The curious case of Mike Wallace

[Mothman]

I don't disagree, but I can't really agree either, which I'm sure doesn't make any sense. What I mean is, this problem of ineffective passing games has existed so long and we've changed QB's, WR's, and even offensive coordinators enough times where I just can't lay the blame squarely on them anymore.

I get they could be better as I don't think Norv or Teddy are even close to perfect but a big part of the problem? I just can't buy it. The one common denominator over the last 6+ years is extremely poor offensive line play, despite all the changes elsewhere, the O-line is the one constantly negative aspect. It's also the one thing that could make all the other areas also seem like problems because poor O-line play hurts the QB, hurts the OC , hurts the WR's, and I'll even go as far to say it hurts Adrian in the running game too. When you lead the league in tackles for a loss that's an isolated problem, you know the o-line is failing as their 100% responsible for blocking for him.

When it comes to Wallace being benched, I think you have to look at things RIGHT NOW and what's happening. So even if Jim's right and it's time to look at Norv and Teddy as the real problems, Wallace isn't working, presumably because they can't make use of him or Teddy can't get him the ball.

Just to be clear, when I wrote that I didn't mean to imply the OL isn't problematic. I just assumed that's a given at this point, something we all see and acknowledge.

[losperros]

I said this in another thread, and I'll say it again ...

When people say Norv Turner is known for the vertical passing game, they're not talking about bombs. They're talking about how he coaches his receivers to run their routes deeper than other OCs. ALL ROUTES -- virtually every route in the tree is stretched vertically. Running longer routes takes more time. More time requires better protection. We don't have that.

I don't think it's right to just blame Teddy or blame Wallace or even the O-line, given that Norv is asking them to do things that aren't strengths. He's asking the O-line to protect longer, even on shorter stuff, and he's asking Teddy to make driving throws that aren't in his wheelhouse. It's just not working consistently.

Well, your assessment was worth repeating and it's very true. I'm surprised Zimmer isn't putting his foot down and insisting that Turner change up on his precious system.

[Mothman]

Well, your assessment was worth repeating and it's very true. I'm surprised Zimmer isn't putting his foot down and insisting that Turner change up on his precious system.

Honesty, I'm not surprised. After all, he hired Norv to run that system.

[The Breeze]

That's touching on my concern that there is little to no oversight on Norv...cause he's the offensive guru.
My understanding was that Zimmer brought him in not Spielman, although I doubt anyone had any reservations. I sure didn't.
It will be interesting to see how it unfolds...but I seriously don't see them moving away from Norv or Teddy anytime soon(like before the end of next season)
At the very least I would hope the move to friendlier blocking scheme for the line next season.

[fiestavike]

Obviously I'm in the minority, but I'm just not that interested in seeing them use some wrinkles, or change the system to accommodate some of their athletes, in order to score a few more points. I don't see that leading to a championship caliber team, even if it picks up another win or two in the short term..

I'm still pumped about Norv and Zimmer being the Vikings coaches for a LOOOOOONG time.

[Mothman]

I think they need better blockers more than they need a a friendlier blocking scheme but either way, improvement up front has to be a high priority.

From what I've seen lately, slower developing routes are more of an occasional problem. Blitz recognition and pick up seems a to be a big weakness of this Vikings team, at least it was last Sunday. Green bay disguised several blitzes well and just blew up plays because defenders had a clear lane to the QB.

More often than not, an NFL QB needs to get rid of the ball in 2.5-3 seconds unless he's going to extend the play with his legs and Bridgewater frequently seems to have that much time. Turner's calling a lot of plays that allow TB to get the ball out quickly and as I've said before, when he can do that, in rhythm, he looks sharp. However, Bridgewater has to be more decisive and show more trust in his receivers. He needs to help his teammates just as they need to help him.

There's room for improvement all over this offense.

[The Breeze]

I think Norv is a great coach and am super stoked heLs impacting these players.
I feel if his version or any version of the Air Coryell were successful or compatible in todays NFL, other teams would be using it liberally.
Maybe there are teams using it, I dunno. But like the Cover2 and lately the WCO, it's not succeessful for a few reasons, primarily due to leaguewide familiarity in knowing how to stop it.
If the philosophy in Mankato is that we are just going to get the athletes to force it on their opponents it could be awhile cause it's looking like there are multiple holes in tht regard.
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I'm glad Rudolfph showed up last week. A TE who can stretch the middle is huge in this system (winslow,gates,aikman's guy?)
I'd more or less given up on Kyle and a little pissed that it took him 10 weeks to get serious. He's actually dropped 2 TDs now.
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I could see them building this system if the line was closer, in spite of what I see as a bad fit with TB, but by that time many of the young guys on D will need new contracts along with TB.

