Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:56 pm
Josh Kline, prior to this year, was in the top 30 three years in a row according to PFF. He was the 12th best pass blocking guard in the nfl in 2017. He was top 20 in pass blocking in 2016. He also started 46 out of 48 games with Tennessee which shows his durability.

I would not mind bringing in Kline, Wisniewski, Garland, Sullivan, etc. to help build a floor for OL performance. Right now, the bottom is a bottomless pit. A couple of these veteran players to compete with a couple rookies, and at the worst provide experienced depth would seem a prudent move. I really don't understand why the Vikings have held on to Griffen, Waynes, and Rudolph. At least one of them should have been released or traded to make some cap room.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:56 pm

halfgiz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:34 pm

Your comparing Turner to Kline Kline graded worse than Remmers.
Slick Rick hasn't got the OL right in 4-5 years.

Another example of not doing any research on a player and it sure doesn’t help your argument. Turner was literally the worst guard in football in Miami. He signed with the broncos for 1 year/$2 million in 2016. That’s less than Rashod Hill is getting paid. Because Turner was that bad. In 2016 he played in 8 total games, he was the #75 of 76 tackles in the nfl. In 2015 for the dolphins he was the 63rd of 68 guards in the nfl. He then went on to start zero, yes ZERO games in 2017. He ended up being forced to start this year and showed decent.

Josh Kline, prior to this year, was in the top 30 three years in a row according to PFF. He was the 12th best pass blocking guard in the nfl in 2017. He was top 20 in pass blocking in 2016. He also started 46 out of 48 games with Tennessee which shows his durability.

So big deal, Turner outdid Kline one year. But when you look at what happened over time, it’s literally not even close. Turner wasn’t just bad, he was literally horrible. It’s like comparing TJ Clemmings to Brian O’Neill. There’s not a comparison.

So sit there and giggle all you want, but you actually thinking Billy Turner is even an average offensive lineman is what’s comical. Or the fact that you think we should have signed a guy like that and THEN say Spielman doesn’t know what he’s doing. I’m starting to think you don’t know what you’re talking about. You looked at one grade to compare the two. That’s like looking at Case Keenums 2017 and saying he’s a better QB than Matt Ryan because he made it further that year and had better stats. It’s just not realistic. And to top it all off, Kline should come cheaper than Turner, and we won’t be on the hook for 4 years is my guess. I take Kline 10 times out of 10 over turner. Even if Turner was cheaper which he won’t be. The packers just grossly overpaid for a one year wonder offensive lineman. And I can’t even say “wonder” because he was just average....either way I’m not going to complain about the packers making that mistake

Your opinion...is only your opinion.
Rick has yet to put together an OL line together and that's a fact.
Kline was pretty much a dumpster fire last year. Even worst than Remmers who you #### about.
But he fits Ricks Mo...
I truly hope that Kubiak can make the OL look serviceable this year.

S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:32 pm Spielman rightly deserves criticism for the OL, which has been bad throughout his very long tenure. He's particularly bad with interior lineman. Has he, in the last 10 years drafted any guards on day 1 or 2? I don't think so, Elflein in the 3rd is probably the closest. He's also done very poorly bringing in FA guards. Anyone remember Artis Hicks or Anthony Herrera? Boone?

He's had some success, guys like Sullivan, maybe Fusco but over a 10 year span it leaves much to be desired. I don't think it's really fair to tell fans to relax when we've had a GM let us down for the last decade in this respect. Let's not pretend like this is a 1 or 2 year issue of extraordinary circumstances.

I think overall Rick has built a good roster but I don't know how any of his body of work should have fans resting easy that he'll make it right via the draft.

My view of the league as a whole has really evolved the past few seasons. I feel like we are in the twilight of a roughly 15 year cycle where 4 or 5 elite QBs ruled the league and we are now entering a cycle where the difference between good and elite coaching is quite large. Evidence of this was seen locally in the transition from Frasier to Zimmer on Defense. We immediately saw a dramatic improvement. The apex of this trend is this year's SB and BB completely owning McVay.

