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Cassel doesn't have to be good, he just has to be "good enough". It's not as though the Vikings have nobody but Joe Webb or MBT as veterans to play ahead of Bridgewater. The whole Cassel compared to Ponder noise is moot. Ponder is the 3rd string QB on the roster now, and that won't change.

Are the Vikings ideally situated at QB? Far from it. And if Bridgewater doesn't pan out, that situation could continue for another couple of years.

Zimmer has the luxury of time, I mean lets face it, we're not the Browns so it will take something rather huge to get Zimmer fired after one year. Also, Turner seems to like Cassel, he said he wanted him in Cleveland so there has to be some sort of synergy there.

If you look at the free agent QB's from last year, Cassel seems to be one of the better ones so while the Vikings are far from "set" what they have is likely their best options. What I'm mainly looking for out of this first year is progression. Having a totally revamped offense and defense coming out running on all cylinders is unrealistic. If Bridgewater has a Wilson-esque camp then sure you start him but if it's neck and neck, you go with the vet, which I think was the primary premise of the article.

I do agree that the QB carousel was only a portion of Frazier's undoing. There was a lot more to it than that but that's been discussed at length so I'm not really going to go there again.

Loki wrote:This is most of teddy's highlights from camp so far, figured everyone might want to take a look. please post anything you guys notice teddy is doing well or anything you notice he needs to work on.

Glass half full POV:
Kid seems to have a nice touch on the ball. Floated some beauties into receiver's hands.
Not afraid to throw into tight coverage. A lot of look offs to pull safties and linebackers.
Solid arm, a lot better then some scouts give him credit for.
Mobile when he needs to be.

Glass half empty POV:
Seems to a ball pater. One of these QBs that will pat the ball before releasing it. Dead give away to defense when it's going to be a pass and when it's going to be a draw play.

Seems to be a rhythm thrower. No contact allowed in OTAs, game time defenses will not allow receivers to have a clean release from the line of scrimmage. How will he handle situations where the defense will try and do everything to throw his timing off with the receivers?

Overall:
Seems to be a better prospect then Christian Ponder already.

Loki wrote:This is most of teddy's highlights from camp so far, figured everyone might want to take a look. please post anything you guys notice teddy is doing well or anything you notice he needs to work on.

Well they're only "highlights" so it's hard to say. You could cut a highlight reel and make Ponder look like a pro bowler haha. But yeah, all of his passes were on target in the video so there's nothing really to criticize him about. He threw some nice darts and some tight spirals. I'd like to see all of his snaps though, and then all of Cassels.

dead_poet wrote:"The one thing we never want to do is hold back progress here," Zimmer said. "We want to keep progressing, whether it’s playing younger guys or getting better out on the field."

So refreshing to hear him say that. Especially since his predecessor was a bit slow or stubborn when it came to playing the younger guys, even when they were playing better than the starters.

dead_poet wrote:Really it's the lesser of two evils and not much separates Cassel from Ponder, though as I just mentioned, some see him as considerably better due to the fact he's simply not Ponder. I think that idea gains steam the further away from 2013 we get.

Ahhh come on, really? I don't believe you believe that. The last sentence is probably true, but that first part is hog wash. Cassel was better than Ponder, and not simply because he wasn't Ponder. Yeah Cassel gave us some head scratching games and moments as well, but lets not even pretend they're equally bad. Do you not remember how refreshing it was to watch Cassel in that Steelers game? How much blame did the O-line get the first few weeks with Ponder? Oh they're not giving him any time to throw. Give me a break. But suddenly they got their act together when Cassel got under center? A QB who can actually read a defense and get rid of the ball on time tends to make his teammates better. Ponder could never elevate his teammates like that. Ponder can't throw guys open, and even worse, he throws them covered. And holding the ball forever on every play unfairly made his O-line look like turnstiles.

Mothman wrote: Well said. I suspect you've hit the nail on the head with that explanation.

