Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:23 pm I cant believe we're arguing this right now and that Vikings fans are actually complaining about Kirk Cousins. The best QB we have had since last year's backup.

Fixed it for you.

He is a good QB. He hasn't earned his 84 million dollar contract yet. Hopefully he does someday.

I can't believe as Vikings fans we are arguing that a QB stats are more important than offensive and team success.

Is someone really saying that Case Keenum, who had a significantly better O-Line and Impeccable defense is better than Kirk Cousins with a worse O-Line and worse defense?


What a world we live in.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:57 pm My goodness did you bend over backwards to pick and choose numbers that fit your narrative. The Saints and Eagles are significantly worse defenses this year than last and the Packers CBs were still in college last year. Not apples to apples. Apples to crappy defenses.

I didn't cherry pick the data. They've played 3 of the same teams so far: Eagles, Packers, and Saints. Sure, those teams aren't exactly the same as last year, but I don't know a better way to make a comparison. Against all 3 of these teams, Cousins outplayed Keenum by an average passer rating of 36 more points (118.8 to 78.7, 107.7 to 85.2, 109.6 to 63.6). That's significant.

That's the closest we'll get to a fair comparison unless Keenum joins our team again and plays a half while Cousins plays the other half.

I think it's a much better analysis compared to a broad stroke of "the first 8 starts" since the teams they've played have way more variables than 3 of the same teams from one year to the next.

Too many variables to come to Cousins conclusions, i.e. only 8 games played, playing behind perhaps a historically rotten offensive line, number one back on the sideline and no good option at the #3 receiver spot. "SO FAR," I think Cousins is every bit as good as anyone we've ever had under center to include Gary Cuozzo and 09 Favre. No telling what kind of numbers and W/L's he would have right now if any of the variables changed, especially the Oline. Very disappointed in Hill's performance against the Saints. His whiffs almost ended Cousins season.

mansquatch wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:14 am

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:33 am
How man ints does Case have this season?

This is exactly right. Keenum also played out of his mind last year. He has regressed to his mean in Denver. Keenum on this incarnation of the Vikings might have a worse record than Cousins. (Although his rapport with the players might have been an intangible positive.)

I would remind folks that Reilly Reiff has not been healthy for most of the season. The OL issues do not just begin and end at Guard. Compton was also out last Sunday. This team is ready for it's Bye.

Not only that, but last year's offensive line was MILES better than this year's.

Reiff was healthy. Remmers was playing right tackle. Joe Berger was here. Elflein was healthy. Even Nick Easton is better than any guard we have right now.

I love what Case Keenum brought to this team. But don't tell me he would have done any better than Cousins with this line. Reiff has barely played. Remmers has moved to guard because of injuries and retirement. Elflein missed significant time. Our "starting" left guard, Tom Compton, who could barely keep a job in the NFL, has been hurt. We've got Rashod Hill and Danny Isodora starting. We've got a talented rookie right tackle in Brian O'Neill starting, even though he really wasn't ready.

While Keenum had a tremendous season in 2017, he was prone at times to reverting to his earlier wayward days. That especially was the case in the NFC Championship Game. Cousins doesn't have the scrambling ability of Keenum, but he's good at getting the ball out quickly when there's pressure, which is why he ranks very highly against pressure. Keenum benefited last year from a better defense and a better offensive line. How he’s looking this season for Denver is more of an indication of what type of quarterback he is.

Also, there's the Thielen/Diggs factor. Yes, they certainly help Cousins. But they helped Case even more. Case isn't close to as accurate as Cousins is. Thielen and Diggs bailed out Keenum time after time last year.

Is Cousins the MVP? Nah, I don't think so. Is he having a great season. Yes. Sounds a lot like what we were saying about Case Keenum last year.

