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Could you imagine Diggs, Patterson and Doctson linning up with Peterson in the backfield...one can dream

Thanks for the link, Dead_Poet.

I thought this was interesting:

When I asked him if Patterson was in the coaches dog house, he said he was unaware of any issues with any of the of the Vikings coaching staff. He went on to say that he personally knows and stays in touch with Vikings assistant defensive line coach Robert Rodriguez who told him Patterson has shown a great attitude, is working hard and doing everything that is being asked of him.

That isn't the first time we've heard that.

Mothman wrote: Good point. he's clearly a versatile player.

It seems to come down to details and perhaps, some attitude issues on one or both sides. The coaching staff doesn't seem to trust Patterson to do "the little things" and they've taken a hard line with him about it Perhaps that will ultimately be good. I don't know.

I'd rather see him on the field contributing and learning, even if he has to learn from some mistakes. Zimmer was recently quoted saying the following in regard to his young QB:
Why be so forgiving of the idea that one young player might make mistakes while learning and contributing while simultaneously relegating Patterson to the bench? Put him out there, get the ball in his hands and if he's in the wrong place once in a while, use it as a teaching moment and "play pretty good defense".

They just started Wallace for an entire season and he didn't produce much more than Patterson did in 7 starts and some spot play in 2014. What have they got to lose?

Agree totally Jim......

autobon7 wrote:
Agree totally Jim......

This is my disconnect with all of you. I read that quote and it's "clear" to me that it means the issue is far beyond what Zimmer has with Teddy. I don't get how someone could read that quote from Zimmer and the first assumption is that he is basically being inconsistent

That evidence to me proves that Patterson has DEEPER issues than Teddy. Not that Zimmer is treating them differently.

IrishViking wrote:This is my disconnect with all of you. I read that quote and it's "clear" to me that it means the issue is far beyond what Zimmer has with Teddy. I don't get how someone could read that quote from Zimmer and the first assumption is that he is basically being inconsistent

That wasn't my first assumption. I just used the quote to make a point.

That evidence to me proves that Patterson has DEEPER issues than Teddy. Not that Zimmer is treating them differently.

Nevertheless, the inconsistency is there. This staff has been quite willing to let some young players learn on the job and make mistakes. However, once Patterson was benched, they practically wrote him off as an option, despite the fact that we hear again and again that his attitude is fine and he works hard. They've taken what appears to be a particularly hard line with him.

Mothman wrote: That wasn't my first assumption. I just used the quote to make a point.
Nevertheless, the inconsistency is there. This staff has been quite willing to let some young players learn on the job and make mistakes. However, once Patterson was benched, they practically wrote him off as an option, despite the fact that we hear again and again that his attitude is fine and he works hard. They've taken what appears to be a particularly hard line with him.

I agree that they are treating him differently then some other "growth" players. However it is only inconsistent if he and, for example, Teddy are behaving the same way on and off the field and being treated differently. my theory is that this evidence indicate that the problem is more severe with Patterson, probably in private, off the field. Tape room, one on ones, whatever it might be. But that something "worse" is going on with Patterson. Not to say there is bad blood or laziness taking place, simply that the issues are more severe with him thus the more severe response.

IrishViking wrote: I agree that they are treating him differently then some other "growth" players. However it is only inconsistent if he and, for example, Teddy are behaving the same way on and off the field and being treated differently. my theory is that this evidence indicate that the problem is more severe with Patterson, probably in private, off the field. Tape room, one on ones, whatever it might be. But that something "worse" is going on with Patterson. Not to say there is bad blood or laziness taking place, simply that the issues are more severe with him thus the more severe response.

It's obvious the coaches have a reason for dealing differently with Patterson so I understand what you're saying. I just question their approach and whether they've tried to do enough to help him improve.

Mothman wrote: It's obvious the coaches have a reason for dealing differently with Patterson so I understand what you're saying. I just question their approach and whether they've tried to do enough to help him improve.

