Page 4 of 5
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:13 am
by Pondering Her Percy
Mothman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:01 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 am
That's for sure ... 50+ points for both teams. Seriously?
I honestly hate this. Call me an old-school Purple People Eater, but I don't find a 54-51 track meet enjoyable to watch at all.
Yeah, that's not what I consider good football.
I loved the game. I've always like the Chiefs ever since Jamaal Charles early years and I've always liked the Rams because my father is a huge fan. I can see why some fans are turned off about it. I enjoy it, especially from a fantasy perspective because I had Mahomes in two leagues, Kelce in one and Hill in one.
One thing I will say about these teams, is that it's only going to take one defense to find a way to slow these offenses down in the playoffs and they're toast. That is why I can see us beating the Rams if we catch them. Because Zim has always done a great job second time around figuring out ways to slow down high powered offenses. With how the D is playing now, I cant see the Rams putting up 38 on us again. I just dont. And as for the Saints, I'm not sold on their defense either. That was a game we beat ourselves in. Zim once again found ways to shut their offense down but we had two costly turnovers that were more on us than New Orleans making big plays. Call me crazy but if we land a wild card (we currently have the 6 seed now) or even win the division, I'm more worried about getting out of that game than I am if we catch the Rams or Saints or one in the divisional and one in the NFC championship game. I just feel like the Carolinas and Bears of the world post bigger challenges for us. Mobile QBs, balanced on offense and defense more compared to the Rams and Saints. I think anyone that comes out of the NFC East is dead in the water. So it would be nice to catch one of them first. This defense is back on track. I take our offense vs a bad defense any day. Outside of Buffalo, we've lost to the 3 best teams in the NFC. LA, NO, Chi. We've lost those games by 7, 10 and 5. They are all beatable. I still have a lot of confidence in this team. We've been pretty good around this time the past year or so. Time to tune in!
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:39 am
by VikingLord
Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:54 pm
I disagree about the defense. This defense went from being ranked 22nd in total defense after the Rams game to 5th. They have tuned in since week 4. We're top of the league in sacks, started to commit more turnovers, shutting opposing offenses down, etc. I mean we held a first ballot hall of famer thats having an MVP season to 120 yards passing, 1 "TD" pass (those stupid flip plays that counts as a TD pass) and 1 INT (his only one of the year). We turned Chicago over 3 times last night and allowed 1 offensive TD. That's damn good defense if you ask me. Run defense was inconsistent but is still top 5 on the year. This defense is playing well no matter what way you're looking at it. Recently, the points allowed makes fans think they arent playing good but it's due to the offense turning the ball over and either giving up a TD that way or pinning our defense inside our own 30.
While I will agree that the Vikings defense has improved generally since the game against the Rams, I'm going to have to disagree with some of your assessment of the game against the Bears.
Coming into this game, the Vikings knew how the Bears offense works:
- Lots of Trubisky runs. He's a one-read QB who will almost always go mobile if his first read isn't there, and once he's in space, he's got the speed and moves to do some real, consistent damage. You don't ignore his tendencies or this threat, but the Vikings seemed to do exactly that in the 1st half as they fell behind and allowed the Bears offense to march several times, largely on the back of Trubisky scrambles and runs.
- Lots of misdirection and option plays. The Bears use motion pre and post-snap to confuse and misdirect, hoping to catch overly aggressive defenders peeking or chasing cars down the road while the actual ball carrier is headed the other way. Lots of tape on this heading into the game, and yet the Vikings edge players specifically, seemed almost totally unprepared for it. How many times did the DE not stay home in the 1st half or the outside LB got caught taking false steps? Disciplined play shuts that down every time just like it did in the 2nd half. This reminded me of the game against the Rams when Gurley spent the better part of 3 quarters picking up nice gains with simple inside cutbacks before the Vikings finally figured it out and put a stop to it. The coaches should be watching tape of their opponents, figuring out tendencies, and making sure their players on the field are ready to defense those tendencies.
I really felt like the Vikings were unprepared for the Bears and had to use the 1st half to get prepared. I felt the Bears ran with impunity in the 1st half, and while they didn't in the 2nd half, they still muscled their way to consistent gains inside during that half. The Vikings interior defenders, after 2 weeks off, were simply physically outmatched inside the entire game.