AngryVike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:00 pm Too many variables to come to Cousins conclusions, i.e. only 8 games played, playing behind perhaps a historically rotten offensive line, number one back on the sideline and no good option at the #3 receiver spot. "SO FAR," I think Cousins is every bit as good as anyone we've ever had under center to include Gary Cuozzo and 09 Favre. No telling what kind of numbers and W/L's he would have right now if any of the variables changed, especially the Oline. Very disappointed in Hill's performance against the Saints. His whiffs almost ended Cousins season.

Good post. Can't disagree.

Here's an interesting thing. Our "no good option No. 3 receiver" is on pace for 50 receptions. Not saying he's any good. But Cousins seems to be able to get at least some production out of him.

Meanwhile, Thielen is on pace for 148, Diggs for 116, and Kyle Rudolph for 64.

It would be an entirely separate argument as to what it all means. It's just interesting.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:03 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:23 pm I cant believe we're arguing this right now and that Vikings fans are actually complaining about Kirk Cousins. The best QB we have had since last year's backup.

Fixed it for you.

He is a good QB. He hasn't earned his 84 million dollar contract yet. Hopefully he does someday.

I can't believe as Vikings fans we are arguing that a QB stats are more important than offensive and team success.

dude give it a rest. Nobody is saying that just because Cousins has good stats he’s the next Tom Brady. But bottom line is, you and every other fan on this board knows that cousins didn’t lose us the rams game or tie the GB game. He was the only reason we were in those games. To point the finger at Cousins for those two games is asinine. Which is exactly why I’m not judging him by record. He’s been one of the better QBs in the league this year. No question about it.

And at the end you say “team success”. Exactly my point. Why are we basing how good Cousins is off our record? Is he the “team”. Does he play defense and special teams? No. So stop narrowing everything down to be cousins fault.

And not sure why you fixed my comment. Keenum was a one year wonder. He’s proved it. He’s literally never been good outside of last year. And will gradually make his way to being a backup again. So let’s get past that

Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:47 pm Is someone really saying that Case Keenum, who had a significantly better O-Line and Impeccable defense is better than Kirk Cousins with a worse O-Line and worse defense?


What a world we live in.

Lol he’s also saying that we’d be better off keeping Teddy and a “solid backup” like what?

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:07 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:03 pm

Fixed it for you.

He is a good QB. He hasn't earned his 84 million dollar contract yet. Hopefully he does someday.

I can't believe as Vikings fans we are arguing that a QB stats are more important than offensive and team success.

dude give it a rest. Nobody is saying that just because Cousins has good stats he’s the next Tom Brady. But bottom line is, you and every other fan on this board knows that cousins didn’t lose us the rams game or tie the GB game. He was the only reason we were in those games. To point the finger at Cousins for those two games is asinine. Which is exactly why I’m not judging him by record. He’s been one of the better QBs in the league this year. No question about it.

And at the end you say “team success”. Exactly my point. Why are we basing how good Cousins is off our record? Is he the “team”. Does he play defense and special teams? No. So stop narrowing everything down to be cousins fault.

And not sure why you fixed my comment. Keenum was a one year wonder. He’s proved it. He’s literally never been good outside of last year. And will gradually make his way to being a backup again. So let’s get past that

Thank you, bruv. 9 times out of 10 when a QB is putting up good stats the team and especially offenses struggles aren't because of him. Not to mention when he doesn't have any real help putting up good numbers is even more impressive.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:11 pm

Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:47 pm Is someone really saying that Case Keenum, who had a significantly better O-Line and Impeccable defense is better than Kirk Cousins with a worse O-Line and worse defense?


What a world we live in.

Lol he’s also saying that we’d be better off keeping Teddy and a “solid backup” like what?

I don't agree but there is some reason why that would be better for this team. We are about to lose a lot of good players to FA due to our QB contract. I think it was worth it but unless we can replace these guys, we might end up breaking even.

TSonn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:24 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:57 pm My goodness did you bend over backwards to pick and choose numbers that fit your narrative. The Saints and Eagles are significantly worse defenses this year than last and the Packers CBs were still in college last year. Not apples to apples. Apples to crappy defenses.