I don't envy them. FWIW I completely understand your point; Patterson's big play potential being worth any "rawness" risks. I trust Zimmer to make the right calls but this could very well be his personality shining through. He strikes me as the sort of coach who wants a well oiled machine, where the sum is greater than the value of the parts. So he will stock up on playmakers left and right but they need to function inside his system. That if Barr or Smith go down since its a "sum system" the hit is less when he plugs in less talented back ups then if he tailor made a defense to maximize Smith or Barr's ability. You see this more often on Offense. Not to say he doesn't use them effectively but I would say that he doesn't quite hit the level of basically scheming his defenses to have his 2 best players be in every play every down. I would expect he wants to emulate the Patriots to a certain degree. Brady aside, they have a pretty steady rotation going on, on offense and it is sorta a plug and play system. My guess is that ideally he is hoping for a poor man's Brady out of Teddy and to build the best defense in the league.

All that said the point is, that perhaps Patterson just doesn't appealing to him as a player. He doesn't want the gimmicky or the situational player as much as he wants an all around player. Short term I think you are right, he would have success. Long term, idk. I think both approaches could work but I think Zimmer wants consistency

IrishViking wrote:I don't envy them. FWIW I completely understand your point; Patterson's big play potential being worth any "rawness" risks. I trust Zimmer to make the right calls but this could very well be his personality shining through. He strikes me as the sort of coach who wants a well oiled machine, where the sum is greater than the value of the parts. So he will stock up on playmakers left and right but they need to function inside his system. That if Barr or Smith go down since its a "sum system" the hit is less when he plugs in less talented back ups then if he tailor made a defense to maximize Smith or Barr's ability. You see this more often on Offense. Not to say he doesn't use them effectively but I would say that he doesn't quite hit the level of basically scheming his defenses to have his 2 best players be in every play every down. I would expect he wants to emulate the Patriots to a certain degree. Brady aside, they have a pretty steady rotation going on, on offense and it is sorta a plug and play system. My guess is that ideally he is hoping for a poor man's Brady out of Teddy and to build the best defense in the league.

All that said the point is, that perhaps Patterson just doesn't appealing to him as a player. He doesn't want the gimmicky or the situational player as much as he wants an all around player. Short term I think you are right, he would have success. Long term, idk. I think both approaches could work but I think Zimmer wants consistency

I think he does too but I also think this could be a reflection of his impatience.

My take on this has always been that the best way to make Patterson a better, more consistent all-around player is to utilize him, to keep him high enough on the depth chart that he gets plenty of practice reps, plenty of experience, and at least a reasonable percentage of it with the starters. For me, it's never just been about the short term benefits of big plays on "gimmicky" calls but rather about using him as a situational player to give him much-needed experience, honing his skills gradually, building from a smaller role to a larger incrementally. He'll make mistakes but those can be teaching moment, learning experiences. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of how NFL teams operate, I just find it hard to believe a WR with kick returner duties who has been relegated to the bottom of the depth chart has been getting the kind of reps and attention he needs in practice to develop into a starter.

In short, I think projects require attention and patience and I'm not convinced theres been much of either with Patterson. I could be wrong though...

Mothman wrote: I think he does too but I also think this could be a reflection of his impatience.

My take on this has always been that the best way to make Patterson a better, more consistent all-around player is to utilize him, to keep him high enough on the depth chart that he gets plenty of practice reps, plenty of experience, and at least a reasonable percentage of it with the starters. For me, it's never just been about the short term benefits of big plays on "gimmicky" calls but rather about using him as a situational player to give him much-needed experience, honing his skills gradually, building from a smaller role to a larger incrementally. He'll make mistakes but those can be teaching moment, learning experiences. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of how NFL teams operate, I just find it hard to believe a WR with kick returner duties who has been relegated to the bottom of the depth chart has been getting the kind of reps and attention he needs in practice to develop into a starter.

In short, I think projects require attention and patience and I'm not convinced theres been much of either with Patterson. I could be wrong though...