I'm not going to argue the larger theme of whether the Vikings defense has improved overall because I agree that they have, but I think they were clearly not good against the Bears in the 1st half of that game.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:51 am
by Pondering Her Percy
VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:39 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:54 pm
I disagree about the defense. This defense went from being ranked 22nd in total defense after the Rams game to 5th. They have tuned in since week 4. We're top of the league in sacks, started to commit more turnovers, shutting opposing offenses down, etc. I mean we held a first ballot hall of famer thats having an MVP season to 120 yards passing, 1 "TD" pass (those stupid flip plays that counts as a TD pass) and 1 INT (his only one of the year). We turned Chicago over 3 times last night and allowed 1 offensive TD. That's damn good defense if you ask me. Run defense was inconsistent but is still top 5 on the year. This defense is playing well no matter what way you're looking at it. Recently, the points allowed makes fans think they arent playing good but it's due to the offense turning the ball over and either giving up a TD that way or pinning our defense inside our own 30.
While I will agree that the Vikings defense has improved generally since the game against the Rams, I'm going to have to disagree with some of your assessment of the game against the Bears.
Coming into this game, the Vikings knew how the Bears offense works:
- Lots of Trubisky runs. He's a one-read QB who will almost always go mobile if his first read isn't there, and once he's in space, he's got the speed and moves to do some real, consistent damage. You don't ignore his tendencies or this threat, but the Vikings seemed to do exactly that in the 1st half as they fell behind and allowed the Bears offense to march several times, largely on the back of Trubisky scrambles and runs.
- Lots of misdirection and option plays. The Bears use motion pre and post-snap to confuse and misdirect, hoping to catch overly aggressive defenders peeking or chasing cars down the road while the actual ball carrier is headed the other way. Lots of tape on this heading into the game, and yet the Vikings edge players specifically, seemed almost totally unprepared for it. How many times did the DE not stay home in the 1st half or the outside LB got caught taking false steps? Disciplined play shuts that down every time just like it did in the 2nd half. This reminded me of the game against the Rams when Gurley spent the better part of 3 quarters picking up nice gains with simple inside cutbacks before the Vikings finally figured it out and put a stop to it. The coaches should be watching tape of their opponents, figuring out tendencies, and making sure their players on the field are ready to defense those tendencies.
I really felt like the Vikings were unprepared for the Bears and had to use the 1st half to get prepared. I felt the Bears ran with impunity in the 1st half, and while they didn't in the 2nd half, they still muscled their way to consistent gains inside during that half. The Vikings interior defenders, after 2 weeks off, were simply physically outmatched inside the entire game.
I'm not going to argue the larger theme of whether the Vikings defense has improved overall because I agree that they have, but I think they were clearly not good against the Bears in the 1st half of that game.
Oh I agree the defense wasnt great in the first half. Especially vs the run. Pass was great most of the game. Overall, I thought it was a solid performance. Not great but good enough to get a win if the offense did their job
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:46 pm
by 9man
This is a championship caliber defense. Many will not agree with that but fact is the defense does not need to be #1 to win a Super Bowl. The offense has special players but the offense itself is nothing special and lacks ingenuity.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:05 pm
by VikingLord
9man wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:46 pm
This is a championship caliber defense. Many will not agree with that but fact is the defense does not need to be #1 to win a Super Bowl. The offense has special players but the offense itself is nothing special and lacks ingenuity.
There isn't much to base that claim on statistically this year, but I will say that the talent on the defense is good enough to win a Super Bowl with this year. Now, whether that talent is properly prepared and motivated to play at that level for 60 minutes every game is another question, at least for me. Based on not just one game, but several so far this year, I'd say the answer is not yet. Still time to turn it around, but the window for this season is closing.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:54 pm
by 808vikingsfan
Mothman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:01 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 am
That's for sure ... 50+ points for both teams. Seriously?
I honestly hate this. Call me an old-school Purple People Eater, but I don't find a 54-51 track meet enjoyable to watch at all.
Yeah, that's not what I consider good football.