It is worth noting that i feel that in terms game planning and calling a game, Zimmer is among the elite of defensive coaches. He is 2nd only to BB and probably tied with Fangio. This is why I find the calls to fire him a bit short sighted and I see why the Wilf's extended him.

So with that backdrop, I would choose to characterize OL failings a bit differently. I think one of the great weaknesses of the Zimmer regime has been the inabiltiy to find a consistent answer for the offensive coaching staff. This has been felt nowhere more acutely than on the OL. We need to keep in mind that after 2015 they fired Davidson for failing to develop the talent they had given him. Sparano had a mess in 2016, but made progess in 2017. Then he died. So to me, I think it is unfair to absolve Rick of all responsibility, but it is also unfair to lay all the blame on him. They need to get that offensive coaching thing figured out and start developing these guys. That is where they have failed.

halfgiz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:23 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:56 pm

Another example of not doing any research on a player and it sure doesn’t help your argument. Turner was literally the worst guard in football in Miami. He signed with the broncos for 1 year/$2 million in 2016. That’s less than Rashod Hill is getting paid. Because Turner was that bad. In 2016 he played in 8 total games, he was the #75 of 76 tackles in the nfl. In 2015 for the dolphins he was the 63rd of 68 guards in the nfl. He then went on to start zero, yes ZERO games in 2017. He ended up being forced to start this year and showed decent.

Josh Kline, prior to this year, was in the top 30 three years in a row according to PFF. He was the 12th best pass blocking guard in the nfl in 2017. He was top 20 in pass blocking in 2016. He also started 46 out of 48 games with Tennessee which shows his durability.

So big deal, Turner outdid Kline one year. But when you look at what happened over time, it’s literally not even close. Turner wasn’t just bad, he was literally horrible. It’s like comparing TJ Clemmings to Brian O’Neill. There’s not a comparison.

So sit there and giggle all you want, but you actually thinking Billy Turner is even an average offensive lineman is what’s comical. Or the fact that you think we should have signed a guy like that and THEN say Spielman doesn’t know what he’s doing. I’m starting to think you don’t know what you’re talking about. You looked at one grade to compare the two. That’s like looking at Case Keenums 2017 and saying he’s a better QB than Matt Ryan because he made it further that year and had better stats. It’s just not realistic. And to top it all off, Kline should come cheaper than Turner, and we won’t be on the hook for 4 years is my guess. I take Kline 10 times out of 10 over turner. Even if Turner was cheaper which he won’t be. The packers just grossly overpaid for a one year wonder offensive lineman. And I can’t even say “wonder” because he was just average....either way I’m not going to complain about the packers making that mistake

Your opinion...is only your opinion.
Rick has yet to put together an OL line together and that's a fact.
Kline was pretty much a dumpster fire last year. Even worst than Remmers who you #### about.
But he fits Ricks Mo...
I truly hope that Kubiak can make the OL look serviceable this year.

Yeah Kline graded worse (by 1 player) than Remmers in one out of the last 4 years. Billy Turner has graded out not just worse than any of our offensive lineman in the past 5 years but literally among the worst in the entire league. Outside of his one lone year this year. And Turner is making $7 million a year and on the hook for 4 years. And he cant be cut at any point within that 4 years without counting for at least $2.2 million in dead money (and that's in year 4). Everything prior to that is $5 million+ in dead money. We could get Kline for close to half of that money and less years on the hook. It's a no-brainer who the better option is.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:36 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:56 pm
Josh Kline, prior to this year, was in the top 30 three years in a row according to PFF. He was the 12th best pass blocking guard in the nfl in 2017. He was top 20 in pass blocking in 2016. He also started 46 out of 48 games with Tennessee which shows his durability.

I would not mind bringing in Kline, Wisniewski, Garland, Sullivan, etc. to help build a floor for OL performance. Right now, the bottom is a bottomless pit. A couple of these veteran players to compete with a couple rookies, and at the worst provide experienced depth would seem a prudent move. I really don't understand why the Vikings have held on to Griffen, Waynes, and Rudolph. At least one of them should have been released or traded to make some cap room.