If by nail you mean thumb nail, then yeah he did. It's ridiculous to say "not much separates Cassel from Ponder". And what does he mean "considerably better"? I don't see any Cassel supporters going that far. He should have just left it at "lesser of two evils". I would have let him slide with that, but he went and got greedy xD.

S197 wrote:I do agree that the QB carousel was only a portion of Frazier's undoing. There was a lot more to it than that but that's been discussed at length so I'm not really going to go there again.

I think his undoing was his over inability to fix anything that plagued this team since the Childress era. You can't point to any aspect of this team and say we got noticeably better in that area under Frazier. How did anyone ever expect him to fix a position he didn't know anything about when he couldn't even fix the areas where he was a purported "expert"? He never fixed the D as the D-coordinator, and never fixed the DB's as DB coach. It's still beyond me how he even got the head job to begin with. Zim now has a similar QB situation that Frazier had when he took over, lets just hope he handles it better. He's off to a good start by hiring a better OC.

Reignman wrote: You can't point to any aspect of this team and say we got noticeably better in that area under Frazier.

I'm not sure how you are defining 'noticeably' so you could well be correct with that assessment depending on how you want to qualify it. Here are some interesting tidbits about the Frazier era that surprised me when I looked at them:

1) The Viking offense improved when he was HC (in terms of points scored - Remember 2010 was the year he took over as interim HC when Childress was fired).
2010 - 29th
2011 - 19th
2012 - 14th
2013 - 14th (believe it or not we gained more yardage as an offense (5508) in 2013, than we did in 2012 (5385) when Peterson had his MVP season. So while 2012 and 2013 were identical in points ranking (14th) we actually gained more yardage in 2013 and scored more points.

2) Frazier's defense got worse (overall) in points allowed. At best, he was 'inconsistent' in the defensive area:

2010 - 18th
2011 - 31st
2012 - 14th
2013 - 32nd


I would say that (somewhat ironically) that our offense did improve under Frazier, but our defense got worse. But to say that not one aspect of the team got noticeably (again depending on how you want to specifically define 'noticeably') better seems to overlook the improvements that were made on the offense in terms of points scored. I'm not saying that Frazier shouldn't have been fired, I'm just saying that he did improve some areas of the team. (Obviously just not enough to make up for his deficiencies in other areas).

Reignman wrote:Ahhh come on, really? I don't believe you believe that. The last sentence is probably true, but that first part is hog wash. Cassel was better than Ponder, and not simply because he wasn't Ponder.

Perhaps, but how much? I just don't see the gap being very large at all. Consider their 2013:

Ponder:1,648 yards (183 yards/game); 63.6% completion; 6.8 yards/attempt; 7 TDs; 9 INTs; 3.8% INT%; 77.9% QBR
Cassel: 1,807 yards (200 yards/game); 60.2% completion; 7.1 yards/attempt; 11 TDs; 9 INTs; 3.5% INT%; 81.6 QBR

I don't think people believing that Cassel was the superior QB in 2013 are wrong (and I agree with that assessment), but I simply refuse to believe he was considerably better.

Do you not remember how refreshing it was to watch Cassel in that Steelers game? How much blame did the O-line get the first few weeks with Ponder? Oh they're not giving him any time to throw. Give me a break. But suddenly they got their act together when Cassel got under center?

Let's talk about that game. You do realize that, going into that game, the Steelers were the worst team in the NFL in generating pressure, right? You don't think that had some bearing? But I don't think there's a question that Cassel is a better pocket passer and better at feeling pressure and executing.

A QB who can actually read a defense and get rid of the ball on time tends to make his teammates better. Ponder could never elevate his teammates like that. Ponder can't throw guys open, and even worse, he throws them covered. And holding the ball forever on every play unfairly made his O-line look like turnstiles.

Every quarterback in the league throws to covered receivers either by design or if they get favorable matchups. Even Matt Cassel.

