Vikings Message Board.Com

I also think that there is something to be said when you still see players wanting to come back here. Not a single veteran this offseason demanded a trade and multiple players believe that they have what it takes in this locker room to win. Players have recently spoke out on how they think this roster has a ton of talent on it and that they are excited about the new leadership. You can look at guys like Eric Kendricks, Harrison Smith and Adam Thielen (guys on the other side of their careers) and say they could've very well asked for a trade or a release so they could go sign with a SB contender. This is probably the last run for some of them. But they didnt. They wanted to stay. Even Danielle Hunter is another one.

I think that can relate to KOC and KAM as well as Rick Spielman given he is the one that brought most of this talent in. I dont think it's a good look on Zimmer by any means. So we can critique Spielman for his flaws at certain positions but in the end, players WANT to be here and that's largely due to the talent that Spielman has provided. I can tell you they arent critiquing Spielman for who he put on this roster. But it is very clear they were critiquing Zimmer on how he coached and the culture he brought to this team the past couple years. Add in former players speaking out on the coaching decisions he made. And on top of that, the poor game management, the conservative approach, etc. Believe what you want, but this looks bad on Zimmer more and more by the day.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:22 am I think that can relate to KOC and KAM as well as Rick Spielman given he is the one that brought most of this talent in. I dont think it's a good look on Zimmer by any means.

Come on man. Them wanting to return after both Zimmer and Spielman are fired is a good look for Spielman but not Zimmer?

All of the guys you mentioned have 0 leverage to force a trade or to be released and are returning to the Vikings because that is who they are under contract to play for.

Peterson returned because he likes the culture here, whether that is from the fanbase, ownership, the new coaches or a combination of all three. Which is a positive sign.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:25 am
Come on man. Them wanting to return after both Zimmer and Spielman are fired is a good look for Spielman but not Zimmer?

Yeah when guys like Patrick Peterson and Adam Thielen continue to say how talented this football team is, refer to the guys in this locker room, explain that it was situational football last year that lost them games, etc. How is that in any way, bad on Rick Spielman? He brought that talent in did right? It was a lack of execution and coaching that cost us a lot of games last year. When they refer to situational football, who's job is that to figure out? It sure isn't Rick Spielmans.

All of the guys you mentioned have 0 leverage to force a trade or to be released and are returning to the Vikings because that is who they are under contract to play for.

Because no player under contract for any team has never asked to be traded......

Peterson returned because he likes the culture here, whether that is from the fanbase, ownership, the new coaches or a combination of all three. Which is a positive sign.

Go listen to Peterson's podcast again. He also mentioned multiple times the talent level on this team. Again, who's #1 job was it to bring in the talent for this football team..... Rick Spielman. If Spielman was such a bad GM, players wouldnt have wanted to be here, we'd have a NY Jets type roster the new regime would be working with right now.

I dont understand why this is so hard for people to see. But hey, it doesnt surprise me that you're once again coming to Mike Zimmer's defense. It almost reminds me of when the Teddy fans would defend him to their death when he averaged less than one touchdown a game in his Vikings career. The guy was simply not good. We gave him his time, he didnt make a 2nd year leap, that was it. Mike Zimmer had his time. But over the last few years, he was simply not good. In multiple areas of coaching. Game managing, conservativeness, stubbornness, the nepotism, the fear based demeanor he was putting across, the disconnect with his GM, the poor lineup decisions, the playing favorites, etc. I could go on all day. It was Mike Zimmer's time to go. Rick Spielman, I'm not so sure. I can tell you I'm not the only Viking fan that believes that.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:54 am

Texas Vike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:32 pm
Your admiration of Rick is pretty well documented, so this take is not surprising. Nor do I think I can say anything that will change your opinion about him, so I won't try.

You're probably right. Just saying it how it is.

The one thing that I have not liked so far about KAM is Mannion as backup. I really hope we draft a QB to groom this year or next, if they don't think Mond looks promising. I also hope that KAM and KOC can assemble a better OL than the Ricker did. He was cursed when it came to OL.