I thought they would have extended Rudolph to cut cap costs. Waynes is an immediate impact player so I get why they kept him. Griffen still is IMO but maybe lost a bit. Rudolph is definitely starting to dwindle. But he's going to be like a Greenway and will be on this team until he retires IMO. Kline is a solid pickup IMO. Good veteran that is durable and can be a plug and play type OL. And he's a true guard. Not a converted tackle like Remmers.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:20 am

halfgiz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:23 am

Your opinion...is only your opinion.
Rick has yet to put together an OL line together and that's a fact.
Kline was pretty much a dumpster fire last year. Even worst than Remmers who you #### about.
But he fits Ricks Mo...
I truly hope that Kubiak can make the OL look serviceable this year.

Yeah Kline graded worse (by 1 player) than Remmers in one out of the last 4 years. Billy Turner has graded out not just worse than any of our offensive lineman in the past 5 years but literally among the worst in the entire league. Outside of his one lone year this year. And Turner is making $7 million a year and on the hook for 4 years. And he cant be cut at any point within that 4 years without counting for at least $2.2 million in dead money (and that's in year 4). Everything prior to that is $5 million+ in dead money. We could get Kline for close to half of that money and less years on the hook. It's a no-brainer who the better option is.

First off Turner didn't even want to play for us. He refused a visit.
So I don't know why you keep going on and on about him.

Ricks weakness as a GM has been QB's and Offensive linemen.
Slick Rick wanting to roll the dice with another linemen.

halfgiz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:20 am

Yeah Kline graded worse (by 1 player) than Remmers in one out of the last 4 years. Billy Turner has graded out not just worse than any of our offensive lineman in the past 5 years but literally among the worst in the entire league. Outside of his one lone year this year. And Turner is making $7 million a year and on the hook for 4 years. And he cant be cut at any point within that 4 years without counting for at least $2.2 million in dead money (and that's in year 4). Everything prior to that is $5 million+ in dead money. We could get Kline for close to half of that money and less years on the hook. It's a no-brainer who the better option is.

First off Turner didn't even want to play for us. He refused a visit.
So I don't know why you keep going on and on about him.

Ricks weakness as a GM has been QB's and Offensive linemen.
Slick Rick wanting to roll the dice with another linemen.

Not sure where you heard he "didnt want to play for us and refused a visit" but I can tell you that is 100% false.

Turner, a native of St. Paul, Minnesota, talked about how the Minnesota Vikings, a team desperate for offensive line help, did not reach out to him. The former North Dakota State standout had some thoughts about that to the Packers media.

#Packers Billy Turner, who is from Minnesota, to the #Vikings who never considered him: “That’s their loss. They’re going to have to deal with me twice a year. This is where I wanted to be.”

And the reason I keep bringing him up along with others is because he is an example of a terrible offensive lineman getting grossly overpaid in free agency. No different than Bobby Hart in Cincy. They are Rashod Hill caliber talent. We are paying Hill $2 million to be a swing tackle and be a depth piece. The Packers and Bengals are paying Turner and Hart $7 million to start lol. You were the one that questioned me on Billy Turner simply based off of his 2018 grade on PFF (which was in the average range) and paid zero attention to the previous 5 years he's been in the league and how horrible he's actually been.

Here's the main question: Do you really think it would be a wise move to pay a "one year of average play" offensive lineman (that was one of the worst lineman in the league prior to that) $7 million a year for 4 years just because we have a need on the offensive line? And if you somehow do think it was a wise move to do that, how did you think we were going to pay for him? Let Barr go? Trade Waynes? Cut Griff? For Billy effin Turner??!! Or would it be a wise move to sign a guy like Josh Kline for 2 years, at roughly $4-$5 million a year and not have to get rid of any of those guys? Hmmmm....

mansquatch wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:33 am

S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:32 pm Spielman rightly deserves criticism for the OL, which has been bad throughout his very long tenure. He's particularly bad with interior lineman. Has he, in the last 10 years drafted any guards on day 1 or 2? I don't think so, Elflein in the 3rd is probably the closest. He's also done very poorly bringing in FA guards. Anyone remember Artis Hicks or Anthony Herrera? Boone?

