PurpleKoolaid wrote:Why do we even draft past round 3 or 4 then? Not a very valid argument. Ask Tom Brady. IMO, a good coach can advance a player then has a limited amount of talent and skill. Any hallway decent coach can coach a Luck.
A good coach can help a player with limited talent or skill but he can't advance every player with limited talent or skill. Coaches aren't star-makers and late round superstars like Brady are the exception, not the rule.
Why do teams draft past round 3 or 4? To look for rare exceptions like Brady and to find role-players, which every team needs. Blaming a coach for not turning mid-to-late round picks into stars is ridiculous.
So a coach like Woods has all his bases covered. If he sucks at his job, which I believe he has, its not his fault, its because he had no talent to work with. If he has talent, which any coach can coach, he is a good coach.
See, I have a manager position where I work. If I tried using this logic while training part time or full time help, I would be fired. You have to be able to train people that may not even have a college degree to run some equipment, or even PC software. That's my job. We cant afford the higher educated people all the time.
I love Winfield. I disagree on how he views Woods. Winfield may be right seeing as he is an actual DB. But Woods should have been gone years ago imho.
Ahh. The good ol' coaching vs. talent argument. It's way more complicated than that. But, I would throw in work ethic to be the biggest difference maker. Whether an athlete has a lot of talent or not--work ethic, maturity, drive etc. is where it's at!
Some say Moss is the most-skilled WR of all time, but is he the greatest? No. Rice is. Why? Because of his work ethic and dedication to the game. Oh, and maybe those great QBs he played with. But that is beside the point. Did the WR coach have to go out there and hold Rice's hand every day?!?! No. Rice worked his @$$ off because he wanted to.
A coach (or a manager) can only teach someone so much. They have to be willing to put in the work. My manager barely taught me squat, but I know my job and I'm good at it. I meet my expectations and then some. Does anyone hold my hand while I'm doing it? NO. I do it because it's my job, and I do a great job because I want to. Why? Because of my own personal ethics and work ethics.
Someone could have all of the talent and/or the best coach (or manager) in the world--but at the end of the day, they have to want it. Especially where athletes are concerned, working hard is a must. And for those who lack a little talent, well, it's their job to pick the brains of their coaches and other players--AS WELL AS come in early and stay late!
PurpleKoolaid wrote:So a coach like Woods has all his bases covered. If he sucks at his job, which I believe he has, its not his fault, its because he had no talent to work with. If he has talent, which any coach can coach, he is a good coach.
The opposite side of that is that he doesn't get any credit for coaching already talented players (despite one admitting he was instrumental in his success) and is chastised for, what, not turning guys like Sanford and Raymond into superstars?
What are your expectations of the guy? Frankly it's hard (or impossible) for fans to really know how good a position coach is when we're not privy to his practices. I think the fact that he's stuck around through various coaching changes over the last few years combined with getting looked at for DC positions provides pretty decent evidence that he's at least average at what he does.
I love Winfield. I disagree on how he views Woods.
Right. How in the world can he accurately know how he feels about the guy?
Winfield may be right seeing as he is an actual DB. But Woods should have been gone years ago imho.
FWIW, I've thought the same. But I think injuries and draft history also play a part. I mean, Tyrell Johnson and Asher Allen in particular (though I suppose the latter was improving towards the end).
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly
Does Woods get any credit for the dramatic improvement of Jamarca Sanford? Or did Sanford just suddenly get better on his own?
I’d argue a big reason our Secondary had so many issues was the terrible talent at Safety. Between Sharper and Harry the Hitman the talent at the position was just plain terrible. Now we have Smith, plus Raymand and Sanford (both late rounders) providing solid, if not spectacular, play. This group seems to have reasonable depth.
At CB we had Winfield, but Griffen and his many backups were inconsistent at best. The best play we saw from the group was in 2011 before Winfield got hurt and Cook went to Jail. Last year we finally saw solid play across the secondary, but there depth chart is still an issue. Frasier has stated this fact and has said they need to get depth in this area. Losing Winfield hurt, but we now seem to be headed in the right direction with Cook, Rhodes, Robinson, and Jefferson. Scherels is a question mark as is Cook’s durability. Still, the group is coming along. I’d imagine we’ll see another mid round pick invested here.