I agree I dont like the Mannion re-signing either. I dont see them drafting a QB this year because they are going to want to see how Mond develops. If anything it would be next year. Either way, I'm not big on the "developmental guy" like some are on here. The Jake Fromm's of the world rarely pan out no matter how much you try and "develop" them. And the ceiling for these guys is Jalen Hurts level play which isnt great by any means. Everyone wants to find the next hidden gem Tom Brady in the draft. 90% of the league consists of first round QBs. And this is such a QB driven league now that it is extremely rare for a future star to fall any later than the first round. Scouts just dont miss that potential anymore when it comes to QBs.

If we want a true QB of the future, we need to draft one in the first round next year. I'd even be willing to trade down this year with someone like Pittsburgh who wants to come up to snag someone like Malik Willis (who I think is overrated) and gain an extra first round pick next year. That will give us 2 first round picks in 2023 which is a prime time to snag a QB of the future. Keep an eye out for Will Levis from Kentucky.

I suspect that, depending on how the board breaks, they may well do exactly what you envision here. As for the QB position, my take is that it is such an important position that it warrants drafting them (high if need be) more often than what our franchise has done. I get it, you can only play one. But having Mannion as your backup, ostensibly not because you feel confident in what he would do in Kirk's stead, but rather because Kirk likes having him as a personal assistant, is less than ideal. I am OK with what they've chosen to do with Cousins. It's a prudent approach, given his contract and all other factors. They've committed to him for a couple of years, which gives them time to see if KOC can win with him. We need to overhaul the D, and that's what they're doing.

Regarding Rick: I actually don't think we're THAT different in our views of him. You're more fond of him than I, but I can agree with you that some aspects of the draft he handled intelligently. I think he had some tendencies that were not so smart--like trading down so often, taking guys like Surrat, Boehringer (? that German WR), etc. I like to see that you are still forming your opinion of KAM. It's early still, but I like him so far.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:48 am Yeah when guys like Patrick Peterson and Adam Thielen continue to say how talented this football team is, refer to the guys in this locker room, explain that it was situational football last year that lost them games, etc. How is that in any way, bad on Rick Spielman?

Situational football where the Vikings were top 3 for 6 seasons and just became an issue in 2020 when half the defense was cut/lost in free agency and the Vikings had nothing to replace them with. Just a coincidence I am sure.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:48 am
Because no player under contract for any team has never asked to be traded......

99% of players don't ask to be traded. That means nothing.

Go listen to Peterson's podcast again. He also mentioned multiple times the talent level on this team. Again, who's #1 job was it to bring in the talent for this football team..... Rick Spielman. If Spielman was such a bad GM, players wouldnt have wanted to be here, we'd have a NY Jets type roster the new regime would be working with right now.

No one is saying we have a NY Jets type roster. With the addition of Smith and PP coming back this team should be able to win 10 games and get blown up in the playoffs if Hunter and Smith can remain healthy and Hunter transitions well to the 3-4. If that is good enough for you, great, keep defending Rick, but I personally want better and so did the Wilfs which is why Rick and Zimmer are both gone.

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:26 pm

Foreman44 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:05 pm

He reminds me of Johnny mansell. Just different in there problems.i didn’t want Manziel In the draft, as some viking fans did...you could see the problems coming.same with mayfield. Maybe it’s immaturity. Maybe a fresh start, will help him grow up.

But I don’t see him coming to minn.cleveland isn’t getting anything, mayfields best hope is they release him.. and some team picks him up per a injured starter..maybe Carolina.outside chance .jmo

Johnny football never got off the college party train and it ended his career. I assume Mayfield has stuff going on behind the scenes that's not talked about but it ended his Browns career.

I don’t disagree with your insight here. I saw that about Manziel even before the draft. A immature party boy that needed to grow up and didn’t.

Mayfield. You maybe right with issues not talked about. As well as maybe being immature, maybe a little arrogant. Just not a fan.

