Vikings Message Board.Com

mansquatch wrote:This seems like a silly idea. Cruz is 6 feet tall. We already have both JW and PH who can fill those duties. What they need is a big body guy with some height and hands. Cruz is no doubt a top player right now, but he just doesn’t fit into what the Vikings need.

Absolutely true. In some fan's minds one inch makes a huge difference though

If we need height we use our TE's. like the Pats do. Nothing at all wrong with PH, Wright and Cruz. That speed should scare any secondary. Then let AD burn em.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:If we need height we use our TE's. like the Pats do. Nothing at all wrong with PH, Wright and Cruz. That speed should scare any secondary. Then let AD burn em.

That's what I am thinking!! Carlson and Rudolph are plenty tall enough to catch the high balls.

Purple bruise wrote: Absolutely true. In some fan's minds one inch makes a huge difference though

You're going to compare a guy with back to back 1000 yard seasons with Wright?

So if you can sign Harvin for just the deal part of that and keep your first, which you need to help restock other areas of your team, which one do you do?

If he didn't have an attitude issue and a hard on for a new deal, you re-sign him. No brainer. Regardless of the fact he's injury prone and isn't going to be able to keep the production up with the style of play he employs.

Next question...

If the front office has decided he's a cancer, and to get rid of him, do you still think it's crazy to consider Cruz? Or if he's unwilling to work a long term deal with the team with the bad blood that's been reported?

I guess the possibility of Jarius Wright or Micheal Jenkins and some late first round rookie is acceptable to some people. Maybe they can continue to give Ponder more time because of his lack of weapons that way!

And it wasn't just running the routes, it was learning, and playing on the outside altogether. But those were just reports in the media, lacking the three named and notarized sources necessary to be believed.

Demi wrote: If the front office has decided he's a cancer, and to get rid of him, do you still think it's crazy to consider Cruz? Or if he's unwilling to work a long term deal with the team with the bad blood that's been reported?

*If* either of those are true Harvin is gone anyway, so obviously it would not be crazy to at least test the waters for Cruz (although I'm still not crazy about giving up a 1st for him along with a big contract, but it could work out as a good deal in the end).

Demi wrote: I guess the possibility of Jarius Wright or Micheal Jenkins and some late first round rookie is acceptable to some people. Maybe they can continue to give Ponder more time because of his lack of weapons that way!

I don't know if that is directed at me, but absent Harvin the Vikes would need to find someone who can be a viable threat at WR.

Demi wrote: And it wasn't just running the routes, it was learning, and playing on the outside altogether. But those were just reports in the media, lacking the three named and notarized sources necessary to be believed.

This is the first I've ever read that Harvin struggled or resisted playing on the outside. I've read the reports about him at Florida and the incidents with Childress and Frazier, but never read anything about this. Do you have a source or a link where I can read about what you are mentioning here? All I've ever read is that Harvin wanted more action, not less. Some of the friction over this summer was supposedly more about how frequently Harvin saw the field and in what situations. The numbers supported more time, but he had been held off the field in Frazier's first year in critical situations IIRC and he didn't like it. If that is true, the reports that he resisted learning more positions would be counter to his desire to be on the field more and contribute more.

This is the first I've ever read that Harvin struggled or resisted playing on the outside.

I don't recall anything about resisting it. I tried googling it since I remember reading an article but all I could find was http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... ings-fate/

Harvin falls in a somewhat different category because he's known as a space player (albeit an explosive one) whose production must be manufactured to an extent. Receivers get paid to independently beat one-on-one coverage, and scouts have doubts about whether Harvin can do that on an every-down basis through his route-running ability.

He has excelled as a slot receiver, but struggled when asked to play outside.

I thought it was more out of mini-camp or the offseason and his struggles learning the new position.

It also links a Pellisero article that doesn't say anything specifically about that, but I did find the line

Still, skepticism persists about Harvin, even without considering questions about his durability and chances for becoming a fully dimensional receiver. He has a reputation within the building for being emotional and unpredictable, to the point team officials were relieved he even reported the shoulder problem that led to surgery in April.

interesting. 6 months later, and he's out because of an ankle and having surgery for something else. As well as two reported spats with his head coach. You reap what you sow!!!

Purple bruise wrote: I will tell you my opinion. If I were a GM and had to choose between Cruz or Harvin there would be no choice. Harvin going away. Harvin was being touted by many as being the BEST overall offensive threat in the NFL. I totally agree with that assesment. Harvin can return kicks (better than anyone in the league) has great hands, moves and strength. I am not discounting Cruz' ability or upside but he pales in comparison to what Harvin brings to the game. Character issues? I think not. In fact he is a saint compared to what Randy Moss was and there are still some fans wanting him back on the team. Most of this crap is media speculation. I think that Harvin will extend his contract beyond next year and if he does'nt then they can/will slap a franchize tag on him and keep him for one more year.

I dunno about pale in comparison, both helped their teams win games. I wanna see Harvin score more, before I get all giddy. He brings.a lot to the table, not sure he's used right.