In defense of Woods we’ve also had quite a run of bad luck in this area. Allen up and retires Abdullah retires. Griffen blows his ACLs and goes off the reservation. Tyrell Johnson is a disaster. The GM let Sharper leave. Dwight Smith was a loser. This year the Winfield situation didn’t do him any favors either.
Despite its youth, I think an argument can be made that our current secondary roster is probably the deepest and most talented we’ve put on the field in at least a decade. It’s been a long road…
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
MelanieMFunk wrote:Ahh. The good ol' coaching vs. talent argument.
lol yep, I thought the exact same thing!
It's way more complicated than that. But, I would throw in work ethic to be the biggest difference maker. Whether an athlete has a lot of talent or not--work ethic, maturity, drive etc. is where it's at!
Some say Moss is the most-skilled WR of all time, but is he the greatest? No. Rice is. Why? Because of his work ethic and dedication to the game. Oh, and maybe those great QBs he played with. But that is beside the point. Did the WR coach have to go out there and hold Rice's hand every day?!?! No. Rice worked his @$$ off because he wanted to.
A coach (or a manager) can only teach someone so much. They have to be willing to put in the work. My manager barely taught me squat, but I know my job and I'm good at it. I meet my expectations and then some. Does anyone hold my hand while I'm doing it? NO. I do it because it's my job, and I do a great job because I want to. Why? Because of my own personal ethics and work ethics.
Someone could have all of the talent and/or the best coach (or manager) in the world--but at the end of the day, they have to want it. Especially where athletes are concerned, working hard is a must. And for those who lack a little talent, well, it's their job to pick the brains of their coaches and other players--AS WELL AS come in early and stay late!
For sure, that's a good analysis. As for me I'll take Winfields word for it, and other NFL level guys who clearly see something in Woods over fans on a message board, especially when they have the opposite opinion!
PurpleKoolaid wrote:So a coach like Woods has all his bases covered. If he sucks at his job, which I believe he has, its not his fault, its because he had no talent to work with. If he has talent, which any coach can coach, he is a good coach.
See, I have a manager position where I work. If I tried using this logic while training part time or full time help, I would be fired. You have to be able to train people that may not even have a college degree to run some equipment, or even PC software. That's my job. We cant afford the higher educated people all the time.
I love Winfield. I disagree on how he views Woods. Winfield may be right seeing as he is an actual DB. But Woods should have been gone years ago imho.
That's your prerogative but unlike Winfield's view, your opinion regarding Woods' job performance is not an informed opinion. Neither is mine and that's the real point here. As dead_poet wrote above, "it's hard (or impossible) for fans to really know how good a position coach is when we're not privy to his practices". Sometimes it's okay for us to just say we don't know. If you truly know enough about DB play to watch the games on television (where you can't even see the DBs half the time) and determine from that evidence that Woods is doing a poor job, my hat's off to you.
I've been a manager too so I understand your point. I know what it takes to train an employee to do a job properly but I also understand that not all employees are equal and I suspect you do too. Some people are more qualified for a job than others, some learn better or adapt more quickly or have better attention to detail. Some just don't have as much as talent as others. A coach or manager can only teach people so much.
Woods doesn't have all of his bases covered in the sense you expressed above because he works for people who are actually in a position to evaluate his job performance.
The reason I bring up the coaching thing is because of our HC Fraizer. Part of me knows hes improved. But part of me says who cant improve over the worst record in Vikings history. I still cant quite place my finger on whats different about a coach and a manager. I just hope things continue to improve, but I don't think a I cant another Childress era.
Frasier's first full season was in the middle of a roster that was deliberately being blown up by the GM. I'm sure he made mistakes, perhaps most notably the McNabb deal. However, there were plenty of things that happened in 2011 that were beyond his control: The mess in the secondary that year really didn't have anything to do with his coaching IMO, you basically had a situation where your #1 corner was maybe a 4th stringer on any other NFL club. The offensive line was well, offensive. QB was a mess. WR were not competitive, list goes on and on. All that represents a significant head wind to any coach. I doubt Belicek would have won 6 games with that situation.