Foreman44 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:54 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:26 pm
Johnny football never got off the college party train and it ended his career. I assume Mayfield has stuff going on behind the scenes that's not talked about but it ended his Browns career.

I don’t disagree with your insight here. I saw that about Manziel even before the draft. A immature party boy that needed to grow up and didn’t.

Mayfield. You maybe right with issues not talked about. As well as maybe being immature, maybe a little arrogant. Just not a fan.

No fan or the media know about the behind the scenes stuff. I would imagine football players are basically their own society. Many things are swept under the rug. For example Dextler Manley who was a force at DE couldn't read or write because of dyslexia and I remember when he came out and talked about it. I'm not saying Mayfield has that problem but something is going on. He's on this good year / bad year cycle. Year 1 he had 27 TDs and 14 Ints which is great for a rookie. Year 2 22-21 which is very bad. Year 3 26-8 which is dam good. Year 4 17-13 which is bad. That's the main reason why the Browns made the playoffs and then missed the following year under Steph. Now they move on to Watson and his 5 yr 230 million contract. I would never do that. We will see if the Cousins haters are correct when they say he's only in it for the money. He's dropping down in the ranks so if they are correct he should be a hold out for more money. We'll see how that call goes.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:53 am
Situational football where the Vikings were top 3 for 6 seasons and just became an issue in 2020 when half the defense was cut/lost in free agency and the Vikings had nothing to replace them with. Just a coincidence I am sure.

I dont care what they did in the last 6 seasons. Stop trying to make the stat look better than it is. It's the last few years that's been a problem. Coaching has a MASSIVE role in situational football. Talent or no talent. Zimmer consistently played soft in the final minutes of halves and at the end of the game. You want to blame this on who we lost in free agency but we allow the winless Detroit Lions (who have a worse offense than we do defense even if we had players hurt) drive 75 yards to beat us. And you're going to sit there and tell me that's somehow a Rick Spielman problem and not a Mike Zimmer problem? Give. Me. A. Break.

99% of players don't ask to be traded. That means nothing.

There have been plenty of players across the league that have. Or at worst come to a dead end road in contract negotiations. Yet, we still didnt have a single player that wanted out.

No one is saying we have a NY Jets type roster. With the addition of Smith and PP coming back this team should be able to win 10 games and get blown up in the playoffs if Hunter and Smith can remain healthy and Hunter transitions well to the 3-4. If that is good enough for you, great, keep defending Rick, but I personally want better and so did the Wilfs which is why Rick and Zimmer are both gone.

Well with the way you defend Mediocre Mike, it doesnt seem like he was much of a problem in your eyes. You just want to blame everyone else for his pis# poor coaching, game management, roster management, etc. the past few years.

And yeah I said Zimmer was a no brainer fire. Spielman I said I was on the fence with and still am. But again, I'm giving KAM time. Way to early to judge if firing Rick and hiring KAM was the right thing to do or not. KAM hasnt even had his first draft yet. But given Rick was having pis#ing matches with Zimmer, it probably didnt help his cause so I'm leaning more towards it being the right call. But Zimmer clearly lost this locker room by the end of his tenure and I honestly dont trust his hard-headed bullcrap. It was a battle of "who's the boss?"

I wouldnt completely rule out that Zimmer didnt give certain players chances because they weren't "his guys" and werent picks that he wanted. Dont be surprised if one day that comes out. Just look how he talked about Mond. Coming with intent to kill Mond's confidence just because his coaching decision was being questioned by reporters. He hated being questioned and often finger pointed when he was. That turns players off. His starting MLB explained that. As well as his RT. He deserved to be fired and should have been prior to this past year.

But just think about something for a second....

If KAM and KOC didnt think Rick Spielman's roster was good enough to win with, why would they run it back this year? Nearly everything this new regime is doing is going hand in hand with Rick Spielman's roster that he had in place. They didnt blow the thing up when they very well could have. They didnt make any drastic changes when they very well could have. Their biggest change was cutting Michael Pierce. Everything they are doing points at "yeah this team is very talented but had pis# poor coaching". I mean KOC has mentioned "situational football" how many times in his press conferences? Multiple. Which points directly at Mike Zimmer, not Rick Spielman.

