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It is also worth mentioning that part of the reason Ponder wasn't taking deep shots was due to the desire of the coaches to not take a high number of these shots during any particular game this season. This was discussed on the board over the course of the season and the general conclusion was that it was due to a mixture of reasons. Here is short list:

1.) QB Mechanics were not consistent (this got a lot better in December)
2.) WR were not making plays on the ball. (Aromashadu missed a perfect ball at one point...)
3.) Coaches do not desire to take as many "shots" given effectiveness of rushing attack, and increased liklihood of a negative result.

IMO, item 1 is trending in the right direction. Item 2 "should" be better with a 2nd year JW, a healthy JS, and the addition of GJ.

So that leaves item 3, which i think is often ignored when it comes to criticizing Ponder. I think some of #3 during the first 12 games had to do with a lack of confidence in Ponder, quite understandable, especially in weeks 6-12. However, I think even with full confidence in Ponder this team is not going to take a bunch of downfield shots simply because they increase the liklihood of 3rd and long or worse, a turnover. Too much of that makes he a high risk/ high reward passing team and not a ball control offense. When you greatest strength is your rushing attack, you are not going to put yourself in that position.

As far as Ponder in 2013, I think what this shows is that he will now have an NFL caliber group of WR with some quality young pieces. That means it is all on Ponder to make it work. If we see an extended slump like we saw mid-season last year then Ponder's time her will end. There are now no excuses. I for one like his chances given his improvement, but at this point that is nothing more than an opinion. Time will tell.

mansquatch wrote:As far as Ponder in 2013, I think what this shows is that he will now have an NFL caliber group of WR with some quality young pieces. That means it is all on Ponder to make it work. If we see an extended slump like we saw mid-season last year then Ponder's time her will end. There are now no excuses. I for one like his chances given his improvement, but at this point that is nothing more than an opinion. Time will tell.

"No excuses?" Aaaaargh!

If you didn't see it yesterday, I commented on that oft-repeated phrase in another thread.

Anyway, regarding the caliber of the WRs: Jennings is an upgrade in terms of route-running and receiving skill but everyone else was on the team last year and Harvin is gone so at this point, it's not clear that Ponder has much more to work with at WR than he did a season ago. Jennings brings a different (and I believe more refined) skill set than Harvin did but he's not more talented. It's probably safe to assume another WR or two will be added to the roster but as far as I'm concerned, the receiving corps will have as much to prove as Ponder does this season. Simpson, in particular, has a lot to prove.

I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse but the o-line can't suffer the kind of breakdowns it did last year either. With a less mobile QB in the backfield, I suspect we could have added 10-15 sacks to the Vikings total allowed. Everyone involved in the passing game has plenty to prove, not just Ponder, and none of them deserve excuses. It's not all on the QB. It's all on everybody. They need to execute!

Jim I’m saying that failure will be more on Ponder’s shoulders since the blanket of a bunch of has been and never was WR won’t be there. However, the key term in that sentence that requires elaboration is “failure”. No NFL QB is perfect, they all throw picks and they all get incompletions.

To be honest, when it gets down to brass tacks I think what we are looking for is consistency or as I said above, a lot less Mr. Hyde. If you look at the stats, it is fair to ask for more yardage. However, his completion rate is above 60%. That might get to 65% which would be great, but into the 70s and now you are talking elite QB play. I’d love to see that, but I think expecting that is a bit ridiculous as a “make or break” measurement. Likewise, and this is really telling on his improvement, he had 12 INT last year. By Comparison, Rogers had 8. Now Rogers also had 100 more attempts, so there is something to say about rate of INT, however, improvement to elite level would be 3 or 4 less picks. That isn’t a lot of room to get better. If Ponder gets to single digits, that will be elite level play. (I think this is very possible.)

Overall, what I want to see is even play across 16 games and some more playmaking that forces defense to focus on more than #28. If #28 starts putting out 100 yard halves of football again, then all Ponder really needs to do is make a few clutch throws and protect the football. That is all it is going to take to get a win against most teams. I’ll take crap yardage in that situation. Why pass if you don’t need to?

The reality is that last season if Ponder doesn’t slump for 5-6 games we probably go 12-4 or 13-3 and have a bye in the playoffs. In that respect if we can get December 2012 Ponder for 14-16 games I think we are back in the post season and probably a little bit scary. Injuries will certainly be a factor in that…

Mothman wrote:Anyway, regarding the caliber of the WRs: Jennings is an upgrade in terms of route-running and receiving skill but everyone else was on the team last year and Harvin is gone so at this point, it's not clear that Ponder has much more to work with at WR than he did a season ago. Jennings brings a different (and I believe more refined) skill set than Harvin did but he's not more talented. It's probably safe to assume another WR or two will be added to the roster but as far as I'm concerned, the receiving corps will have as much to prove as Ponder does this season. Simpson, in particular, has a lot to prove.

