else. You almost always find a way to interject something negative about KOC & KAM.

He was coached down to the point of unplayable after those first 2 games when he was playable. KAM & KOC got us were we are now. It started with the competitive rebuild. Looks like that was thrown in the garbage after 2 seasons. Except Smith was dug up for another season. Why? Get some kid that may develop or put Cine in there. We don't have a straight forward direction at this point. We are all over the board. I don't see how that can work. I never would have let Cousins leave. I would have gave him an extension when he asked which would have been under 40 mill and included 2025. Getting rid of Sammy's 10 million makes it's under 30. That's a bargain IMO. But not to KAM & KOC. We'll see if they are right very shortly. Remember they have one year remaining. If we are not in the position to kick the SB door down then see you later.

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Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:03 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:42 am
He was coached down to the point of unplayable after those first 2 games when he was playable. KAM & KOC got us were we are now. It started with the competitive rebuild. Looks like that was thrown in the garbage after 2 seasons. Except Smith was dug up for another season. Why? Get some kid that may develop or put Cine in there. We don't have a straight forward direction at this point. We are all over the board. I don't see how that can work. I never would have let Cousins leave. I would have gave him an extension when he asked which would have been under 40 mill and included 2025. Getting rid of Sammy's 10 million makes it's under 30. That's a bargain IMO. But not to KAM & KOC. We'll see if they are right very shortly. Remember they have one year remaining. If we are not in the position to kick the SB door down then see you later.

And that's the real heart of the matter, right? Kirk Cousins. Well, he's gone. The Vikings decided to move on. And I suggest you move on as well. It's over. No matter how much you want to b!tch about it. It's not going to change. Cousins is the past. He's 36 & coming off a torn Achilles. It was time to try something else.

That's only a piece of the heart. We'll see how the 3rd year of restocking the roster works out. That's the rest of the heart.

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:42 am

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:56 am

Really? A journeyman QB with a 1-9 record & a QB rate south of 80 before he arrived in Minny somehow got coached down by us? You're consistent if nothing else. You almost always find a way to interject something negative about KOC & KAM.

He was coached down to the point of unplayable after those first 2 games when he was playable. KAM & KOC got us were we are now. It started with the competitive rebuild. Looks like that was thrown in the garbage after 2 seasons. Except Smith was dug up for another season. Why? Get some kid that may develop or put Cine in there. We don't have a straight forward direction at this point. We are all over the board. I don't see how that can work. I never would have let Cousins leave. I would have gave him an extension when he asked which would have been under 40 mill and included 2025. Getting rid of Sammy's 10 million makes it's under 30. That's a bargain IMO. But not to KAM & KOC. We'll see if they are right very shortly. Remember they have one year remaining. If we are not in the position to kick the SB door down then see you later.

Do you think they let Cousins leave because we couldn’t afford him….Or they knew he was never getting us to the Super Bowl?
I would say the 6 year experiment with Cousins was more than enough.

halfgiz wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:53 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:42 am
He was coached down to the point of unplayable after those first 2 games when he was playable. KAM & KOC got us were we are now. It started with the competitive rebuild. Looks like that was thrown in the garbage after 2 seasons. Except Smith was dug up for another season. Why? Get some kid that may develop or put Cine in there. We don't have a straight forward direction at this point. We are all over the board. I don't see how that can work. I never would have let Cousins leave. I would have gave him an extension when he asked which would have been under 40 mill and included 2025. Getting rid of Sammy's 10 million makes it's under 30. That's a bargain IMO. But not to KAM & KOC. We'll see if they are right very shortly. Remember they have one year remaining. If we are not in the position to kick the SB door down then see you later.

Do you think they let Cousins leave because we couldn’t afford him….Or they knew he was never getting us to the Super Bowl?
I would say the 6 year experiment with Cousins was more than enough.

I don't think they wanted Cousins to leave per se - they just weren't willing to commit to him for more than another 2 seasons. And had the Falcons not lost their minds (IMHO) and offered him an insane 4 years with so much guaranteed money, I think Cousins would still be a Viking and we'd be hearing how McCarthy is learning so much from him right now.

I 100% agree with your core point - it was way past time to end the Cousins era, heir apparent already defined or not. He was hellishly expensive which cost the team flexibility in free agency that they needed to be competitive for more than an early playoff exit and he brought nothing unique to the table the few times the Vikings made the playoffs with him at the helm. Utter waste of time and resources chasing statistical fool's gold. At least now they have a chance to find something better. There are no guarantees they will find something better, but at least they've given themselves that chance.