I didn't cherry pick the data. They've played 3 of the same teams so far: Eagles, Packers, and Saints. Sure, those teams aren't exactly the same as last year, but I don't know a better way to make a comparison. Against all 3 of these teams, Cousins outplayed Keenum by an average passer rating of 36 more points (118.8 to 78.7, 107.7 to 85.2, 109.6 to 63.6). That's significant.

That's the closest we'll get to a fair comparison unless Keenum joins our team again and plays a half while Cousins plays the other half.

I think it's a much better analysis compared to a broad stroke of "the first 8 starts" since the teams they've played have way more variables than 3 of the same teams from one year to the next.

It is much better to pick and choose games than use a larger sample size? Because it fits the narrative?

Stats in a small sample size can be manipulated to fit whatever agenda you want.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:07 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:03 pm

Fixed it for you.

He is a good QB. He hasn't earned his 84 million dollar contract yet. Hopefully he does someday.

I can't believe as Vikings fans we are arguing that a QB stats are more important than offensive and team success.

dude give it a rest. Nobody is saying that just because Cousins has good stats he’s the next Tom Brady. But bottom line is, you and every other fan on this board knows that cousins didn’t lose us the rams game or tie the GB game. He was the only reason we were in those games. To point the finger at Cousins for those two games is asinine. Which is exactly why I’m not judging him by record. He’s been one of the better QBs in the league this year. No question about it.

And at the end you say “team success”. Exactly my point. Why are we basing how good Cousins is off our record? Is he the “team”. Does he play defense and special teams? No. So stop narrowing everything down to be cousins fault.

And not sure why you fixed my comment. Keenum was a one year wonder. He’s proved it. He’s literally never been good outside of last year. And will gradually make his way to being a backup again. So let’s get past that

Agree that Keenum was a one year wonder. In this offense with Diggs and Thielen to throw too, he looked like an MVP and put up almost the same per pass stats. What does that say about Cousins current season? How did he look when one of those guys wasn't in the lineup today?

I never said Cousins was responsible for the loss and tie versus the Packers, I am actually giving him credit for the tie and assume a lesser QB would have gotten us a loss. As for the Rams game, I am merely saying it does not matter how many yards and TDs he threw against them. In the end it was a loss, and a loss by 7 versus a loss by 20 doesn't matter. So .5 win differential.

I think the big change is we're going from a number of game manager type QBs who limited mistakes to Cousins who is a gunslinger high risk/reward type of QB. Teddy and Case were guys who didn't take a lot of risk and rarely turned the ball over. Cousins is a guy always trying to make a play, which leads to some fantastic throws but also some really ugly turnovers.

Hopefully over time Cousins will realize he doesn't need to shoulder everything with this team and it's okay to throw the ball away or tuck and run sometimes.

Cousins has a much better arm than Case judging by some of the throws he has made this season.
The only knock I have on Cousins is he also has 6 fumbles this season.

Myself I'm not quite ready to call Case a 1 year wonder. Denver has had a tough schedule this season. Chiefs they have played twice,Rams,Saints,Ravens.
He had a bad game against the Raiders. 2 games he put the team in a position to win, but has no control over the kicker. And Denver's D hasn't been the same since they let Wade Phillips go.
What we got from Case last year was truly a bargain at 2 million for the season.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:59 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:11 pm

Lol he’s also saying that we’d be better off keeping Teddy and a “solid backup” like what?

I don't agree but there is some reason why that would be better for this team. We are about to lose a lot of good players to FA due to our QB contract. I think it was worth it but unless we can replace these guys, we might end up breaking even.

Who are we losing? We should have enough for another big contract by the offseason. It will come down to Barr and Richardson and I take Richardson any day of the week. Outside of that, guys we could possibly lose are Murray, Jones, Easton, Sherels, Johnson, Compton, Iloka (who isnt playing anyways), Robinson, Harris, and a slew of backups. A decent amount of these guys will be kept on small one year deals. But we are losing nobody "big" due to Cousins contract. Most of our big time players are signed through 2020, including Cousins. So I dont buy that argument.