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We'll see. Regardless, it's goingto be a good month for viking football.

[Mothman]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -peterson/

Vikings coach Mike Zimmer recently went out of his way to express appreciation to running back Adrian Peterson. Zimmer’s gesture may have been influenced by the reality that the team’s passing game is giving him little for which to be thankful.

With plenty of talent and potential, the performance simply hasn’t been there. Rookie Stefon Diggs has cooled off considerably after a four-game hot start to his career, and last year’s flavor-of-the-moment Charles Johnson has become a forgotten man, with three total catches since Week Three.

Then there’s former first-round pick Cordarrelle Patterson, who has been relegated primarily to kick-return duties. On NFL Network’s GameDay Morning, Michael Irvin said he was asked in the offseason by coach Mike Zimmer and offensive coordinator Norv Turner to work with Patterson on running intermediate routes — and the importance of wanting the ball more than the defense in that territory.

The article goes on to mention Wallace too and even links to a column Souhan wrote about him for the Star Tribune (I'm out of free Strib reads for November so I can't read it).

[soflavike]

Maybe the receivers aren't the problem. There's a pattern developing here in which talented, athletically gifted receivers aren't being very productive. It's time to look a LOT more closely at the playcaller and the guy throwing the football.

The list of ingredients for the perfect storm of passing ineptitude:
A) A very cautious, conservative young QB with questionable downfield arm strength/confidence
B) A set of WR's who are finding it hard to get enough separation downfield for the QB to pull the trigger
C) A very suspect offensive line that allows pressure to get to the QB with alarming frequency
D) The best running back in the league (makes it easy to turn away from the pass)
E) A system-oriented, older OC who wants to make players fit his system.

Did I leave anything out?

[Mothman]

The list of ingredients for the perfect storm of passing ineptitude:
A) A very cautious, conservative young QB with questionable downfield arm strength/confidence
B) A set of WR's who are finding it hard to get enough separation downfield for the QB to pull the trigger
C) A very suspect offensive line that allows pressure to get to the QB with alarming frequency
D) The best running back in the league (makes it easy to turn away from the pass)
E) A system-oriented, older OC who wants to make players fit his system.

Did I leave anything out?

I think you pressed all the buttons.

[The Breeze]

I'd suggest that a factor in the WRs struggling to get separation lies in the predictability of the system. It's decades old and defending it is known.
Throw in the liine play and most WRs are gonna suffer

[Mothman]

I'd suggest that a factor in the WRs struggling to get separation lies in the predictability of the system. It's decades old and defending it is known.

Again, it utilizes the same basic plays everybody else is using. I don't think that's the problem.

[fiestavike]

I'd suggest that a factor in the WRs struggling to get separation lies in the predictability of the system. It's decades old and defending it is known.
Throw in the liine play and most WRs are gonna suffer

just watch the play against ATL where Teddy throws it and instead of going up to high point the ball, Wallace has his hands at waist level, as he back pedals toward the sideline. The ball was nearly intercepted, and Wallace looked like a HS player who would get dragged off the field and cursed out. After all his drops, that was the last straw for me. He bailed on his teammates, and I cannot tolerate that. I hope his coaches won't tolerate it either.

[The Breeze]

I wasn't speaking directly about Wallace but the general statement of WRs not getting separation. The length of routes combined with the poor blocking is factor ....like it or not.

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There was also a really nice comebackroute that wallace ran and was open by a couple yards, but TB didn't release the ball in time and the defender closed the gap.
Much has been made about Bridgewater not trusting this or that receiver...but if he keeps failing to get them the ball when they do their job, I would think they they ultimately lose trust in him.
Being that Wallace has been the guy consistently missed downfield by TB...maybe it's affecting him?
Not saying it is or if so it would be justified.
But it happens.
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The mistakes that TB makes week in and out are basically the same types of errors CP84 makes. How is Bridgewater gonna be held accountable I wonder?
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I think they played well today(Wallce and TB) but again they left some plays on the field in habitual fashion.
Aside from a coupla grabs by Diggs an Wright, Rudolphf carried the passing game IMO.