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Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:20 pm
by mondry
Watched some more videos of all the QBs and Manziel is far and away the best QB I've seen so far IMO. Bridgewater might not be bad either, he throws a ton of short passes and quick stuff which would normally have me worried but he could probably do what we want Ponder to do but actually put the ball in the right spot. He could complete something like 70% of his passes for that 300 yards, 2 TD's 0 INTs in our offense so in that sense Bridgewater might be the best fit for us.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:24 pm
by dead_poet
PacificNorseWest wrote:What sample size do some of you base this off of? I keep seeing "in big games" and "against 'bama." Is LSU not an NFL-type defense? It was very similar to Alabama's and there were more than a few pros on that team last year. 56 attempts for only 276 yards. 0 TD's and 3 INT's. Against another very strong D in Florida...173 yards and 0 TD's. Both games were L's. You can't just neglect the other end of the spectrum if you're gonna claim he comes up big in big games against top D's. That's not entirely true.
There are things that intrigue me about Manziel's makeup, but it takes a lot more than that to make him a successful NFL quarterback. He can be Fran Tarkenton out there all he wants, but does he really know how to settle in the pocket and make some reads? Can he digest film? All questions that need to be answered or else Manziel to me is all flash and no polish.
I agree that you can't just take the good. Look at the bad. Then look at his
body of work. There's a pretty good reason he won the Heisman last season.
295/434; 68% completion; 3,706 yards; 8.5 YPA; 26 TDs; 9 INTs; 155.3 rating; 201 rush; 1,410 yards, 7.0 YPC; 21 TDs
And he's improving almost across the board. His completion percentage (which was already excellent) is up, he's nearly doubling his YPA (11.2! Manning's career YPA at Tennessee was 8.1 with "only" a career 62% completion percentage)
I think it's also curious you're placing focus on the 2012 Florida game. It was only the first start of his college career! He's 14-3 his last 17 games. Are you expecting perfection? Heck, Aaron Rodgers put up a stinker (by his standards) last Sunday, throwing for only 244 yards 1 TD and 2 INTs.
Manziel has tremendous upside. He's almost must-watch TV.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:52 pm
by Demi
There's a pretty good reason he won the Heisman last season.
And that translates to success how often?
Manziel has tremendous upside. He's almost must-watch TV.
So was/is Micheal Vick.
You don't win in the NFL with this skill set. Your going to face teams that are just as good in the playoffs...with QBs who can throw the ball better, and you're not going to advance.
Bridgeeeewater!
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:01 pm
by Laserman
Not sure who but the Vikings front office better start watching all the QBs very closely starting now cause we will have 3 wins at best and will be drafting 1-3 this year
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:01 pm
by dead_poet
Demi wrote:
And that translates to success how often?
It depends on how you define success. Plenty of Heisman winners have gone on to have productive NFL careers. And should we really hold that against him?
You don't win in the NFL with this skill set. Your going to face teams that are just as good in the playoffs...with QBs who can throw the ball better, and you're not going to advance.
He's completing 70% of his passes this season at a ridiculous 11.2 yards/pass. I'll take those stats and the guy tossing the ball to achieve them, regardless of his scrambling (I don't see him in the Cam Newton/RGIII mold). Big Ben is known as an exceptional scrambler and able to extend plays. His career hasn't been too shabby.
I like Bridgewater too. But unless we're in the top 2, he'll likely be gone. Manziel has game.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:23 pm
by OJVIKE
http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-fo ... 08aao.html
to bad he was wasted..by Brewster... I believe he is a LB now.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:25 pm
by VikingLord
Demi wrote:
So was/is Micheal Vick.
You don't win in the NFL with this skill set. Your going to face teams that are just as good in the playoffs...with QBs who can throw the ball better, and you're not going to advance.
Bridgeeeewater!
Have you watched video of Manziel?
There is a difference between called runs for the QB and scrambling to keep plays alive while looking downfield. Just because Manziel can run doesn't mean he relies on it. I think Vick and other "running" QBs relied on their running as a central part of their game.
From what I've seen, Manziel throws the ball pretty well, demonstrating touch, accuracy, and decisiveness with his throws. I agree that Manziel needs to demonstrate he can throw from the pocket, and I believe he is demonstrating that this season.
I'm not saying Bridgewater would be a mistake, but honestly, if I had to take one of the two I'd still take Manziel. Bridgewater is accurate as well, but the level of competition he's facing isn't nearly what Manziel has and will face.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:10 pm
by HornedMessiah
majorm wrote:Just remember who EVERYONE thought was far and away the best QB in the 2011 draft;
One Blaine Gabbert! Look how that's gone.