Felt like I was watching an NBA all star game. Fun to watch but I agree, not good football.
Nice to see you back Moth.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:22 pm
by S197
Mothman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:01 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 am
That's for sure ... 50+ points for both teams. Seriously?
I honestly hate this. Call me an old-school Purple People Eater, but I don't find a 54-51 track meet enjoyable to watch at all.
Yeah, that's not what I consider good football.
I agree with you and Kapp, I just don't see it going away. I can't even think of the last rule change that helped a defense, even fixing the catch rules hurts a defense despite it being IMO the right call.
But I do want to clarify my statement a little, I'm not saying abandon defense, just that draft and capital need to be spread around. For instance, this defense would still be pretty good with Harris instead of Sendejo, Wilson instead of Barr, Holton instead of Hughes, and Tom Johnson instead of Richardson. Performance would go down but we'd get by. We have gotten by with some of those subs.
Now think about all that cap money and draft picks and putting it towards the O-line. How big of an impact would that make? We can only speculate but probably pretty big. A much bigger difference than keeping those defensive players.
Pocket passers aren't extinct but they certainly need more help than late round picks and journeymen for protection. Zimmer is a good enough coach that he doesn't need the luxury of an all-star personnel to make his defense work. He and Rick need to realize times are changing and start adapting. Otherwise we're going to keep wallowing in this quasi-playoff team state.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:36 pm
by Mothman
808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:54 pmFelt like I was watching an NBA all star game. Fun to watch but I agree, not good football.
... and those color rush uniforms are tough on the eyes!
Nice to see you back Moth.
Thanks.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:55 pm
by PurpleMustReign
9man wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:46 pm
This is a championship caliber defense. Many will not agree with that but fact is the defense does not need to be #1 to win a Super Bowl. The offense has special players but the offense itself is nothing special and lacks ingenuity.
The defense statistically is good, really good. But last year you could see teams were afraid of them. I don't see that this year. It just doesn't look the same.
With that said, I like our defense against the Rams or Chiefs offense to slow them down more than anyone else has. I just hope they get the chance to show it.,
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:48 pm
by VikingLord
Mothman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:36 pm
808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:54 pmFelt like I was watching an NBA all star game. Fun to watch but I agree, not good football.
... and those color rush uniforms are tough on the eyes!
Nice to see you back Moth.
Thanks.
Are you actually back Jim? I know you popped in a few times last year, but if you're back-back that is great! Board isn't the same without your contributions and insights.
The main thought that goes through my head when I watch the Rams or the Chiefs is, what do they do if the offense falters? What do they have to rely on? The Rams have a defense that I think can play, although it has some shaky components. The Chiefs are offense-or-bust I think. Very good on offense, sure, but kind of one-dimensional.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:35 pm
by 9man
VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:05 pm
9man wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:46 pm
This is a championship caliber defense. Many will not agree with that but fact is the defense does not need to be #1 to win a Super Bowl. The offense has special players but the offense itself is nothing special and lacks ingenuity.
There isn't much to base that claim on statistically this year, but I will say that the talent on the defense is good enough to win a Super Bowl with this year. Now, whether that talent is properly prepared and motivated to play at that level for 60 minutes every game is another question, at least for me. Based on not just one game, but several so far this year, I'd say the answer is not yet. Still time to turn it around, but the window for this season is closing.
The stats do backup my statement. If you look at points per drive the defense is #4 (1.75). With how offenses are going crazy this year I think that is a great accomplishment. By the way Chicago D is #1 (1.58).
The offense points per drive is #22 (1.88), this is where the team needs to improve. There needs to be a balance. The Saints are at the top with 3.79.
Last year the Eagles O and D were balanced at 4, the year before the Pats had a better D (#1) than O (#5).
The 2015 Broncos were very unbalanced, D (#1) O (#24). Looking back that was a great victory against a Carolina team that was #1 offensively and #2 defensively.