Jim and IrishViking, the one point I question is the "all-around" player part. Patterson is versatile already. He has run routes and caught passes as a Viking (short, medium, long), including big play catches and TDs, and he can run out of the backfield successfully, plus he's the best kick returner in the league. I'd say that's pretty darn rounded as a weapon. Patterson was not drafted to be a possession WR. He's a big play guy and he does that quite well. Also, as48 I've said before, I question a system that apparently can't incorporate Patterson's skills, aside from the special teams stuff.

losperros wrote:Jim and IrishViking, the one point I question is the "all-around" player part. Patterson is versatile already. He has run routes and caught passes as a Viking (short, medium, long), including big play catches and TDs, and he can run out of the backfield successfully, plus he's the best kick returner in the league. I'd say that's pretty darn rounded as a weapon. Patterson was not drafted to be a possession WR. He's a big play guy and he does that quite well. Also, as48 I've said before, I question a system that apparently can't incorporate Patterson's skills, aside from the special teams stuff.

Craig, I agree about Patterson's versatility but I took IrishViking's use of "all around player" to mean a complete player. If Zimmer is looking for versatility, Patterson has it. If he wants a player with refined skills and a thorough understanding of the offense, I assume Patterson's not there yet.

Mothman wrote: Craig, I agree about Patterson's versatility but I took IrishViking's use of "all around player" to mean a complete player. If Zimmer is looking for versatility, Patterson has it. If he wants a player with refined skills and a thorough understanding of the offense, I assume Patterson's not there yet.

You're probably right. Others have speculated about the same thing. I just keep thinking Patterson could have helped an offensive passing game that didn't exactly light it up last season.

I was pleased to see him in Florida with all the other guys...

The picture that was shown on snapchat?? he looked a little chunky.

I am hoping we actually use him this season...

Mothman wrote:I think he does too but I also think this could be a reflection of his impatience.

My take on this has always been that the best way to make Patterson a better, more consistent all-around player is to utilize him, to keep him high enough on the depth chart that he gets plenty of practice reps, plenty of experience, and at least a reasonable percentage of it with the starters. For me, it's never just been about the short term benefits of big plays on "gimmicky" calls but rather about using him as a situational player to give him much-needed experience, honing his skills gradually, building from a smaller role to a larger incrementally. He'll make mistakes but those can be teaching moment, learning experiences. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of how NFL teams operate, I just find it hard to believe a WR with kick returner duties who has been relegated to the bottom of the depth chart has been getting the kind of reps and attention he needs in practice to develop into a starter.

In short, I think projects require attention and patience and I'm not convinced there's been much of either with Patterson. I could be wrong though...

Maybe he's making too many mistakes to practice with the first strings? The practice time has been restricted with the resent CBA, wasn't it? You can't take a single player aside every few plays because they aren't doing fundamental things right. The team practices are meant to get down the specifics of the playbook in real time as a team. If one player is significantly behind the others I imagine that would put something of a strain on practice.

Though, to be fair, the only kind of practicing with a group I've done consistently was playing with my high school band. Even if a person is playing 5th or 6th seat, a trumpet player making a bunch of fundamental mistakes makes it difficult to practice. It's distracting. The conductor has to stop and have the section try by themselves so you end up just kind of sitting there. Something tells me those are apples to spaceships but it makes sense in my brain

Cliff wrote: Maybe he's making too many mistakes to practice with the first strings? The practice time has been restricted with the resent CBA, wasn't it? You can't take a single player aside every few plays because they aren't doing fundamental things right. The team practices are meant to get down the specifics of the playbook in real time as a team. If one player is significantly behind the others I imagine that would put something of a strain on practice.

Though, to be fair, the only kind of practicing with a group I've done consistently was playing with my high school band. Even if a person is playing 5th or 6th seat, a trumpet player making a bunch of fundamental mistakes makes it difficult to practice. It's distracting. The conductor has to stop and have the section try by themselves so you end up just kind of sitting there. Something tells me those are apples to spaceships but it makes sense in my brain

I think your analogy makes a lot of sense and is probably pretty on the mark.