If I were a GM and had to choose between Cruz or Harvin there would be no choice. Harvin going away.

Harvin has had 4 years as a starter and hasn't managed a single season with the production Cruz has had in EITHER of his two seasons as a starter. And Harvin can't even stay healthy, but you'd take him "going away"???...

Demi wrote: Harvin has had 4 years as a starter and hasn't managed a single season with the production Cruz has had in EITHER of his two seasons as a starter. And Harvin can't even stay healthy, but you'd take him "going away"???...

Who throws to Cruz?

Demi wrote: Harvin has had 4 years as a starter and hasn't managed a single season with the production Cruz has had in EITHER of his two seasons as a starter. And Harvin can't even stay healthy, but you'd take him "going away"???...

Honestly, your attitude toward Harvin is almost pathological. How many rushing yards/TDs does Cruz have? How about return yards or TDs? You do recall that Harvin was seriously in the talk for MVP before he went down and AD kept running and running and running.

Cruz is an excellent receiver and it would be great to see him in Purple, but Harvin is an excellent player and he belongs in Purple.

With the tender on Cruz, the price is probably higher than the Vikings are willing to pay.
But what about Greg Jennings? He's able to play every WR position and has the speed, hands and separation you need to open up the rest of the field for Randolph and Harvin.
If they could land Jennings, or some other established WR, I can even see keeping Jerome Simpson as the No. 3 or 4 (as long as we bring in some other option as well, at least to camp). One good WR with speed can change the overall complexion of the WR corps.

Depending how the draft falls, and no one can really guess what will happen by the time No. 23 arrives, I think the Vikings will take the "best player available" among the positions they think are the biggest needs (WR, LB or even DT ... and even, but not likely, CB). I'd love to see an upgrade at guard, too, but unless Larry Little is there in the draft, you can find perfectly fine guards in later rounds (where they tend to be selected).

Boon wrote: So we should go after bowe or wallace, who are known halfassers and wallace is one dimensional. Or draft an unproven rookie, vs getting a surefire talent that would give ponder the weapon he desperately needs?

Like many have noted, isn't Harvin already that weapon?

Boon wrote: You realize that if we actually would manage to get cruz and keep harvin with no deal and franchise him that ponder would have both on the field the next two years?

Only problem with this approach is you guarantee you have Harvin (and a more unhappy one at that) for only 2 more years before you are almost guaranteed to lose him (and that's if you can afford to pay 2 WR's top-flight money for one year, which is what would happen if they did franchise Harvin). That's not the long-term thinking that appears to characterize Spielman's approach.

Boon wrote: Edit: We would see what the kid is really capable of then

Maybe, maybe not. You might see it with just Harvin and a draft pick from this year's class.

Here's what is going to happen - the Giants are going to retain Cruz, and the Vikes will be left looking at some of the guys you mention. And I think Spielman is going to say screw it and focus on getting Harvin extended and look for his #1 in this year's draft. And who knows, if Wright develops and maybe Childs comes back healthy, the situation at WR might just organically improve, especially if Ponder himself improves.

I don't think the situation at WR is as desperate as some, and I personally hate desperation moves because they rarely produce the sort of long-term results that the perpetually competitive teams enjoy. Spielman is done with the flash-in-the-pan approach. He won't reach for a guy like Cruz because he knows he's already got his guy in Harvin and he can get other guys via good scouting in the draft. The single most significant factor in improving the passing game next year is a guy named Ponder and his ability to develop. That horse has left the barn already, and both Frazier and Spielman must know it's his continued improvement that is what is needed far more than some FA "magic bullet". The team still has far too many holes for Spielman to go around blowing more high draft picks and overpaying for FA saviors to deliver the team.

That's the way I see it, and I'll be shocked if it turns out any other way.

I agree with most of what you are saying Vikinglord. I would just make it as simple as this. If you had to choose between Harvin and Cruz, who would you rather have playing for the Vikes? As I previously posted, no contest, Harvin Brings a whole lot more to the team and maybe is the best offensive weapon in the entire NFL.

absolutely yes. we have several players we can cut that are not worth their wages

VikingLord wrote:Here's what is going to happen - the Giants are going to retain Cruz, and the Vikes will be left looking at some of the guys you mention. And I think Spielman is going to say screw it and focus on getting Harvin extended and look for his #1 in this year's draft. And who knows, if Wright develops and maybe Childs comes back healthy, the situation at WR might just organically improve, especially if Ponder himself improves.

This is exactly what I think will happen. I also add JC and JS into the mix of being able to improve. Not saying they’ll be pro bowlers, but they were both injured this year. It seems reasonable that if healthy their production will increase. As you said, it is all about Ponder’s development, but in December we saw flashes from JS as well as Ponder. Consistency is of course the elusive goal.

I look at the roster for WR & TE and I think if they carry 6 WR there is room for maybe 1-3 new guys. 3 if Childs is done and they shed Jenkins and Aroma. I think they’ll retain JS and JW isn’t going anywhere. If Childs comes back, it comes down to who replaced MJ and DA. My guess is they’ll keep Jenkins as a role player.