He's had some success, guys like Sullivan, maybe Fusco but over a 10 year span it leaves much to be desired. I don't think it's really fair to tell fans to relax when we've had a GM let us down for the last decade in this respect. Let's not pretend like this is a 1 or 2 year issue of extraordinary circumstances.

I think overall Rick has built a good roster but I don't know how any of his body of work should have fans resting easy that he'll make it right via the draft.

My view of the league as a whole has really evolved the past few seasons. I feel like we are in the twilight of a roughly 15 year cycle where 4 or 5 elite QBs ruled the league and we are now entering a cycle where the difference between good and elite coaching is quite large. Evidence of this was seen locally in the transition from Frasier to Zimmer on Defense. We immediately saw a dramatic improvement. The apex of this trend is this year's SB and BB completely owning McVay.

It is worth noting that i feel that in terms game planning and calling a game, Zimmer is among the elite of defensive coaches. He is 2nd only to BB and probably tied with Fangio. This is why I find the calls to fire him a bit short sighted and I see why the Wilf's extended him.

So with that backdrop, I would choose to characterize OL failings a bit differently. I think one of the great weaknesses of the Zimmer regime has been the inabiltiy to find a consistent answer for the offensive coaching staff. This has been felt nowhere more acutely than on the OL. We need to keep in mind that after 2015 they fired Davidson for failing to develop the talent they had given him. Sparano had a mess in 2016, but made progess in 2017. Then he died. So to me, I think it is unfair to absolve Rick of all responsibility, but it is also unfair to lay all the blame on him. They need to get that offensive coaching thing figured out and start developing these guys. That is where they have failed.

Really good point. The coaching carousel on the offensive side of the ball makes building an offense incredibly difficult. That might be something you can lay on Zimmer in part. It seems like things soured with Turner in a way that at least allows for speculation about Zimmer's interpersonal skills, but there is no way to know who's to blame for that dust up. Shurmur did well and got poached. Then things once again seemed to sour with De Filipo. Perhaps some of that is on Zimmer, or perhaps on Spielman if he pushed for that hire...anyway, its been a revolving door on offense, and now we are on a completely different style of offense and another new blocking scheme. They need continuity on that side of the ball and I truly hope Kubiak and Zimmer can be a team for a very long time.

Given all of that, it really does make some strategic sense to fortify that defense by retaining key players in FA and using the draft to select players who can fit our new scheme for the long haul.

PurpleMustReign wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:03 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:50 am
So you'd rather let a known quantity like Anthony Barr walk in favor of another mediocre offensive lineman? Are you even aware that Barr's cap hit for 2019 is now $5.6 million, which less than Mike Remmers' would have been? Please, please explain to me how that was a bad move.

There's ONE CB with trade value, and that's Trae Waynes. And it's very possible he only has significant trade value in the eyes of Vikings fans. With a $9 million+ cap hit, I guarantee you Spielman listened to offers for Waynes, but they weren't going to give him away for nothing.

As for the other 3,499 cornerbacks, nobody's going to give up the farm for a possibly declining Rhodes, a guy in Alexander who just started playing with any consistency, or two guys in Hughes and Hill who just came off their rookie seasons.

So yeah, I do read what I post. Do you? Or do you just look for any excuse to blast the Vikings and Spielman?

Would you rather I just sit back and rah rah all the time? Because that isn't going to happen. The OL has been an issue ever since he came here. Remember 2009? We were all worried Favre was going to get killed because if how often he was getting hit. 2012 was the only year the OL had any resemblemce of adequate and I think a lot of that was masked by AD going insane.
So yes. I am going to call a spade a spade and criticize Spielman. He sucks at getting OL talent. Plain and simple. I don't know how long people need to come to the conclusion that he is not a good GM. Frankly he didn't have much success getting defensive talent either until Zimmer came.
But yeah. Rah team! Sis boom bah!