So yeah, the Wilfs "wanted better' and you "want better" and you now have a regime that is riding Rick Spielman's roster off into the sunset. The problems in your eyes were Kirk Cousins and Rick Spielman. This new regime keeps Cousins and runs it back with Spielmans roster and is doing everything else completely opposite of Mike Zimmer.... and you want to continue to sit here day after day and say how Kirk Cousins and Rick Spielman were a problem, but defend Mike Zimmer......

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:42 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:53 am
Situational football where the Vikings were top 3 for 6 seasons and just became an issue in 2020 when half the defense was cut/lost in free agency and the Vikings had nothing to replace them with. Just a coincidence I am sure.

I dont care what they did in the last 6 seasons. Stop trying to make the stat look better than it is. It's the last few years that's been a problem. Coaching has a MASSIVE role in situational football. Talent or no talent. Zimmer consistently played soft in the final minutes of halves and at the end of the game. You want to blame this on who we lost in free agency but we allow the winless Detroit Lions (who have a worse offense than we do defense even if we had players hurt) drive 75 yards to beat us. And you're going to sit there and tell me that's somehow a Rick Spielman problem and not a Mike Zimmer problem? Give. Me. A. Break.

Last few years? 2019 the Vikings were tied with NE for the 3rd fewest TDs in the final 2 minutes of halves and from 2014-2019 had only lost 6 games when leading with 8 minutes or less. There was 3 in 2020 alone. What changed that year?

In the final 2 minutes of the half every offense and defense does pretty much the same thing and the side with the most talent wins. Which is why this team had little talent on the defensive side of the ball, we had lots of points score on us, while we had a lot of talent on that side of the ball, we were one of the best in the NFL. Same coach, but a significant difference in talent.

There have been plenty of players across the league that have. Or at worst come to a dead end road in contract negotiations. Yet, we still didnt have a single player that wanted out.

The vast majority don't, so this means nothing. Not to mention Hunter and Thielen were the only two who any team would trade for and Thielen got a raise, while Hunter was actively shopped with no takers.

Well with the way you defend Mediocre Mike, it doesnt seem like he was much of a problem in your eyes. You just want to blame everyone else for his pis# poor coaching, game management, roster management, etc. the past few years.

Again, you talk about the past few years which is weird because the team was pretty good in 2019. Not good enough, but pretty good. Just goes to show that you want to believe something versus actually see evidence of it.

If it comes off like I am defending Zimmer, it is because people make stuff up about him to make this team seem like it didn't have any issues outside of the HC, something that is preposterous considering the GM was fired too. Clearly there were other significant issues outside of the coach.

So yeah, the Wilfs "wanted better' and you "want better" and you now have a regime that is riding Rick Spielman's roster off into the sunset. The problems in your eyes were Kirk Cousins and Rick Spielman. This new regime keeps Cousins and runs it back with Spielmans roster and is doing everything else completely opposite of Mike Zimmer.... and you want to continue to sit here day after day and say how Kirk Cousins and Rick Spielman were a problem, but defend Mike Zimmer......

What is more likely, the Wilfs hired Kwesi to continue to do exactly what the guy he just fired was doing or that the Wilfs hired Kwesi to remain somewhat competitive while rebuilding a flawed roster that the GM who was fired gave him that had him up against the cap? What were Kwesi's options once teams laughed at the idea of trading for Kirk exactly?

It is incredible that the GM is fired, and you are still so unwilling to admit that he was an issue. Zimmer AND Rick BOTH needed to go, which is why both were fired.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:27 am
Last few years? 2019 the Vikings were tied with NE for the 3rd fewest TDs in the final 2 minutes of halves and from 2014-2019 had only lost 6 games when leading with 8 minutes or less. There was 3 in 2020 alone. What changed that year?