If by nail you mean thumb nail, then yeah he did. It's ridiculous to say "not much separates Cassel from Ponder". And what does he mean "considerably better"? I don't see any Cassel supporters going that far. He should have just left it at "lesser of two evils". I would have let him slide with that, but he went and got greedy xD.

Well, my perception has been that there is a contingent that thinks Cassel is clearly and unequivocally a better QB than Ponder when I don't think they're that far apart. I could be mistaken. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

He never fixed the D as the D-coordinator

Frazier consistently fielded one of the top defensive units in the league with the Vikings. His history wasn't unimpressive.

In 1999 as defensive backs coach for the Eagles, the defense improved steadily in the four years that Frazier was there.

As DC of the Bengals from 2003 to 2004 he helped turn the unit into a group that increased takeaways from 24 in 2003 to 36 in 2004. The Bengals' 36 takeaways ranked third in the NFL in 2004. The 2004 Bengals notched 20 interceptions, the most since 1996. The Bengals' defense improved from 28th in the league in total yards allowed in 2003 to 19th in 2004, and declined in the two years following his dismissal.

In 2005 as Colts defensive assistant/special assistant to the head coach/ defensive backs coach the Colts passing defense improved from 15th in 2005 to second in 2006.

In Frazier's second full year as head coach, the Vikings improved to 10-6, making the playoffs. It was the biggest single-season turn around in Vikings history resulted in Frazier finishing fourth in voting for the NFL Coach of the Year Award.

Looking at his resume' this way, it's no wonder he got a shot. He was steadily getting interviewed, and not just because teams wanted to satisfy the Rooney Rule. It's too bad it didn't work out. I suspect he'll do a solid job in Tampa Bay.

Great points DP

Just Me wrote: I'm not sure how you are defining 'noticeably' so you could well be correct with that assessment depending on how you want to qualify it. Here are some interesting tidbits about the Frazier era that surprised me when I looked at them:

1) The Viking offense improved when he was HC (in terms of points scored - Remember 2010 was the year he took over as interim HC when Childress was fired).
2010 - 29th
2011 - 19th
2012 - 14th
2013 - 14th (believe it or not we gained more yardage as an offense (5508) in 2013, than we did in 2012 (5385) when Peterson had his MVP season. So while 2012 and 2013 were identical in points ranking (14th) we actually gained more yardage in 2013 and scored more points.

2) Frazier's defense got worse (overall) in points allowed. At best, he was 'inconsistent' in the defensive area:

2010 - 18th
2011 - 31st
2012 - 14th
2013 - 32nd


I would say that (somewhat ironically) that our offense did improve under Frazier, but our defense got worse. But to say that not one aspect of the team got noticeably (again depending on how you want to specifically define 'noticeably') better seems to overlook the improvements that were made on the offense in terms of points scored. I'm not saying that Frazier shouldn't have been fired, I'm just saying that he did improve some areas of the team. (Obviously just not enough to make up for his deficiencies in other areas).

Good post. Thanks for those stats.

I think it's pretty hard to look at those defensive rankings and not consider the obvious connection between injuries, depth and where the defense ended up each year. When a defense ping pongs between the bottom of the league and the middle like that over a 3 year span, there's obviously more going on than just questionable coaching.

Just Me wrote: I'm not sure how you are defining 'noticeably' so you could well be correct with that assessment depending on how you want to qualify it. Here are some interesting tidbits about the Frazier era that surprised me when I looked at them:

Just how noticeable were these improvements if you are finding them so interesting and surprising now?

Dead Poet wrote,

Perhaps, but how much? I just don't see the gap being very large at all. Consider their 2013:

Ponder:1,648 yards (183 yards/game); 63.6% completion; 6.8 yards/attempt; 7 TDs; 9 INTs; 3.8% INT%; 77.9% QBR
Cassel: 1,807 yards (200 yards/game); 60.2% completion; 7.1 yards/attempt; 11 TDs; 9 INTs; 3.5% INT%; 81.6 QBR

I don't think people believing that Cassel was the superior QB in 2013 are wrong (and I agree with that assessment), but I simply refuse to believe he was considerably better.