I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse but the o-line can't suffer the kind of breakdowns it did last year either. With a less mobile QB in the backfield, I suspect we could have added 10-15 sacks to the Vikings total allowed. Everyone involved in the passing game has plenty to prove, not just Ponder, and none of them deserve excuses. It's not all on the QB. It's all on everybody. They need to execute!

No dead horses beaten at all. I don't care if the Vikings brought Tom Brady to the team (though as a Brady fan, I would really love it!), I would still want the team to seriously upgrade its WR corps and they'll need consistent pass blocking.

If Ponder can cut it as a franchise QB, that's great. If not, then he gets replaced. Regardless what happens at QB, the WRs and OL aren't off the hook either. I don't want any weak links in the passing game anymore, and the Vikings have had too many of them recently.

mansquatch wrote:Jim I’m saying that failure will be more on Ponder’s shoulders since the blanket of a bunch of has been and never was WR won’t be there. However, the key term in that sentence that requires elaboration is “failure”. No NFL QB is perfect, they all throw picks and they all get incompletions.

I understand. I just think we have to acknowledge that at this point, the receiver situation is very similar to last year and it doesn't look like any more veteran help will be arriving, although hopefully a talented rookie will be joining the roster soon. Other than Jennings, I think the WRs, like Ponder, have as much to prove as they did a year ago. Can Simpson and Wright bring more to the table than they did in 2012? I hope so (not that I was unhappy with Wright, who made some nice plays).

To be honest, when it gets down to brass tacks I think what we are looking for is consistency or as I said above, a lot less Mr. Hyde. If you look at the stats, it is fair to ask for more yardage. However, his completion rate is above 60%. That might get to 65% which would be great, but into the 70s and now you are talking elite QB play. I’d love to see that, but I think expecting that is a bit ridiculous as a “make or break” measurement. Likewise, and this is really telling on his improvement, he had 12 INT last year. By Comparison, Rogers had 8. Now Rogers also had 100 more attempts, so there is something to say about rate of INT, however, improvement to elite level would be 3 or 4 less picks. That isn’t a lot of room to get better. If Ponder gets to single digits, that will be elite level play. (I think this is very possible.)

Agreed, especially because several of his INTs last year were just careless and/or desperate throws.

Overall, what I want to see is even play across 16 games and some more playmaking that forces defense to focus on more than #28. If #28 starts putting out 100 yard halves of football again, then all Ponder really needs to do is make a few clutch throws and protect the football. That is all it is going to take to get a win against most teams. I’ll take crap yardage in that situation. Why pass if you don’t need to?

The reality is that last season if Ponder doesn’t slump for 5-6 games we probably go 12-4 or 13-3 and have a bye in the playoffs. In that respect if we can get December 2012 Ponder for 14-16 games I think we are back in the post season and probably a little bit scary. Injuries will certainly be a factor in that…

That's definitely possible. My point was just that it's not all about Ponder and I see no reason to make it all about Ponder. Everything I saw last year during that slump told me it occurred because of weaknesses in all 3 aspects of the passing game, not just because of the QB, which is why I don't think anybody gets any excuses and why I think the subtle difference between reasons and excuses is worth emphasizing. For example, when a QB under-throws a pass because he didn't set his feet properly and execute, that's his mistake. When he under-throws it because there was pressure in his face and he couldn't follow through on the throw, that's due to a problem elsewhere (assuming he didn't just hang onto the ball too long while receivers were running open). In other words, in that case, the pressure was the reason for the poor throw.

I absolutely agree with anyone who says Ponder needs to be more consistent and needs to raise his level of play and sustain it for an entire season. It's the "no excuses" stuff that irks me, because there were reasons Ponder was inconsistent last year and although they started with him, they didn't end there. Hopefully, everyone involved with the passing game will raise their game in 2013, not just Ponder.

The bigest issue for our team is that WE have AP....AP is the BabeRuth/MichaelJordan of the NFL....A RB only has so many years before he wears down. It will be an epic criminal waste to have him waste his career on a team that just never got a real QB. Ponder had it easy this year as every game the Defense spent the whole game throwing up 8 in a box. Even so he endlessly under threw receivers. If he does so again this year, there are no excuses that will mean ANYTHING.....we will need to buy a big name QB and give AP a real chance at a SuperBowl. The window is there but it will close.

That is a solid take with regards to Childress. The first thing the Spielman era did was draft a QB. Whether he pans out is yet to be known, but they have made the effort. There is no tried and true method to draft a QB. Manning was the #1 pick, Brady was #199.

Moth I do take issue with your view that the WR are not going to be better. JS played on an injured foot as well as other issues last year. It is quite fair to say we didn't see him at 100% for the entire season, which also makes it fair to argue that if he is healthy this year we'll see more from him. (That also should be taken to equal that the rest of the WR were so bad that the coaches felt an injured JS was still the better option.)