In the final 2 minutes of the half every offense and defense does pretty much the same thing and the side with the most talent wins. Which is why this team had little talent on the defensive side of the ball, we had lots of points score on us, while we had a lot of talent on that side of the ball, we were one of the best in the NFL. Same coach, but a significant difference in talent.

Let me repeat, I DONT care about what they did 3 years ago. It has progressively gotten worse and funny part is, they actually had more talent on the defense this past year than they did in 2020, and they legitimately set records for most points allowed in the final minutes of halves and games. This is indeed a fact. Stop disputing it and using stats from 3+ years ago. They still had Hunter for part of the year, two pretty solid interior defensive lineman, Everson, Kendricks, Barr, Harrison, Woods and Peterson. Stop acting like this was some stripped down, bare bones defense last year. It wasnt and they were more than capable of being at least average. And they were historically bad, especially late in games. That has everything to do with coaching.

The vast majority don't, so this means nothing. Not to mention Hunter and Thielen were the only two who any team would trade for and Thielen got a raise, while Hunter was actively shopped with no takers.

Oh really? I didnt realize you were at TCO fielding calls for players. Teams very well would have traded for Cousins, Kendricks and Smith at the right price. Just because those guys werent traded doesnt mean "no teams wanted them". And there were plenty of "takers" with Hunter from reports, but again, they didnt get what they wanted compensation wise. You act like KAM was handcuffed. If he really wanted to salary dump these guys, he could have.

Again, you talk about the past few years which is weird because the team was pretty good in 2019. Not good enough, but pretty good. Just goes to show that you want to believe something versus actually see evidence of it.

If it comes off like I am defending Zimmer, it is because people make stuff up about him to make this team seem like it didn't have any issues outside of the HC, something that is preposterous considering the GM was fired too. Clearly there were other significant issues outside of the coach.

Woah woah woah. I want to know who exactly "made up stuff" about Mike Zimmer and what it was that they "made up". Because I can tell you the quotes out of HIS middle linebackers mouth and HIS right tackles mouth, backed up plenty of what has been said. Even former players have came out bashing his nepotism. Never once did I say the coach was the only issue. Of course their are other problems along the way that go into this. But I can honestly tell you that Zimmer was the biggest part of this problem. Eric Kendricks and Brian O'Neill didnt need to say anything at all. But they did. They explained that it was indeed a problem. So you can go off of whatever statistic you want but I can tell you that I will trust what comes out of two leaders mouths on this team over something you "think" happened or didnt happen.

What is more likely, the Wilfs hired Kwesi to continue to do exactly what the guy he just fired was doing or that the Wilfs hired Kwesi to remain somewhat competitive while rebuilding a flawed roster that the GM who was fired gave him that had him up against the cap? What were Kwesi's options once teams laughed at the idea of trading for Kirk exactly?

It is incredible that the GM is fired, and you are still so unwilling to admit that he was an issue. Zimmer AND Rick BOTH needed to go, which is why both were fired.

Obviously Kwesi isnt going to do "exactly" what Spielman did or would have done. I never said that. But KAM is taking a very good portion of his roster into future years. People keep saying competitive rebuild. What has KAM rebuilt? So far, he's re-tooled this roster and added some key pieces, switched schemes and that's about it.

Also, I will say it's pretty funny when you sit there talking about stats, evidence, facts, etc. But then use the quote of a Charlotte Observer beat writer that said the "Panthers laughed at the idea of trading for Kirk". That's your source? No less the quote literally says

“. . . while there were reports that the Panthers inquired about Cousins in Minnesota, two sources said that call never occurred,” Alexander notes. “The coaching staff and front office were actually in a meeting when they heard the news and laughed it off.”

They were in a meeting and heard the news that they contacted Minnesota about Kirk Cousins when they clearly havent. Wouldnt you have laughed at that too? When you're sitting in a meeting knowing you never reached out to Minnesota, and it comes across the news that you did. But of course the media twists this around and blows it up that the Panthers laughed at wanting Cousins when by the sounds of it, they simply laughed that it came across the news that they reached out when they never did. But either way, quite the reliable source we have here.

