Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote:I think the idea that JFB isn't very good and was just repeatedly "bailed out" by Evans is ridiculous but I think it's equally ridiculous to demean McCarron's contributions to Alabama's success by suggesting he essentially contributed nothing beyond takings naps and not screwing up.

I agree with this. McCarron might not be incredible or the guy Bama built it's offensive attack around, but at the same time he did enough to win most of the time. In the pros, if your QB isn't supremely talented, the next best thing is for him not to screw up and make critical mistakes that consistently cost the team. McCarron should get credit for being that kind of QB, although I very much doubt he has much of a ceiling to raise his game to the kind of QB that can be a factor all on his own in the pros.

Mothman wrote: Which, if either, of these two QBs will be successful in the pros is anybody's guess but it's pretty clear to me they both have a chance. McCarron may need to land on a team where he can play the dreaded role of game manager again and Manziel... well, he's clearly a natural but he's going to have to learn to work more from the pocket, take what defenses give him more often and hope the chances he took so successfully in college don't become turnovers in the NFL (and that the running he loves to do doesn't get him killed).

That's my two cents anyway.

Your two cents make sense to me. I still don't think McCarron belongs in the first 3 rounds, but if we're into the 4th I would not be upset if Spielman took a flyer on him.

I don't really want a JFB at 8. But if Norv, Rickie, and Zimmer all do, they may trade up to get him. This scares me, but theres a part a me that say Zimmer and Norv know more about QBs then I do. I KNOW I know more about QB's then Rickie. But then so does my German Shepard, Snap. I so want a pocket QB like Teddy or Zach.

Interesting...

Manziel has done more to help himself during his private mtgs, workout w teams than any QB in this draft FAR!!! He's flown up boards but while teams don't seem as concerned w off field stuff as they had their concern is now based on only size and potential durability

One team in top 10 a month ago didn't have him in their top 4 QBs. After spending time w him he's now number one on their board at position. Still teams at top are wrestling w risk-reward of such dynamic talent vs can his body hold up on this level

Jay Glazer on Twitter

VikingLord wrote: I agree with this. McCarron might not be incredible or the guy Bama built it's offensive attack around, but at the same time he did enough to win most of the time. In the pros, if your QB isn't supremely talented, the next best thing is for him not to screw up and make critical mistakes that consistently cost the team. McCarron should get credit for being that kind of QB, although I very much doubt he has much of a ceiling to raise his game to the kind of QB that can be a factor all on his own in the pros.

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This is my main concern w/ JFB: I see his NFL career playing out like Favre's. He is the type of player that is supremely talented and some might say egotistical. What I mean by that is Manziel WILL be the center of whatever offense he plays on. He will be the reason his team wins and he will be the reason they lose. He's that kind of a guy. He is not a game manager, striving to limit mistakes and play smart. He won't "win ugly" … meaning by doing the unheroic but prudent thing, but rather he's all about the OMG did he just do that highlights. If you draft him, you have to be willing to embrace that.

Texas Vike wrote:This is my main concern w/ JFB: I see his NFL career playing out like Favre's. He is the type of player that is supremely talented and some might say egotistical. What I mean by that is Manziel WILL be the center of whatever offense he plays on. He will be the reason his team wins and he will be the reason they lose. He's that kind of a guy. He is not a game manager, striving to limit mistakes and play smart. He won't "win ugly" … meaning by doing the unheroic but prudent thing, but rather he's all about the OMG did he just do that highlights. If you draft him, you have to be willing to embrace that.

This is exactly right, but I see it as more of a positive thing than a negative thing. To be fair about the not "winning Ugly" he didn't really have a chance to do that in college because he constantly had to carry his team (this accounts for not being a game manager and taking risks) and with the nature of CFB you always pile on the points to get a better BCS ranking. so it's a bit unfair to hold that against him.

With the QB's we have on the team we know all too well what it's like for them to be scared of making mistakes and therefore no risk/reward and then end up making mistakes for the exact reason because they're scared of making mistakes. This applies more to Ponder than Cassel, Cassel makes the same amount of Mistakes but evens it out with bigger plays. My problem with Cassel is that he has no will to keep a play alive, he'll move up in the pocket slightly but too often I see him simply lay down when being blitzed.

With these two areas being reasons why the QB's we have aren't succeeding, we should look for the opposite in the draft. Manziel is not afraid to take risks to get results and expects reward with no fear of risk. Honestly I think he's the only QB in the draft who could come in and wouldn't be scared to put the team on HIS back and not Petersons, which is the mentality I want in a QB. As far as not giving up on plays like Cassel I don't think I need to say much, he's likely the single greatest play extender in college football ever.

Something else I wanted to point out to people who assume most of Johnny's success comes outside the pocket or by running. He threw 10 TD's outside the pocket compared with 27 TD's Inside the pocket, and his completion percentage Inside the pocket was %73.5 this is the Best of any QB in the draft. This to me shows that he excels inside the pocket and uses his escapability to put him over the top of all other draft prospects. He definitely needs work on staying inside the pocket more because of durability, but no one can say he's not successful when he does stay in the pocket.

Loki wrote: This is exactly right, but I see it as more of a positive thing than a negative thing. To be fair about the not "winning Ugly" he didn't really have a chance to do that in college because he constantly had to carry his team (this accounts for not being a game manager and taking risks) and with the nature of CFB you always pile on the points to get a better BCS ranking. so it's a bit unfair to hold that against him.

With the QB's we have on the team we know all too well what it's like for them to be scared of making mistakes and therefore no risk/reward and then end up making mistakes for the exact reason because they're scared of making mistakes. This applies more to Ponder than Cassel, Cassel makes the same amount of Mistakes but evens it out with bigger plays. My problem with Cassel is that he has no will to keep a play alive, he'll move up in the pocket slightly but too often I see him simply lay down when being blitzed.

