Vikes/Lions post-game thoughts

[DarthBrooks]

From this photo, it seems to me that the best read is throwing to Gerhardt. BTW, we've seen Gerhardt break tackles before. I wish it could have happened this time, but even though it didn't, I like Ponder's choice on this one.

The two Vikings WR's you can see look like they've wandering into the same area. The furthest (away from us) receiver should have been in the back of the endzone. Although it looks like Ponder could have moved some to his left to buy some time he wouldn't have bought much.

[Mothman]

The only thing is this photo is showing a 9 on 9 play, there's two more Viking and two more Lion players that aren't captured. Until the coaches tape comes out, it's tough to say where that ball should have gone. I'm hoping at least one of the Viking receivers ran a route to the back of the endzone.

Wright did. There are shots where you can see him at the back of the endzone. Aromashodu wasn't visible in the TV view so I'm guessing he went to the right endzone. On the broadcast John Lynch said nobody was open in the endzone so at this point, I'm taking his word that Aromashodu wasn't any more open than the other 3 receivers.

[Mothman]

The two Vikings WR's you can see look like they've wandering into the same area. The furthest (away from us) receiver should have been in the back of the endzone. Although it looks like Ponder could have moved some to his left to buy some time he wouldn't have bought much.

Good observation. I'm not sure why that outside receiver's route is leading him toward Rudolph and the double coverage inside. I have to wonder if that receiver is where he's supposed to be and if he is, why they wanted him there.

[S197]

Good observation. I'm not sure why that outside receiver's route is leading him toward Rudolph and the double coverage inside. I have to wonder if that receiver is where he's supposed to be and if he is, why they wanted him there.

It might have been to bait the safety forward so Wright or aroma could run a crossing route in the back of the endzone. Or it was a poor route. When do they make the coaches tape available?

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[Mothman]

It might have been to bait the safety forward so Wright or aroma could run a crossing route in the back of the endzone.

Good point.

Or it was a poor route. When do they make the coaches tape available?

Not until Wednesday...

[losperros]

Not until Wednesday...

The decoy theory is valid but the poor route is also a possibility (and not even that it was poorly designed). Who is the WR? Is it Simpson? I read somewhere that the coaches feel Simpson doesn't always run his routes well.

The coaches tape will hopefully tell the story. Now I'm really curious about it.

[John_Viveiros]

It's easy to play QB from home. I think this is just a play where the Lions did a good job and kept the Vikings out of the endzone. Sometimes the defense wins a battle and you just have to give them credit.

Probably, given that the play ended after the completion. As I watched it, I thought Toby would have had to break three or so tackles to have made a TD (I think chances may have been better for a Gearhart fumble than a TD in that circumstance). So the difference between this play and a sack was what?

I think the great QB's have situational awareness. Scramble and keep the play alive. See if a receiver breaks open in the end zone. Take a sack if it comes. It still results in a Walsh FG. Note that this isn't the case at the 30 yard line, or in your own end of the field. But here... go for the TD.

[VikingLord]

I missed most of the game, unfortunately, but I am curious what people think about Ponder's performance. In looking at the stats and reading the comments it sounds like Ponder did well, but in reading Kevin Siefert's blog over at espn.com it sounds like it was mostly another dink-and-dunk performance with the exception of the deep ball to Wright.

Was Ponder staying in the pocket and stepping into his throws, or did he have happy feet again? It looks like he was actually spreading the ball around pretty well, so that is positive, but were his throws accurate and was he decisive with them?

I guess what I want to know in an unbiased way is did Ponder really improve over what we've seen, or were the same issues there with different results, perhaps because the Vikings were at home or perhaps because the Lions didn't play that well?

Sorry to be a "doubting Ponder", but after what we've seen the last several weeks I'm just not convinced by the box score and a single big hitter down the field.

[Mothman]

Probably, given that the play ended after the completion. As I watched it, I thought Toby would have had to break three or so tackles to have made a TD (I think chances may have been better for a Gearhart fumble than a TD in that circumstance). So the difference between this play and a sack was what?

I think the great QB's have situational awareness. Scramble and keep the play alive. See if a receiver breaks open in the end zone. Take a sack if it comes. It still results in a Walsh FG. Note that this isn't the case at the 30 yard line, or in your own end of the field. But here... go for the TD.

To who? Again, it's easy to play QB from home and make comments about the great QBs and situational awareness but on that play, there was nothing there. Peyton Manning wasn't likely to make any more out of it than Ponder did.

I'd say Ponder showed situational awareness there. Why take a sack when there's an open receiver? Isn't that the kind of thing he has been blasted for all season? Is there any doubt he'd be getting blasted for it now if he'd run around and been sacked with a player wide open at the 8?

Look, I understand that people want the QB to make a big play in that situation but the only place he was going to be able to scramble was left and there was no play to be made on that side of the field.

[Mothman]

I missed most of the game, unfortunately, but I am curious what people think about Ponder's performance. In looking at the stats and reading the comments it sounds like Ponder did well, but in reading Kevin Siefert's blog over at espn.com it sounds like it was mostly another dink-and-dunk performance with the exception of the deep ball to Wright.

Was Ponder staying in the pocket and stepping into his throws, or did he have happy feet again? It looks like he was actually spreading the ball around pretty well, so that is positive, but were his throws accurate and was he decisive with them?