And what do you mean "what were Kwesi's options when teams laughed at trading for Kirk"? You act like his only choice was to extend him. Teams are out here trading for guys like Carson Wentz and Matt Ryan. Anyone in the NFL will tell you Kirk Cousins is a better QB than both of those guys and I can guarantee teams would have happily traded for him. But bottom line is, KOC and KAM went into this with a specific asking price for Kirk and if that price wasnt met, they werent going to deal him. Clearly that price wasnt met. The whole notion of "well nobody traded for him so nobody wanted him" is a giant crock of shi#. Just because a trade wasnt completed doesnt mean "nobody wanted him".

In the end, I love how you're defending this regime right now when they are literally doing all the things you've hated over the last 5 years. Extend Kirk Cousins and run it back with Rick Spielmans roster

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:31 am
Let me repeat, I DONT care about what they did 3 years ago.

Then why did you write this?

It's the last few years that's been a problem.

FWIW, we do not know that KOC and KAM looked at the roster and said "we can win with this, roll it back".

It is possible the owners told them to run it back. Both KOC and KAM said ok and still took the jobs, as these opportunities aren't always guaranteed.

We don't know who drove that overall concept.

My opinion, all those rumors that RS was going to be retained and asked to move into different position means to me the Wilf's think his roster was competent. They likely dictated the run it back imho.

I am here to see what happens this season. We are gonna learn something, that's for sure.

makila wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:02 pm FWIW, we do not know that KOC and KAM looked at the roster and said "we can win with this, roll it back".

It is possible the owners told them to run it back. Both KOC and KAM said ok and still took the jobs, as these opportunities aren't always guaranteed.

We don't know who drove that overall concept.

My opinion, all those rumors that RS was going to be retained and asked to move into different position means to me the Wilf's think his roster was competent. They likely dictated the run it back imho.

I am here to see what happens this season. We are gonna learn something, that's for sure.

True, however my gut feeling tells me the Wilfs went with KAM and KOC because they thought they could win now with the current roster, the reason I believe Harbaughs consideration ended so quickly was because Harbaugh likely didn't share the opinion that this current roster can win and wanted to rebuild and informed the wilfs it would take at least 3 years.

allday1991 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:12 am

makila wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:02 pm FWIW, we do not know that KOC and KAM looked at the roster and said "we can win with this, roll it back".

It is possible the owners told them to run it back. Both KOC and KAM said ok and still took the jobs, as these opportunities aren't always guaranteed.

We don't know who drove that overall concept.

My opinion, all those rumors that RS was going to be retained and asked to move into different position means to me the Wilf's think his roster was competent. They likely dictated the run it back imho.

I am here to see what happens this season. We are gonna learn something, that's for sure.

True, however my gut feeling tells me the Wilfs went with KAM and KOC because they thought they could win now with the current roster, the reason I believe Harbaughs consideration ended so quickly was because Harbaugh likely didn't share the opinion that this current roster can win and wanted to rebuild and informed the wilfs it would take at least 3 years.

Absolutely. Which means they (wilfs) were looking for someone to confirm their belief that the roster was ready to give it another go during interviews. Hiring the ones that likely said "we can win with this". That is their right, it's their team, their investments. That further supports they believed RS built a good roster imo.

What we don't know is if they (koc and kam) would have taken the same path if the wilfs said "do whatever you want with personal". We will never know unless those in the room share it.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:12 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:31 am
Let me repeat, I DONT care about what they did 3 years ago.

Then why did you write this?

It's the last few years that's been a problem.

Uhhh because thats the most recent comparison to what they've done and what Zimmer has done? I've said multiple times, this league is all about "what have you done for me lately". And lately, Zimmer has been a pis# poor coach in multiple facets. On top of it, you're using statistics from 3+ years ago and want to keep talking about Zimmer's success in 2017 and partial success in 2019.....cool, not relevant anymore.