And ... you failed to answer my questions regarding the supposed trade value of the 3,500 cornerbacks you claim we have. Or how keeping Anthony Barr for less than the cost of Mike Remmers is a bad move.

Nobody's saying you can't criticize Spielman. Hell, I criticize him when when it's warranted. In the case of re-signing Barr, it's not.

And yes, I've criticized Anthony Barr when it's warranted. But I've also praised his play when that's appropriate. I've been very balanced when it comes to Barr.

As for 2009, your memory is failing you. I was never worried that Favre would get killed except for the NFC Championship Game against the dirty Saints. We had McKinnie, Hutch, Sullivan, Hererra, and Loadholt across the front. I'd take the 2009 version of those guys right now -- if you're honest, you would too. We had the No. 1 passing offense and the No. 2 scoring offense in the entire NFL, for crying out loud. You can find a better barometer for offensive line failure than 2009.

For example, Clemmings, Boone, Berger, Fusco and Sirles from 2016 -- now THAT was a bad O-line. And what did Spielman do? Went out and signed Reiff and Remmers, and drafted Elflein. Remmers was serviceable at RT, Reiff was above average at LT, and Elflein was solid at C in 2017. But it's easy to forget that because the 2018 line was a dumpster fire. A lot of what happens with O-lines has to do with injuries and continuity. Look at our recent playoff years. In '09, the O-line missed two total games. In 2012, zero. In 2015, zero. In 2017, it was worse with Easton and Remmers missing 9 games between them, but Case Keenum's mobility helped offset that.

That's not to say we've ever had a Dallas-like O-line. I would never say that. But remember, for years, Dallas ignored other aspects of their team in the draft, and they paid for that. And yes, there has been a significant talent deficit at times with the Vikings. But to say Spielman doesn't care about the O-line, or never addresses it ... well, that just isn't true. You and I may not like the WAY he addresses those needs, and it may be true that his philosophy of late-round draft-and-develop for his O-linemen isn't paying dividends, but that doesn't mean they're being ignored.

I don't want them to trade Waynes. I want them to trade Rhodes.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:41 am

halfgiz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am

First off Turner didn't even want to play for us. He refused a visit.
So I don't know why you keep going on and on about him.

Ricks weakness as a GM has been QB's and Offensive linemen.
Slick Rick wanting to roll the dice with another linemen.

Not sure where you heard he "didnt want to play for us and refused a visit" but I can tell you that is 100% false.

Turner, a native of St. Paul, Minnesota, talked about how the Minnesota Vikings, a team desperate for offensive line help, did not reach out to him. The former North Dakota State standout had some thoughts about that to the Packers media.

#Packers Billy Turner, who is from Minnesota, to the #Vikings who never considered him: “That’s their loss. They’re going to have to deal with me twice a year. This is where I wanted to be.”

And the reason I keep bringing him up along with others is because he is an example of a terrible offensive lineman getting grossly overpaid in free agency. No different than Bobby Hart in Cincy. They are Rashod Hill caliber talent. We are paying Hill $2 million to be a swing tackle and be a depth piece. The Packers and Bengals are paying Turner and Hart $7 million to start lol. You were the one that questioned me on Billy Turner simply based off of his 2018 grade on PFF (which was in the average range) and paid zero attention to the previous 5 years he's been in the league and how horrible he's actually been.

Here's the main question: Do you really think it would be a wise move to pay a "one year of average play" offensive lineman (that was one of the worst lineman in the league prior to that) $7 million a year for 4 years just because we have a need on the offensive line? And if you somehow do think it was a wise move to do that, how did you think we were going to pay for him? Let Barr go? Trade Waynes? Cut Griff? For Billy effin Turner??!! Or would it be a wise move to sign a guy like Josh Kline for 2 years, at roughly $4-$5 million a year and not have to get rid of any of those guys? Hmmmm....

Ok If the Vikings didn't want him then why do you keep bringing Turners name up??
Why??
The bottom line is, to free up money somebody gets cut/traded or renegotiates their contract.
That's the only way we free up money.

Your opinion is Kline. My opinion is Kline is garbage. Just our opinion...

halfgiz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:40 pm

Ok If the Vikings didn't want him then why do you keep bringing Turners name up??
Why??