Obviously the Vikings defense is not the 2015 Broncos and I think for this team to compete they must get more balanced. The offense needs to find their stride in December.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:59 am
by allday1991
Thoughts after the game. We definitely arent as good as i thought we were and are definitely far out imo from a superbowl. Given the way we play in primetime games, games at big moments, and games against good teams. We play our worse when we need to play our best (eagles,bears). The last two years our most impressive win against a good team was a miracle against the saints. I wish i didnt think we are about to drop our next three games this season. Packers (@ home but primetime) is a game we could easily lose, pats at home, and seahawks at there home monday night all tough games, at a big moment in the season, could get ugly.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:59 am
by MikethePurple
S197 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:22 pm
Mothman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:01 am
Yeah, that's not what I consider good football.
I agree with you and Kapp, I just don't see it going away. I can't even think of the last rule change that helped a defense, even fixing the catch rules hurts a defense despite it being IMO the right call.
But I do want to clarify my statement a little, I'm not saying abandon defense, just that draft and capital need to be spread around. For instance, this defense would still be pretty good with Harris instead of Sendejo, Wilson instead of Barr, Holton instead of Hughes, and Tom Johnson instead of Richardson. Performance would go down but we'd get by. We have gotten by with some of those subs.
Now think about all that cap money and draft picks and putting it towards the O-line. How big of an impact would that make? We can only speculate but probably pretty big. A much bigger difference than keeping those defensive players.
Pocket passers aren't extinct but they certainly need more help than late round picks and journeymen for protection. Zimmer is a good enough coach that he doesn't need the luxury of an all-star personnel to make his defense work. He and Rick need to realize times are changing and start adapting. Otherwise we're going to keep wallowing in this quasi-playoff team state.
I watched some of the game but I turned it off at halftime. It just was not interesting to me to see teams go down the field and score every position with hardly any resistance. If this is what the future of the NFL looks like, there's a good chance I'll stop watching, even the Vikings. It's really boring to watch in my opinion and while I applaud the efforts of making the game safer for players, making defense an outdated or second tier concept for teams will ruin the game in my view.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:20 pm
by StumpHunter
VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:05 pm
9man wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:46 pm
This is a championship caliber defense. Many will not agree with that but fact is the defense does not need to be #1 to win a Super Bowl. The offense has special players but the offense itself is nothing special and lacks ingenuity.
There isn't much to base that claim on statistically this year, but I will say that the talent on the defense is good enough to win a Super Bowl with this year. Now, whether that talent is properly prepared and motivated to play at that level for 60 minutes every game is another question, at least for me. Based on not just one game, but several so far this year, I'd say the answer is not yet. Still time to turn it around, but the window for this season is closing.
4th in pts, 5th in yards, 6th in turnover percentage, and 1st on 3rd down. Those look like SB caliber stats to me.
Re: Vikings-Bears Post Game Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:27 pm
by StumpHunter
9man wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:35 pm
VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:05 pm
There isn't much to base that claim on statistically this year, but I will say that the talent on the defense is good enough to win a Super Bowl with this year. Now, whether that talent is properly prepared and motivated to play at that level for 60 minutes every game is another question, at least for me. Based on not just one game, but several so far this year, I'd say the answer is not yet. Still time to turn it around, but the window for this season is closing.
The stats do backup my statement. If you look at points per drive the defense is #4 (1.75). With how offenses are going crazy this year I think that is a great accomplishment. By the way Chicago D is #1 (1.58).
The offense points per drive is #22 (1.88), this is where the team needs to improve. There needs to be a balance. The Saints are at the top with 3.79.
Last year the Eagles O and D were balanced at 4, the year before the Pats had a better D (#1) than O (#5).
The 2015 Broncos were very unbalanced, D (#1) O (#24). Looking back that was a great victory against a Carolina team that was #1 offensively and #2 defensively.
Obviously the Vikings defense is not the 2015 Broncos and I think for this team to compete they must get more balanced. The offense needs to find their stride in December.
I think they could be close to as good as the 2015 Broncos if everyone is healthy. They got a decent pass rush on Trubiskey, he just ran away from it and picked up yards with his legs. If we had more than one starting caliber LBer playing, that might not happen.
Held Brees to 120 yards, which is fantastic this season, and it means the coverage is pretty good in the secondary.
Just need to figure things out on offense, opening holes for the RBs, and the QB needs to stop making stupid mistakes.