JW didn't really come on until last 1/3 to 1/4 of the season. He began to show ability, aside from injury there is no reason to think that trajectory will not conitune. OVerall, better than last season.

GJ is a true #1 WR. The Packers last year had the best overall WR corps last season and within that group GJ was considered the best. No he isn't Harvin, but he also does things Harvin doesn't do as well.

The overall point here is that all 3 of these players will be better than what we saw on the field for the latter half of last season. It won't be a WR corps where you just double up PH and KR and ignore the rest. That will give them more favorable coverages.

I agree on protection being an issue, but I also think that this group having continuity will help. The protection did get better towards the end of the season.

mansquatch wrote:Moth I do take issue with your view that the WR are not going to be better.

I apologize for not being more succinct. I didn't intend to suggest they wouldn't be better. I think they probably will be better. I said they have as much to prove as they did a year ago and that, at this point, the receiver situation is very similar to last year. In other words, I expect the WR situation to be better but they haven't demonstrated that yet. All I'm saying is just like Ponder, they need to go out and actually show us they're better.

The overall point here is that all 3 of these players will be better than what we saw on the field for the latter half of last season.

They should be better. All I'm saying is let's see what they actually do rather than assuming what they will do and then declaring (based on that assumption) that it's all on Ponder. Simpson and Wright should be better. A good rookie WR should be better than Jenkins or Aromashodu. Heck, Ponder should be better too but none of them are better just yet.

Sorry, I know it seems like a small point but I think it seems like a significant one to me.

I agree on protection being an issue, but I also think that this group having continuity will help. The protection did get better towards the end of the season.

It did and as with the other aspects of the passing game, I think (and hope) that improvement will continue. I'm actually very optimistic about the passing game taking a big step forward this year!

One thing is for sure; if Ponder plays better he won't have any excuses.

I actually think it is safe to say "it will be better". The reason is that last season the coaching staff felt that an injured Jerome Simpson was still better than most the rest of the depth chart. That isn't saying JS is amazing, it is recognizing how collossally bad the WR were. So to my point, the bar last year was depressingly low. So to say they will be better isn't an extreme statement IMO. Of course the injuy bug could throw that out the window, but you get my drift.

Whether they will be competitive is something else, but I like where they are going.

losperros wrote:If Ponder can cut it as a franchise QB, that's great. If not, then he gets replaced. Regardless what happens at QB, the WRs and OL aren't off the hook either. I don't want any weak links in the passing game anymore, and the Vikings have had too many of them recently.

That pretty much says it all.

Cliff wrote:One thing is for sure; if Ponder plays better he won't have any excuses.

mansquatch wrote:I actually think it is safe to say "it will be better". The reason is that last season the coaching staff felt that an injured Jerome Simpson was still better than most the rest of the depth chart. That isn't saying JS is amazing, it is recognizing how collossally bad the WR were. So to my point, the bar last year was depressingly low. So to say they will be better isn't an extreme statement IMO. Of course the injuy bug could throw that out the window, but you get my drift.

Whether they will be competitive is something else, but I like where they are going.

I do too. All I was really trying to say is that we should hold the players to the same standard.

I look at this as a process and frankly, you look at the past 2 seasons and it is hard not to look back at Childress with utter contempt and incredulity. Look at where his management left this team, it is just disgusting.

Obviously the time to give Spielman/Frasier a pass is over, but I continue to be impressed with how well this management team has progressed in acquiring talent and rebuilding the team. I think we as fans tend to view this as occuring in a Vaccum, but the reality is they are having this success in a competitive environment, which makes it even more impressive.

That is a big reason why I'm unabashedly optimistic about their potential. This management team has done very well IMO and they give me confidence. They are not all the way there yet, but they have done a lot more good than bad so far.

Didn't want to start a new thread. Kind of relates. I don't know how I feel about this, though it's probably not dramatic. Just not in the red zone, Leslie. More opportunities for Carlson and, hopefully, Ellison. Not in favor of taking talented pass-catchers off the field.

Frazier said #Vikings want to take some snaps off Kyle Rudolph, who rarely left field last season. Coaches think that hurt productivity.

Tom Pelissero on Twitter

dead_poet wrote:Didn't want to start a new thread. Kind of relates. I don't know how I feel about this, though it's probably not dramatic. Just not in the red zone, Leslie. More opportunities for Carlson and, hopefully, Ellison. Not in favor of taking talented pass-catchers off the field.
Tom Pelissero on Twitter

I don't have a problem with it, especially if they feel it hurt his productivity. As you said, we're probably not talking about a dramatic reduction in snaps.

mansquatch wrote:I look at this as a process and frankly, you look at the past 2 seasons and it is hard not to look back at Childress with utter contempt and incredulity. Look at where his management left this team, it is just disgusting.

It sure is... his approach managed to open the briefest of windows for a serious run at a championship but once they came up short, the bill had to be paid for Chili's short term thinking and the cost was heavy.