Yes, he was accurate, decisive and did a much better job of staying the pocket and stepping into his throws. He was markedly better then he'd been in the previous 3 games.

You don't have to just take my word for it. Here's Pelissero's take:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Brea ... Vikings%29

A strike for 54 yards to the post on his second throw might have been just what Christian Ponder (70 snaps) needed to loosen up. He just looked more comfortable while moving in and out of the pocket, going through his progressions and delivering the ball with authority, even in the face of pressure. He finished 24-of-32 passing (75%) for 221 yards, two touchdowns and a 114.2 rating. All but five of Ponder's completions (80%, including one negated by penalty) were targeted less than 10 yards downfield, and he didn't throw another ball more than 15 yards downfield after the early bomb. But he was an efficient 5-of-8 passing (62.5%) in the intermediate game, didn't let himself get rushed into poor decisions and took only one sack -- an ankle grab by DT Nick Fairley in 4.6 seconds. OC Bill Musgrave appeared to give him more crossing patterns and layered slants to help receivers uncover more quickly. When Lions DC Gunther Cunningham did send pressure (eight times in 33 dropbacks, 24.2%), Ponder always seemed to have someplace to go with the ball. The crowd booed when the offense settled for a several field goals, but what was he supposed to do? LE Chris Avril's deflection put the ball back in Ponder's hands for a 15-yard loss, so he took the outlet for 8 on third-and-23 instead of going deep again to make sure they got three. One of three drops left the Vikings facing third-and-7 in the red zone and the post-corner took too long to develop, so Ponder checked to the flat and gave his back a chance to break a tackle. A lineman's misstep on first-and-goal from the 3 left the Vikings at the 10, the screen was covered up on second down and everything in the end zone was covered on third, so Ponder checked down twice more. That's not a lack of guts -- that's what the Vikings want him to do. He turned the corner on a 20-yard scramble, was flagged for a delay of game when the play clock expired and took a hit from DT Sammie Hill that brought out a flag, sealing a decision. This was the only way for Ponder to quiet calls for his job, even if the Vikings were never going to give in. Now he needs to build on that over the next six games -- and continue finding more plays down the field to give opposing coordinators pause.

The first sentence I highlighted is emphasized because I know you're interested in further development of the intermediate passing game (I am too). The second sentence I highlighted pertains to the conversation going on about the red zone checkdown to Gerhart.

[indianation65]

Repeat...the yellow collar is so obstructive. What a bad look.

...wisdom

[Mothman]

Repeat...the yellow collar is so obstructive. What a bad look.

...wisdom

I barely even notice it at this point.

[John_Viveiros]

To who? Again, it's easy to play QB from home and make comments about the great QBs and situational awareness but on that play, there was nothing there. Peyton Manning wasn't likely to make any more out of it than Ponder did.

So you see enough from this picture (or from the video) so that you know that no receiver could ever have come open in the end zone, given more time. That's pretty impressive.

...The receiver at the top of the screen, at the back corner, after Ponder scrambles left and fakes an inside throw. Peyton could hit that. And his receivers would know it and move there once the first pattern was closed off. I'm not certain Peyton could have done that in year two. But I have no doubt he'd see it now.

[losperros]

From Tom Pelissero:

...OC Bill Musgrave appeared to give him more crossing patterns and layered slants to help receivers uncover more quickly.

I thought this was a big help on several plays. I also would like to see the slants and crossing patterns used more often with burners like Harvin (when he's back) and Wright.

[Mothman]

So you see enough from this picture (or from the video) so that you know that no receiver could ever have come open in the end zone, given more time. That's pretty impressive.

I didn't say no receiver could ever come open in the endzone if Ponder had been able to buy enough time but it wasn't likely. I saw nothing to indicate that a scramble was likely to lead to success or that a WR was going to free up in the endzone.

The receiver at the top of the screen, at the back corner, after Ponder scrambles left and fakes an inside throw. Peyton could hit that. And his receivers would know it and move there once the first pattern was closed off. I'm not certain Peyton could have done that in year two. But I have no doubt he'd see it now..

You're talking about an imaginary play. On the actual play, there was no receiver at the top of the screen in the back left hand corner. Even if Simpson had broken off his route and tried to get there or if Wright had come all the way across to that location (thus placing 3 Vikings and 5 Lions in the left hand portion of the endzone), is there any reason to assume the defenders wouldn't have been able to stick to them? Could Ponder have even kept the play alive that long? There's not a lot of room remaining to his left.

Static images are useful for the sake of illustrating a particular moment in a play but they are snapshots of players in motion so they can be deceptive. Maybe the one I posted is misleading in some way. Here's a sequence showing more of the play:






At no point are Simpson and Rudolph open. You can't see Wright here (I cropped the image slightly to take some of the tool buttons out) but #24 is in great position to undercut him and make a pick if Ponder throws that way. We don't know what's going on with Aromashodu on the other side of the field.

The only way I can see a scramble working on that play is if Simpson's defender was undisciplined enough to break off his coverage before Ponder crossed the LoS, potentially leaving Simpson open. However, there's a safety right behind Rudolph and Simpson is heading toward him so even if the CB breaks away from Simpson, that safety could conceivably pick him up. He's in position to break on a pass thrown to either Simpson or Rudolph.

Sometimes the defense just makes a good play. Criticizing Ponder on this one is really nitpicking.