With these two areas being reasons why the QB's we have aren't succeeding, we should look for the opposite in the draft. Manziel is not afraid to take risks to get results and expects reward with no fear of risk. Honestly I think he's the only QB in the draft who could come in and wouldn't be scared to put the team on HIS back and not Petersons, which is the mentality I want in a QB. As far as not giving up on plays like Cassel I don't think I need to say much, he's likely the single greatest play extender in college football ever.

Good post.

Just to be clear: I don't see the point I made in the previous post as necessarily positive or negative. Or better said, it's not wholly positive, nor is it wholly negative.

Also: I see the likelihood of the Vikings getting Manziel around .005 for two reasons: I think he'll go in the top 5; I suspect he's not Zimmer and Turner's kind of QB, so even in the off chance he's there at 8, I doubt we'd take him. Of course, there is a remote possibility that Zimmer pow-wowed with Spielman about draft strategy and how to "perform" in the media, and they constructed a plan to create this very impression (that they won't take Manziel) only to fool other teams. Very remote.

Loki wrote:Something else I wanted to point out to people who assume most of Johnny's success comes outside the pocket or by running. He threw 10 TD's outside the pocket compared with 27 TD's Inside the pocket, and his completion percentage Inside the pocket was %73.5 this is the Best of any QB in the draft. This to me shows that he excels inside the pocket and uses his escapability to put him over the top of all other draft prospects. He definitely needs work on staying inside the pocket more because of durability, but no one can say he's not successful when he does stay in the pocket.

A VERY interesting statistic. Good to know. I don't follow college ball all that much and most of what I know comes from articles and message boards around draft time. That kind of state info raises JFB in my eyes.

Delaqure wrote: A VERY interesting statistic. Good to know. I don't follow college ball all that much and most of what I know comes from articles and message boards around draft time. That kind of state info raises JFB in my eyes.

Yeah, I've said for months now that JFB is the only QB I like at #8. His knock is staying in the pocket and being a pocket passer which he's the best QB in college football at so what does that tell you about the rest of the QB's in this draft! It tells me that Manziel is pretty good and that talent / upside is worth it.

I like the Favre comparison, I'd take some of the good things about him (swagger, huge competitor, fearless) and combine them with some of the good things from Russell Wilson (good legs / elusiveness, ability to extend plays, ability to complete a high % of throws on the run) and that's Manziel to me. I wasn't around for Tarkenton but I imagine you could throw a little of him in there too from what I hear.

But those are the traits I want in a QB. I don't want a "smart guy" like Ponder and I don't care about the physical tools because we've all seen how much they helped Josh Freeman. 90% of playing QB is mental imo and I want a guy who has that fire, passion, and competitiveness to be the best.

Yeah, I've said for months now that JFB is the only QB I like at #8.

I think they are looking at Bortles if he falls to us at #8, and part of that is he could use a year of molding and under the new system, where some of the other QB's would be more NFL first year ready, so to speak.

Bortles rise amasses me. He has surpassed JFB and Teddy on some boards. Was UCF schedule even that tough? I like Bortles better then Carr, but all the talk about JFB and Carr and now its all about Bortles. And Teddy keeps dropping. Man, its going to be a along week. And I still hope what I hoped months ago. That we have a shot at Teddy.

mondry wrote: But those are the traits I want in a QB. I don't want a "smart guy" like Ponder and I don't care about the physical tools because we've all seen how much they helped Josh Freeman. 90% of playing QB is mental imo and I want a guy who has that fire, passion, and competitiveness to be the best.

For me, the best reason to take JFB is because he presents the most problems for a defensive coordinator due to his ability to extend plays. Not only can he make plays with his arm, he can make them with his legs, and as a result defensive coordinators would face an additional concern they wouldn't with a less mobile QB. That can be a double-edged sword with some QB's, but JFB has shown he can make a lot of plays outside the pocket and he might be that rare QB who actually is more dangerous when the play breaks down.

I don't think they have a shot at JFB unless they trade up....and I don't see that happening.

Bortles at 8?

I don't trust Spielman on his own with this decision at all.

I'm hoping they wait til the second round for a QB.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:Bortles rise amasses me. He has surpassed JFB and Teddy on some boards. Was UCF schedule even that tough? I like Bortles better then Carr, but all the talk about JFB and Carr and now its all about Bortles. And Teddy keeps dropping. Man, its going to be a along week. And I still hope what I hoped months ago. That we have a shot at Teddy.

Teddy is dropping for a reason. Bortles has a lot and with a year under Norv's offense and some molding, he has a legit chance to be real good. Teddy, I think, ends up a career back up or another Vince Young.

They did play three ranked teams, including beating #6 Baylor in the Fiesta Bowl.


http://espn.go.com/college-football/tea ... cf-knights

This summarizes what I think the Vikes think of Manziel. I'd love for it to happen, but I highly doubt we draft him if he's there.

Bottom line: There's no doubt the combination of Manziel, Peterson and Cordarrelle Patterson in the same offense would be exciting, but the Vikings don't seem like the right place for Manziel to land. It's tough to envision him running Turner's offense, and as both Williamson and Riddick put it, the Manziel-to-Minnesota idea seems to be an odd fit. "There's a history and a profile he looks for, and Johnny really is not that profile," Riddick said. "It doesn't seem like a good fit, both from a schematic standpoint and from a cultural or philosophical standpoint. I think it's trying to force a square peg into a round hole on that one."

More at the link:
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikin ... ny-manziel