IMO 2011 was us paying the piper for the blatant mismanagement of the Childress era, both due to Chilidog and to the Wilf's having a learning curve on how an NFL team should be run vs. that stupid triangle of authority or whatever it was when it came to personnel decisions. To be frank, I think we should in some ways celebrate 2011. Spielman blew up the team in 1 season. We then turned around and had a 10 win campaign in 2012. That is better than the slow burn we "enjoyed" under McCombs or the 6-10 year under Clueless that should have been a giant hint given that Tice had that team in the playoffs the year before.
I for one am thus far quite happy with Frasier. I don't feel like he is some Game Day genius, but I don't feel like he is Childress on the sideline either. What I really praise is the fact that he and Spielman have worked together to get the organization all on the same page in terms of what they want to do on offense and defense as well as the kind of players they need to execute said scheme and be competeitive in the NFL. Will it translate to a SB? I don't know, but it hard to think they are not heading in the right direction and for now that is good enough for me.
One other thing. Spielman obviously deserves a lot of credit for the way the drafts have gone the past 2 years, but I think Frasier also dserves credit. You cannot deny that it appears the the management structure of the Vikings seem to be working towards common goals on a number of fronts. That is a far cry from the way we drafted in the 90s and 00s. I can't recall every feeling as good or confident in our drafts as I have the past 2 years.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
mansquatch wrote:Does Woods get any credit for the dramatic improvement of Jamarca Sanford? Or did Sanford just suddenly get better on his own?
I’d argue a big reason our Secondary had so many issues was the terrible talent at Safety. Between Sharper and Harry the Hitman the talent at the position was just plain terrible. Now we have Smith, plus Raymand and Sanford (both late rounders) providing solid, if not spectacular, play. This group seems to have reasonable depth.
At CB we had Winfield, but Griffen and his many backups were inconsistent at best. The best play we saw from the group was in 2011 before Winfield got hurt and Cook went to Jail. Last year we finally saw solid play across the secondary, but there depth chart is still an issue. Frasier has stated this fact and has said they need to get depth in this area. Losing Winfield hurt, but we now seem to be headed in the right direction with Cook, Rhodes, Robinson, and Jefferson. Scherels is a question mark as is Cook’s durability. Still, the group is coming along. I’d imagine we’ll see another mid round pick invested here.
In defense of Woods we’ve also had quite a run of bad luck in this area. Allen up and retires Abdullah retires. Griffen blows his ACLs and goes off the reservation. Tyrell Johnson is a disaster. The GM let Sharper leave. Dwight Smith was a loser. This year the Winfield situation didn’t do him any favors either.
Despite its youth, I think an argument can be made that our current secondary roster is probably the deepest and most talented we’ve put on the field in at least a decade. It’s been a long road…
The man who gets the credit from a fans perspective in my opinion is the D. Coordinator Alan Williams. He has dialed the right plays and put our players in the best position to defend. And give credit to the D-Line coach. Because I never thought Brian Robison would improve the way he did. Have you guys ever noticed that if the D-Line doesn't rush the QB, we get burned. If thats one group this team has been consisted with his the D-Line. Our DB core is good but they'll get better from experience, not coach Joe Woods. He's one of Mike Tice's boys and should have left when Tice left. I fear because Speilman is drafting so good, that it may cover up the coaching flaws because our players have so much raw talent.
So how do you know it is Williams making the players better and not the position coaches? That is easy to say, but as they say in Missouri, Show Me?
I'm fine with holding the guy at the top accountable for both good and bad, but I really do not see any evidence to say Williams is coaching these guys with the additional "hurdle" of bad assistants. Using your logic we should also blame Allen Williams for the current dirth of MLB talent and the utter failure of Jasper Brinkley to pan out. I think that line of thought is stupid, but that is the logic you are using.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
Who to point the finger at is difficult, but I think there's merit to the criticism. This is a defense that set an NFL record for most consecutive games without an interception just a couple of years ago. And as for talent, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen and Marcus McCauley were not 6th and 7th rounders so there's valid concern there as well.