I literally just told you why if you read my whole post.....

And the reason I keep bringing him up along with others is because he is an example of a terrible offensive lineman getting grossly overpaid in free agency. No different than Bobby Hart in Cincy. They are Rashod Hill caliber talent. We are paying Hill $2 million to be a swing tackle and be a depth piece. The Packers and Bengals are paying Turner and Hart $7 million to start lol. You were the one that questioned me on Billy Turner simply based off of his 2018 grade on PFF (which was in the average range) and paid zero attention to the previous 5 years he's been in the league and how horrible he's actually been.

The bottom line is, to free up money somebody gets cut/traded or renegotiates their contract.
That's the only way we free up money.

I'm well aware of that. But why get rid of guys that can still play at a fairly high level like Barr and Griffen for average to below average talent along the OL? Just because we have a need there? Like I said, that's just not a smart approach.

Your opinion is Kline. My opinion is Kline is garbage. Just our opinion...

Your opinion was also that Billy Turner was a decent lineman. And he has been historically bad 5 of 6 years in the league which is why I questioned your opinion in the first place. You literally think Kline is garbage solely based off of googling his 2018 PFF grade. And thought Turner was decent by doing the same. One year doesnt tell all with any player in this league. Our example was Case Keenum. Over the past 5 years, you could ask any GM in the NFL if they would want Josh Kline for $4-$5 million a year for a few years or Billy Turner for $7 million a year for 4 years. I guarantee that 32/32 teams say Kline. However, this year, GB badly gambled on Turners "one good year" and gave him big money. We're banking on Kline's 3 good years and giving him less money (I'm guessing). That's a win for the Vikings and a loss for the Packers in my book.

mansquatch wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:33 am

S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:32 pm Spielman rightly deserves criticism for the OL, which has been bad throughout his very long tenure. He's particularly bad with interior lineman. Has he, in the last 10 years drafted any guards on day 1 or 2? I don't think so, Elflein in the 3rd is probably the closest. He's also done very poorly bringing in FA guards. Anyone remember Artis Hicks or Anthony Herrera? Boone?

He's had some success, guys like Sullivan, maybe Fusco but over a 10 year span it leaves much to be desired. I don't think it's really fair to tell fans to relax when we've had a GM let us down for the last decade in this respect. Let's not pretend like this is a 1 or 2 year issue of extraordinary circumstances.

I think overall Rick has built a good roster but I don't know how any of his body of work should have fans resting easy that he'll make it right via the draft.

My view of the league as a whole has really evolved the past few seasons. I feel like we are in the twilight of a roughly 15 year cycle where 4 or 5 elite QBs ruled the league and we are now entering a cycle where the difference between good and elite coaching is quite large. Evidence of this was seen locally in the transition from Frasier to Zimmer on Defense. We immediately saw a dramatic improvement. The apex of this trend is this year's SB and BB completely owning McVay.

It is worth noting that i feel that in terms game planning and calling a game, Zimmer is among the elite of defensive coaches. He is 2nd only to BB and probably tied with Fangio. This is why I find the calls to fire him a bit short sighted and I see why the Wilf's extended him.

So with that backdrop, I would choose to characterize OL failings a bit differently. I think one of the great weaknesses of the Zimmer regime has been the inabiltiy to find a consistent answer for the offensive coaching staff. This has been felt nowhere more acutely than on the OL. We need to keep in mind that after 2015 they fired Davidson for failing to develop the talent they had given him. Sparano had a mess in 2016, but made progess in 2017. Then he died. So to me, I think it is unfair to absolve Rick of all responsibility, but it is also unfair to lay all the blame on him. They need to get that offensive coaching thing figured out and start developing these guys. That is where they have failed.

