Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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Mothman
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

Post by Mothman »

VikingLord wrote:I just find that hard to believe. You have one of the league's worst pass defenses, they're forced to stack the box to stop AD so you know you're going to get single coverage and/or broader zones, you're at home, and the Vikings took full advantage of that? I mean, the film doesn't lie, but that's hard for me to believe they could be *that* pathetic.
It wasn't pretty so I hope those alarm bells you mentioned are going off. Maybe receivers would have come open on some of those plays where Ponder was pressured in under 3 seconds...
VikingLord wrote:I see a fundamental issue - absolutely no defensive lineman or linebacker pays any attention to Ponder. They are *not* concerned about him at all.
They obviously didn't buy the play fake. I wonder if that was a first down play? If so, it's pretty easy to understand why they'd key on Peterson, although it's not like that's hard to understand anyway...
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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Zulgad and Pelissero talk Vikings, including some talk in the first half of the video about why the Vikes were focused on fundamentals at the beginning of this week:

http://www.1500espn.com/videos/another_ ... in_seattle
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

Post by Demi »

Now I understand how Coaches can stick with this guys well past when they should. They must be seeing what they want to see.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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Mothman wrote:Zulgad and Pelissero talk Vikings, including some talk in the first half of the video about why the Vikes were focused on fundamentals at the beginning of this week:

http://www.1500espn.com/videos/another_ ... in_seattle
Interesting video. I think the bad fundamentals dynamic has been proven to be true. Actually, I can't think of any physical sport or skill that works well without basic technique at its core.

Also, as Zulgad said, this team can't afford any mistakes because they can't make up for them within a game.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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You would think that is the case, but consider a player like Randy Moss. Would you say he has great fundamentals? I wouldn't. For Moss, it didn't matter though, he ran the move devestating deep post the league has probably ever seen and because of that he could get away with all the other BS. That is a typical issue with extreme athletic talents, they are so good at what they do that they succumb to laziness. That isn't always the case, of course.

In David Maraniss' biography on Vince Lombardy he cites some interviews with some of Lombardi's players. One of the comments that stuck out in my mind was that amazing talents take plays off. The team would get 75% effort out of them. They'd take plays off. The player then said that the great thing about Lombardi was that he would find a way to get that last 25%.
I'm not saying that the Vikings are lazy, just that it isn't surprising that even pros can get lazy with the basics.

One of the reaons I think AP is so great is that he strikes me as a talent who is not lazy. That guy works and works and works to be the best. I only hope his attitude is infectious. His recovery this year was a testament to that work ethic and desire.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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mansquatch wrote:You would think that is the case, but consider a player like Randy Moss. Would you say he has great fundamentals? I wouldn't. For Moss, it didn't matter though, he ran the move devestating deep post the league has probably ever seen and because of that he could get away with all the other BS. That is a typical issue with extreme athletic talents, they are so good at what they do that they succumb to laziness. That isn't always the case, of course.

In David Maraniss' biography on Vince Lombardy he cites some interviews with some of Lombardi's players. One of the comments that stuck out in my mind was that amazing talents take plays off. The team would get 75% effort out of them. They'd take plays off. The player then said that the great thing about Lombardi was that he would find a way to get that last 25%.
I'm not saying that the Vikings are lazy, just that it isn't surprising that even pros can get lazy with the basics.

One of the reaons I think AP is so great is that he strikes me as a talent who is not lazy. That guy works and works and works to be the best. I only hope his attitude is infectious. His recovery this year was a testament to that work ethic and desire.
I completely agree about Adrian Peterson. Nothing lazy about that guy. Yes, I hope the passion he brings to the game rubs off on the entire team.

Regarding Randy Moss, it might be semantic gymnastics when it comes to fundamentals, but I have to disagree with you. Does he have solid technique? Yes, I believe he does. Moss once described on ESPN some of the basic techniques he uses to run deep routes. It isn't all just speed. He also checks both safeties and their pursuit angles, keeps his hands low during the route (so that the defender never knows when the ball is coming), and he tries to start every route the same way for a couple steps to confuse the defenders about what kind of route he's actually running.

Quite honestly, I believe there is basic technique needed in everything that's done athletically. I know that as a martial artist and when I played football. When I was young (long before the earth's crust cooled :D ), I used to run track. I can tell you right now that proper technique and fundamentals can help one beat the stopwatch. I see it all the time during the combines when guys using the proper running fundamentals clock surprising times. That's partly why some 4.4/40 RBs and WRs have 4.6/40 LBs and DBs catch them from behind on a football field. And speaking of DBs and LBs, keep in mind that proper fundamentals includes picking angles for closing distance on the ball carrier.