To me Cassel Numbers would have been even better, if they wouldn't have kept pulling him in and out of the rotation
with Ponder and Freeman. Ponder was obviously not getting better at game time progressions and speed and Cassel would
play good and then get yanked again.

dead_poet wrote: Perhaps, but how much? I just don't see the gap being very large at all. Consider their 2013:

Ponder:1,648 yards (183 yards/game); 63.6% completion; 6.8 yards/attempt; 7 TDs; 9 INTs; 3.8% INT%; 77.9% QBR
Cassel: 1,807 yards (200 yards/game); 60.2% completion; 7.1 yards/attempt; 11 TDs; 9 INTs; 3.5% INT%; 81.6 QBR

I don't think people believing that Cassel was the superior QB in 2013 are wrong (and I agree with that assessment), but I simply refuse to believe he was considerably better.

This ignores rushing, in which case they were virtually identical statistically:

Ponder: 1799 yards (200/game); 11 TD; 9 ints; 51.2 QBR
Cassel: 1864 yards (206/game); 12 TD; 9 ints; 48.7 QBR
The team also scored more points with Ponder at QB.

Any way you slice it, Cassel was not a significant improvement.

Any way you slice it, Cassel was not a significant improvement.

he would compete with Matt Cassel and, later, Josh Freeman for the starter role. Ponder has started the majority of games, with nine, and a record of 2-6-1. Cassel had six starts (3-3) and Freeman had one start (0-1). While the quarterback carousel would roll on the offense,

Yeah three times as many losses as win plus a tie and Cassel with a 50 percent win record per start with no consistent training time with the
number ones either. Ponder had 33 percent wins per start with several years in the starting role. That's 8 wins for Cassel average and 4.5 wins
for Ponder. Yeah they are exactly the same -- .. Ponder sucks really really bad and Cassel has been okay.. Cassel is not Tom Brady
but he did a good job for us. Cassel is not Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning okay; however, only four or five teams have great QB's. I'm guessing
Bridgewater can be around the pro bowl level at his best which is great, if that works out. Not an All Pro like Rodgers or Brees, but pretty good.

jackal wrote:To me Cassel Numbers would have been even better, if they wouldn't have kept pulling him in and out of the rotation
with Ponder and Freeman. Ponder was obviously not getting better at game time progressions and speed and Cassel would
play good and then get yanked again.

Well, he would have had bigger numbers because more time presumably = more production but who knows if they would have been better numbers.

I don't think anybody disagrees that Cassel played better than Ponder last year but that was over the course of one season and neither one of them had what I would call an impressive year. I still see no reason to consider Cassel the "perfect custodian" for the QB position. Sure, he (and Ponder for that matter) both have experience and in that sense, the Vikings are set up well to keep Bridgewater on the bench if they feel it's best for him. However, that doesn't mean the team can count on quality play from Cassel.

I'm sure the Cassel/Ponder argument will rage on but I think the bigger issue is that Cassel wasn't consistent at all and hasn't been a reliable starter for years. His history since 2010 does not suggest he's a QB who will comfortably hold down the fort while the Vikes just take their time with Bridgewater. Of course, they can take their time anyway. Zimmer's job isn't going to be in immediate jeopardy so win or lose, he can be patient. However, based on Cassel's track record in recent years, there's a pretty good chance there will be pressure to get the first round draft pick on the field and see what he can do. Zimmer may ignore that pressure even if it comes, but I expect to see it.

Funkytown wrote: Just how noticeable were these improvements if you are finding them so interesting and surprising now?

Just because I didn't notice them, doesn't mean they shouldn't be noticeable. Some people don't notice freight trains until they've been hit by them, but they are pretty noticeable before then too...

ponder, gabbert and sanchez were the 3 worst starting qb's in the nfl last season. the order is irrelevant i'm still shocked how anyone can refer to anything ponder did as a starter as being good. he was bad, or worse at best.