Lack of continuity in coaching certainly plays a big factor. Probably the largest qualitative factor. But you also cannot ignore the quantitative factors, which is we're ranked near dead last in cap spent on our line and have had very little high round draft capital devoted to OL during Spielman's tenure. Hopefully Elflein and O'Neil are signs he's trying to remedy that but we are where we are from the culmination of years of neglect. This hasn't been a 1 or 2 year problem.

halfgiz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:20 am

Yeah Kline graded worse (by 1 player) than Remmers in one out of the last 4 years. Billy Turner has graded out not just worse than any of our offensive lineman in the past 5 years but literally among the worst in the entire league. Outside of his one lone year this year. And Turner is making $7 million a year and on the hook for 4 years. And he cant be cut at any point within that 4 years without counting for at least $2.2 million in dead money (and that's in year 4). Everything prior to that is $5 million+ in dead money. We could get Kline for close to half of that money and less years on the hook. It's a no-brainer who the better option is.

First off Turner didn't even want to play for us. He refused a visit.
So I don't know why you keep going on and on about him.

Ricks weakness as a GM has been QB's and Offensive linemen.
Slick Rick wanting to roll the dice with another linemen.

Yes Rick has struck out at QB. But getting Cousins was a good move. We could have easily signed Case. Give Rick credit for not doing that one. And also for getting Case and leading the team to the Champ game. But at least he knew Case was a bum. This org has had QB issues forever. Even without Rick. Childress thought he solved it with Jackson. Now that's a dumb football person. Hopefully Lock falls on our lap and Rick pulls the trigger on him. But that won't happen of course. He will either be gone or the Pack will pick him at the end of the 1st which is how it probably will go.

S197 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:19 pm Lack of continuity in coaching certainly plays a big factor. Probably the largest qualitative factor. But you also cannot ignore the quantitative factors, which is we're ranked near dead last in cap spent on our line and have had very little high round draft capital devoted to OL during Spielman's tenure. Hopefully Elflein and O'Neil are signs he's trying to remedy that but we are where we are from the culmination of years of neglect. This hasn't been a 1 or 2 year problem.

I think the lack of spend is a strategic decision. One can argue it's merits. I've drawn the distinction between this and it's efficacy many times. That the strategy hasn't produced a competitive OL over the years is not in doubt, we've all seen the results and I'm not about to argue we've had a good OL since really 2012.

Where I'm not certain of are the long term ramifications of the team making OL a higher draft priority for the next 2-3 seasons (what it would probably take to make the unit elite using those methods) and where it would leave the franchise as a whole. I think there is a strong case we'd be worse. My guess is that Spielman's approach indicates a similar view on the matter. (Which isn't to say it is right, just that his actions indicate this line of thinking.)

Stil, that doesn't solve the problem. That is why I'm focused on the coaching. If they are going to stick with this level of prioritization on this part of the roster, then they are placing the onus on the coaching and their ability to "get more out of less." Zimmer's regime was on the right track with Sparano, IMO, but that was tragically cut short. So can they get there with Kubiak/Stefanski.

As an aside, it never gets talked about, but I think Zimmer/Spielman get this point about the onus being on the coaching/development. They did not retain Davidson after 2015, instead bringing in Sparano. That hire was an obvious attempt at correcting this issue. In 2017 they showed a lot of progress before injuries took a toll late in the season. Having him die when he did was a big deal. My guess is that had he not died last season would have been better on offense. Now they are hoppiong Kubiak can get them back on the right track.

As fans we are fools to think they are going to go big everywhere. The cap prevents that. This team has made it's strategy very clear. They draft Defensive talent early and often. They have a coaching staff in place that excels at getting the most out of this talent. The have shown a recent knack for finding excellent offensive skill positions as well. (OK, they got lucky on Thielen) They are not putting a lot of priority on the OL because something has to give and they've decided it is the OL. Love it or hate it, that is what they are doing. IMO, the missing link in this strategy is finding the right group of coaches on offense to make this work. That is where they are failing. (Some of it bad hires, some of it bad luck, but mostly so far bad hires.)

My basic view on all of this is that they've set a course strategically with the OL. If it fails (again) we shouldn't just blame the talent pool. We should blame also the coaching. They've made it very clear that they intend to go at this position with lower round picks and late free agent signings. It is up to the coaches to make the strategy work.