Back to track fundamentals, Moss also is a well trained runner. He knows how to find an extra gear by running 3/4 speed almost effortlessly down field until he needs the burst. Smaller backs have to take more steps than Moss, who uses a long stride to cover more ground (the long stride is partly why tall receivers can be deep threats, even if they don't clock great times). Then again, Moss also knows how to clock well, being well trained in track. Don't forget that Moss won the West Virginia State Championships in the 100 and 200 meter events during college. Personally, I think Moss is a walking textbook of fundamentals, though his attitude may not always indicate that.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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I do not disagree that physical stuff must be in place at the NFL level. My point is that some people are gifted and their gifts cut them slack in certain areas. Case in point: Imagine if you put Jerry Rice's head in Randy Moss' body.

It also isn't just the physical stuff. In the Tampa game we were not gap sound in the 1st half and paid the price. Gap control is fairly basic. That isn't a physical thing so much as a mental one. Ponder making costly decisions is the same. It is a fundemental of QB play to not throw across your body, yet he does it.

The NFL games happens very fast, so it wouldn't shock me if guys were taking small short cuts that were costing the team. Football... inches... you know.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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Oh, I agree with you about the speed of the game and the shortcuts. And I didn't mean fundamentals are purely physical, which is why I used Moss as an example because he is thinking about what he's seeing on the field while he's running a route.

I don't think one needs to put Jerry Rice's head on Randy Moss' body. Moss is a package deal and the way his brain feeds info from what he sees on the field is part of who he is. Maybe Rice was better, but even if that's true, Moss is still Moss and he was a truly great WR.

Understanding technique both mentally and physically sets a person free to create. Certainly creativity comes from one's mind and heart, and not just their physical skills.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

Post by S197 »

Sorry for the late reply work has been madness.
Mothman wrote:They run quite a few wider sets too so they aren't all that limited but I see your point. It's easier for the defense to stack 8 men in the box against tight formations but the extra personnel inside should make it easier to block from those formations too. The Vikings run very effectively out of those formations. For example, the back-to-back 11 yard runs Peterson had to start the Vikings 4th possession against TB both came out of tight formations and so did his 64 yard TD run. That one is a great example because it shows how the defense is more vulnerable on the edge against a set like that.
True, more personnel does mean more blockers but it also creates a busier pocket. Just as an example, in a bunched set, if you have 7 blockers and 7 rushers, Ponder has 14 bodies around him at any given time. Even if they're being blocked effectively, they're getting their hands up, pushing his linemen towards him, etc. Spread it out a little and maybe it's 5 on 5, so 10 bodies. Not always, as you mention AD does run effectively out of those sets, just spread it out a little more often.

We may not have the talent to put defenses in a dime set but we should certainly be able to get them into a nickel at least.
Thanks for grabbing those shots and putting that post together. I definitely agree with the need for some more creativity.
No problem, I don't have the coaches tape so I had to piecemeal together. I think you can certainly see more than me with the access you have so I appreciate your input.
Loadholt, Felton and Rudolph all try and fail to connect with LBs, who kill the play. I don't know if AD was supposed to follow Felton and if his shift to the left pulled the LBs away from their respective blockers or if Felton was a decoy and the Vikings were hoping the LBs would follow his lead. I'm guessing it was the former. It's possible that AD improvised and it didn't go well.

Rudolph was forced wide by #90 and couldn't get back inside. Loadholt ran at his man as if he was a statue would just stay on the spot. I don't know what Felton was doing. It almost looked like he was carrying out a fake. It seemed like he had a chance to hit Loadholt's linebacker.
It certainly wasn't flawless execution on that play but I think even if some of the blocks were made (I think that was a lot to ask of Loadholt, he's not really the downfield athletic type, maybe Kalil makes that block) that play doesn't go for more than a few yards. The one thing I noticed is on that play, Ponder drops back like he's gone to pass and none of the 3 LB's bite. I think that's what I was trying to get at, we need to keep the defense honest, we can't feign a drop back when everyone knows AD is getting the ball.

It was just one play so I don't want to overly dissect it, I was just trying to provide a small collage of examples to try and get across the point about not spreading out the field.

I think most of us are in agreement that there's no one single issue at hand that will fix this offense so I'm not trying to say just changing formations will be the cure for our offensive woes but I think with all the focus on Ponder and the receivers, I wanted to look at another aspect of the game that could be potentially hurting us.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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S197 wrote:It certainly wasn't flawless execution on that play but I think even if some of the blocks were made (I think that was a lot to ask of Loadholt, he's not really the downfield athletic type, maybe Kalil makes that block) that play doesn't go for more than a few yards. The one thing I noticed is on that play, Ponder drops back like he's gone to pass and none of the 3 LB's bite. I think that's what I was trying to get at, we need to keep the defense honest, we can't feign a drop back when everyone knows AD is getting the ball..