Huh? You're forgetting about the #1 pick: Cam Newton. After him there was no real consensus. Some liked Gabbert, others liked Locker, Dalton and Kaepernick were in the conversation as well. I honestly can't recall Ponder even being in that discussion. When the Vikes drafted him a lot of people were like, "WHO?!"
I'd prefer a traditional QB over some kind of dual-threat/read-option guy. Is there even any certainty that Manziel will declare for the draft? It might be wise of him to play another season of college ball after this year, to grow up a bit and further distance himself from the #### storm that surrounded him this summer.
And right here tonight is another big example of how hard it is to find a franchise QB in the draft: Sam Bradford. Guy won the Heisman and was the #1 overall pick in 2010. He hasn't been terrible but he hasn't been too great either.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:22 pm
by PacificNorseWest
Boon wrote:
Like rodgers, steve young, big ben, those guys?
You know that's not what he meant.
Quit stretchin' the definition.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:22 pm
by dead_poet
Purplemania wrote:IDK, to me Manziel can throw from the pocket, but he doesn't seem comfortable throwing in the pocket. He still runs too soon, but I will give him credit for keeping his eyes down the field most of the time. If no one is open within 4 or so seconds, Manziel takes off running. I think he is coached to do that though. In the NFL, it won't work. He'll need to stay in the pocket, and only use his speed and athleticism when it's the absolute last option. That's hard to train into the mind for athletic mobile QB's, and one has yet to successfully master that balance as evidence by the QB's that have won the SB. One thing that impresses me more than his athleticism, Manziel is actually very accurate on his throws. I mean, here and there he'll do something crazy like heave the ball and hope for a pray, but when he needs to hit a WR in strive, he does it. Soo...overall the two thing that Manziel needs to work on is pocket awareness and decision making- if he can improve on these two he'll be a damn good QB in the NFL.
The ball is rarely still in your hands after four seconds in the NFL. If it is, you're usually prying it out of your gut off the ground. If you've somehow remained upright, you're rarely still sitting comfortably in the pocket.
Like Boon said, Rodgers, Steve Young and Big Ben (not to mention Tark) are prime examples of highly successful scrambling quarterbacks. Again, I see more of them in Manziel than I do RGIII or Cam Newton.
I agree about his pocket presence; he sometimes scrambles when he still has a pocket, but his decision making and accuracy have been excellent. Some of his passes he throws and gives his receiver (usually one-on-one coverage) a chance to make a play. I'm very okay with that, provided he puts it in a good spot for the receiver and the receiver is capable of making plays. I can't help but think that if he was our QB that Rudolph would be targeted significantly more often.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:46 pm
by Demi
PacificNorseWest wrote:
You know that's not what he meant.
Quit stretchin' the definition.
The closest you can get is steve young. And mariota/manziel are not steve young scramblers> They are dual threat runners with pea brains, mariota not the brightest, manziel...I think he might be mentally unstable.
I made my feeling clear on "athletes". Players with that ability are a detriment to their team. At some point, they're going to give up on their reads. They're going to feel phantom pressure. The skill set that allows them to run is a negative. Not a positive. Even guys like Young, Rodgers, Ben. They are pass first. They sit in the pocket until they know it's over, then they run. Mariota, Manziel...they take off at the first sign of pressure of no receivers open. In the NFL, with the offensive coordinators and head coaches that run the league, you need a guy who's going to go through his reads, stand tall in the pocket, and get blasted if it means waiting until literally everyone is covered for the entire duration of the play...
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:51 pm
by jackal
I have not even started thinking about QB's or the draft yet
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:14 am
by JellyBean2144
Much as I hate the hyping of Johnny Football, I do like his swag. If we were picking a QB I would want this dude on my team. He is a gamer.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:18 am
by JellyBean2144
Much as I hate the hyping of Johnny Football, I do like his swag. If we were picking a QB I would want this dude on my team. He is a gamer.
Re: Of Next Years Draft Class, Which QB Would You Choose Tod
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:22 am
by PacificNorseWest
Players with that ability are a detriment to their team. At some point, they're going to give up on their reads. They're going to feel phantom pressure. The skill set that allows them to run is a negative. Not a positive. Even guys like Young, Rodgers, Ben. They are pass first. They sit in the pocket until they know it's over, then they run. Mariota, Manziel...they take off at the first sign of pressure of no receivers open. In the NFL, with the offensive coordinators and head coaches that run the league, you need a guy who's going to go through his reads, stand tall in the pocket, and get blasted if it means waiting until literally everyone is covered for the entire duration of the play...
Never ever agreed with you more, Demi. And I don't think I ever will again, on this level, because this stuff is 100% on point and some insightful information that open minds should digest.
I'm on another forum where I predicted Kaepernick's struggles for almost this entire reason and took #### for it at first until it turned out that I was right. I don't even need to rehash my take because you nailed it. Good stuff, bro.