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:30 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:27 pm This also put the Vikings into an interesting position, having almost no choice but to draft a rookie QB in the 1st, but also

The part I highlighted is what I feel is a bad spot to put yourself in as a team builder. Especially if you want to be competitive. No choice leads to bad decisions. I have no idea how any of these QBs will turn out. JJM was the 5th QB picked for a reason. A supposedly loaded class contributed and perhaps those teams in front of us swung and missed. We were 22 in scoring offense last season so something wasn't right. Either the core group has plenty of gaps or the QB couldn't hit anything like Dobbs showed once he was coached down by us. In other words we are far from loaded were anybody can step in. This years anybody is Darnold. Perhaps coaching/talent level will save him from his previous fall down stints or he was drafted much too early like Lance and many others so the expectation is too high. Our 1st game against the bottom feeding Giants will give a good indication of what is to come. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/points-per-game

The only issue I have with the part you highlighted is that by all accounts KAM and KOC *did* try to keep Cousins, just for fewer years and less guaranteed money than the Falcons were willing to offer him. They also committed the cardinal sin of actually being honest with Kirk about their intentions at QB in the upcoming draft, which is something else that also differed between how the Falcons approached Cousins.

I can agree that it would have been far better had the Vikings drafted a rookie heir apparent prior to this last draft while Cousins was still under contract. However, in my view two things prevented them from doing exactly that this year into next year - the Falcons went way overboard in their commitment to Cousins as compared to what any other team in the vet QB market would have been willing to offer and Cousins himself who went for a deal without apparently being fully aware of the Falcons' intentions at QB.

The two deserve each other as far as I can tell, but you can't credibly claim the Vikings are solely at fault for the situation they found themselves in needing to draft a QB.

halfgiz wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:53 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:42 am
He was coached down to the point of unplayable after those first 2 games when he was playable. KAM & KOC got us were we are now. It started with the competitive rebuild. Looks like that was thrown in the garbage after 2 seasons. Except Smith was dug up for another season. Why? Get some kid that may develop or put Cine in there. We don't have a straight forward direction at this point. We are all over the board. I don't see how that can work. I never would have let Cousins leave. I would have gave him an extension when he asked which would have been under 40 mill and included 2025. Getting rid of Sammy's 10 million makes it's under 30. That's a bargain IMO. But not to KAM & KOC. We'll see if they are right very shortly. Remember they have one year remaining. If we are not in the position to kick the SB door down then see you later.

Do you think they let Cousins leave because we couldn’t afford him….Or they knew he was never getting us to the Super Bowl?
I would say the 6 year experiment with Cousins was more than enough.

I don't know what they thought. We'll see the results of the thought process this year. If Wentz/Foles combo can do it maybe Sammy and JJM can do it within the next 2 seasons. Hopefully we don't become the old Lions.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:13 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:30 am
The part I highlighted is what I feel is a bad spot to put yourself in as a team builder. Especially if you want to be competitive. No choice leads to bad decisions. I have no idea how any of these QBs will turn out. JJM was the 5th QB picked for a reason. A supposedly loaded class contributed and perhaps those teams in front of us swung and missed. We were 22 in scoring offense last season so something wasn't right. Either the core group has plenty of gaps or the QB couldn't hit anything like Dobbs showed once he was coached down by us. In other words we are far from loaded were anybody can step in. This years anybody is Darnold. Perhaps coaching/talent level will save him from his previous fall down stints or he was drafted much too early like Lance and many others so the expectation is too high. Our 1st game against the bottom feeding Giants will give a good indication of what is to come. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/points-per-game

The only issue I have with the part you highlighted is that by all accounts KAM and KOC *did* try to keep Cousins, just for fewer years and less guaranteed money than the Falcons were willing to offer him. They also committed the cardinal sin of actually being honest with Kirk about their intentions at QB in the upcoming draft, which is something else that also differed between how the Falcons approached Cousins.

I can agree that it would have been far better had the Vikings drafted a rookie heir apparent prior to this last draft while Cousins was still under contract. However, in my view two things prevented them from doing exactly that this year into next year - the Falcons went way overboard in their commitment to Cousins as compared to what any other team in the vet QB market would have been willing to offer and Cousins himself who went for a deal without apparently being fully aware of the Falcons' intentions at QB.

The two deserve each other as far as I can tell, but you can't credibly claim the Vikings are solely at fault for the situation they found themselves in needing to draft a QB.

Cousins agent is one of the best. From what I read Cousins wife is from the Atlanta area and perhaps that move worked out great for the family. He certainly didn't leave from or go to a legit SB contender. Most of them have a starter in place or they wouldn't be legit. It's also possible that KAM acquired the additional 1st rounder because he knew a top prospect would fall because of the QB run. In a positive Sammy plays lights out enough to keep the playoff hope alive into week 12 and JJM takes over and leads the rest of the way. Flores D gets better and better and we win a playoff game. That would be a great season at this point.