I'm not quite sure I follow you on that last comment. I'm not sure what feigning the dropback after handoff has to do with keeping defenses honest or how it hurts anything. However, I'm pretty tired so I may be missing something obvious. :)

I agree that asking Loadholt to get that level that quickly might be asking a lot. Ir Rudolph had been able to take a more direct path to that first LB , I think the play might have had a shot to be a big gainer.

Anyway, I see your larger point about tight formations and the inside congestion they can create. As I said, they have their benefits and their drawbacks and all that traffic in the box is definitely one of the drawbacks.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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Mothman wrote:I'm not quite sure I follow you on that last comment. I'm not sure what feigning the dropback after handoff has to do with keeping defenses honest or how it hurts anything. However, I'm pretty tired so I may be missing something obvious. :)
Oh, all I meant was on that particular play Ponder's dropback like he was going to pass didn't fool anyone. None of the LB's bit and all stayed in their gaps waiting for AD to get the handoff. Hope that makes a little more sense, I'm pretty tired myself. :(
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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S197 wrote: Oh, all I meant was on that particular play Ponder's dropback like he was going to pass didn't fool anyone. None of the LB's bit and all stayed in their gaps waiting for AD to get the handoff. Hope that makes a little more sense, I'm pretty tired myself. :(

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying...

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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

Post by PurpleKoolaid »

If Ponder could hook up with Devin or Simpson on the deep outside routes, this whole fundamentals/execution things would be gone. Just 4 or 5 passes a game to both of them, like normal teams do, and PH and AD would once again be open. And maybe Musgrave would call Kyles number over the middle.
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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Thought this was a good writeup. Essentially what Jim's been doing an excellent job at pointing out recently.

Blame is widespread for what ails Vikings' offense
The Vikings' inability to neutralize extra pass rushers, throw the ball efficiently under duress and provide open passing targets has been a problem for three consecutive games
A closer look at these five plays from the Buccaneers game makes it easier to believe Frazier when he says the problem isn't isolated on quarterback Christian Ponder or any other one individual:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... ml?refer=y
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Re: Harvin: Fundamentals Killing Us

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dead_poet wrote:Thought this was a good writeup. Essentially what Jim's been doing an excellent job at pointing out recently.
Thanks for the link! Good article...

I remember the last play Mark Craig describes well, although in my effort to go through the offensive plays last week, I see that I and forgot to transcribe that 3rd quarter possession. I watched it a bunch of times but forgot to write it down. :( It was another ugly 3 and out so it was pretty typical of the game but I still feel bad. I apologize for the mistake. I tried to be thorough but was squeezing all that play-by-play analysis into lunch breaks and such, while I dealt with a heavy workload. Still dealing with it...

Anyway, here's Mark Craig's description of the play:
5. Third quarter, first-and-10 from the Vikings 31.

The Bucs sent a game-high eight rushers on this particular play. By then, they were blitzing as much or more to stop Peterson as to rattle Ponder.

If you freeze the tape, there's a split second that might define what being a young QB in the NFL is all about. Ponder had defenders all around him and was about to get sacked by linebacker Mason Foster. But right before Ponder ducked to accept the sack, he appeared to see Kyle Rudolph waving his arms in the middle of the field.

There was nothing between Rudolph and the end zone but fake grass and one single-high safety off in the distance. It would have been a huge gain, but Ponder didn't pull the trigger.
Hmm... let's freeze that tape, shall we? In the first shot, we see Ponder at the top of his dropback. Rudolph is visible at the lower right but Ponder's eyes are downfield and his first read is clearly to the right. Foster (#59) is already on his way, unblocked.

Image

Here's the play a brief moment later, in two still shots. The second is the TV view and this is almost the exact same moment from two different vantage points. It's as close as I could get. Ponder seems to see Rudolph but he hasn't set his feet due to the unblocked rusher. To me, it looks like he'd have to throw almost directly into the rush to properly lead Rudolph. Keep in mind these are still shots but the players in motion and all of this takes place in about two seconds (if that).
Image
Image

Here's it's too late. Rudolph's open but Ponder is about to go down.

Image

Could Ponder have pulled the trigger on this play? I honestly don't know. It looks possible but all of this happened fast. He would have had to make the choice to throw at basically the same moment he locked eyes on Rudolph because that moment was all he had left. As M. Craig wrote, that moment might define what being a young QB in the NFL is all about. Maybe Peyton Manning or Tom Brady makes that throw but I'm inclined to think it would take that kind of experience and confidence to make the choice as quickly as it was required. It's a shame because it could have been a huge play.
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