On the flip side, you can look at a guy like Harrison Smith who had a great year and Josh Robinson who I think held his own for the most part. This year will be indicative of whether or not that progress continues and Chris Cook certainly plays a big factor in that one way or the other. Regression in the secondary this year would certainly look very poorly on the coaching staff as there is a fair amount of high draft picks now vested in safety and corner.
S197 wrote:Who to point the finger at is difficult, but I think there's merit to the criticism. This is a defense that set an NFL record for most consecutive games without an interception just a couple of years ago. And as for talent, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen and Marcus McCauley were not 6th and 7th rounders so there's valid concern there as well.
You have to factor in that a fairly substantial percentage of draft choices, even first and second round choices, don't work out so while the failure of Tyrell Johnson might reflect poorly on his position coach, it might just indicate that Johnson was one of those second round draft picks who didn't have what it takes. Allen and McCauley were both 3rd round picks, which means they weren't exactly the cream of the DB crop coming out of college, although 3rd round picks certainly aren't the bottom of the barrel either. If one of those 3 players had gone on to be successful with another team, it would be a different story but as it is, their failures may have had nothing to do with Woods at all. They might represent failures of the scouting department or just players who couldn't make it for long in the pros. I don't think there's merit to placing blame at Woods' feet unless someone can point to a reason why his coaching was a significant factor in those players not working out as pros. I'm not saying he's blameless, just reiterating that we don't know so while criticism of the Vikings in this area may have merit, specifically blaming Woods seems like a stretch without more to back up the criticism. It should certainly take more than "these players didn't work out" or "He's one of Mike Tice's boys and should have left when Tice left."
Mothman wrote:
You have to factor in that a fairly substantial percentage of draft choices, even first and second round choices, don't work out so while the failure of Tyrell Johnson might reflect poorly on his position coach, it might just indicate that Johnson was one of those second round draft picks who didn't have what it takes. Allen and McCauley were both 3rd round picks, which means they weren't exactly the cream of the DB crop coming out of college, although 3rd round picks certainly aren't the bottom of the barrel either. If one of those 3 players had gone on to be successful with another team, it would be a different story but as it is, their failures may have had nothing to do with Woods at all. They might represent failures of the scouting department or just players who couldn't make it for long in the pros. I don't think there's merit to placing blame at Woods' feet unless someone can point to a reason why his coaching was a significant factor in those players not working out as pros. I'm not saying he's blameless, just reiterating that we don't know so while criticism of the Vikings in this area may have merit, specifically blaming Woods seems like a stretch without more to back up the criticism. It should certainly take more than "these players didn't work out" or "He's one of Mike Tice's boys and should have left when Tice left."
Yeah that is probably the only way I can really justifiable blame a coach is if the player flounders under him but goes to a new team and becomes a probowler. If however, a player sucks every where they go and bounce out of the league it's hard to say woods should have made him a super star.
mansquatch wrote:So how do you know it is Williams making the players better and not the position coaches? That is easy to say, but as they say in Missouri, Show Me?
I'm fine with holding the guy at the top accountable for both good and bad, but I really do not see any evidence to say Williams is coaching these guys with the additional "hurdle" of bad assistants. Using your logic we should also blame Allen Williams for the current dirth of MLB talent and the utter failure of Jasper Brinkley to pan out. I think that line of thought is stupid, but that is the logic you are using.
It is not the Defensive Coordinator fault for the problem at MLB. I think we have other guys on the staff who are responsible for trying to get good players on the team. I think the Coordinator's main job is to formulate a gameplan for each week and create some plays that they think will help us hold off the opposing team for the win.
The DB coach is responsible for all the personal one on one reps, tackling drills, coverage drills, and deciding who should be where when the depth chart comes out.
The D. Coordinator is there to go over plays and when the DB is looking pretty shabby, its the DB coach fault for starting a guy who is not contributing like he should. Of course all coaches will take the blame but I personally believe it comes to the position coach.
And I just made this analysis off personal observation myself. I play a little college ball myself at Alabama State University.
