Vikings Message Board.Com

My point on #1 wasn't where he lines up which is all the XYZ system really means. My point is on touches.

Consider: All 2012 stats:
The Vikings averaged 62 offensive plays a game.
AP will touched the ball on average ~22 times a game.
Harvin: 10 - 7 Passing / 3 Rushing
KR: 3
JS: 2
This is 37 out of 62 snaps, leaving 25 for everyone else.

That seems like a lot, but you have to figure in 7-10 incomplete passes So that leaves 15-18 touches for everyone else. Also, I think that as our offense improves we'll see the numbers for all of the 4 above increase. (AP was hobbled first half of year, Harvin going out hurt Rudolph, JS played hurt, etc.) Some of this is predicated on Ponder being a better passer, but lets face it, if he fails at that, a new fancy WR will mean zip. So the point here is that you might have 4-6 touches lying around for another target, the reason for which is that Musgrave would be a fool to not feed AP and PH. (Consider the calls for his Job if PH had 5 targerts or AP had 15 carries)

They need a guy who can be good for 4-6 touches. Most likely a guy with some gas to stretch the defense and create softer coverage for bubbles to PH.

#1 usually seems to refer to the best receiver on a team or the top receivers in the league (since some teams could be said to lack a "#1 receiver") but I have yet to see a concise definition of the term.

A team's biggest deep threat can really come from any of the 3 WR positions. Sometimes it's a split end but teams often line their speedier receivers up at flanker or in the slot because playing off the line helps them to avoid being jammed and get a clean release. On some plays, the Vikes used to run Moss out of the slot and I don't think there's any doubt that he was their #1 receiver.

You hit the nail on the head JIm.

Percy Harvin is a number one receiver. He is the best receiver on the team. What this team really needs is someone who can play Flanker and Split End consistently. Percy can play either X or Z receiver, but he is such a nightmare match up when he comes out of the slot.

In all honesty, if Jerome is resigned, I will not be upset. I like Jerome and think he can be an asset to the team. I will be angry though if this team does not add another WR in the offseason.

I think JW and if resigned, JS, can give them the deep threat, JW showed he can make that play in December. What they lack is a true outside possession guy who can get separation. Jenkins is the past his prime version of that player. (wasn't much of a prime, but whatever)

The issue I do not get is why KR isn't this guy for the Vikings? He is 6'5" with a monster catch radius. He isn't fast, but they don't need this guy to be fast. This is also where JC enters the discussion a bit. I think prior to JC getting hurt the original intent was to run 2 TE to provide the possesion receiving options. If they retain JC it isn't a stretch to think they'll attempt this in the future.

Some more mud for the mix: If they want to run AP behind Felton that leaves room for 3 WR/TE on the field. If you are going 2 TE, does that mean you have PH as the sole WR? I wonder if the success of Felton plus the bust of Carlson will equal the end of the 2 TE formation under Musgrave?

mansquatch wrote:I think JW and if resigned, JS, can give them the deep threat, JW showed he can make that play in December. What they lack is a true outside possession guy who can get separation. Jenkins is the past his prime version of that player. (wasn't much of a prime, but whatever)

The issue I do not get is why KR isn't this guy for the Vikings? He is 6'5" with a monster catch radius. He isn't fast, but they don't need this guy to be fast. This is also where JC enters the discussion a bit. I think prior to JC getting hurt the original intent was to run 2 TE to provide the possesion receiving options. If they retain JC it isn't a stretch to think they'll attempt this in the future.

It's just a difference of position. Rudolph can and does make "possession" catches from the TE position but they need someone on the outside who can do likewise. The bottom line is the Vikes aren't winning enough on the outside. Wright has shown promise but they need outside receivers who can win one-on-one battles with some consistency, outside WRs who repeatedly create real matchup problems. I don't know if Wright can do that or not. If so, that would be great. He's definitely shown promise.

Some more mud for the mix: If they want to run AP behind Felton that leaves room for 3 WR/TE on the field. If you are going 2 TE, does that mean you have PH as the sole WR? I wonder if the success of Felton plus the bust of Carlson will equal the end of the 2 TE formation under Musgrave?

I imagine they'll continue to mix it up and use a variety of different personnel packages and formations. They may run less 2 TE offense as a base but I have absolutely no doubt they'll keep running plays with 2 TEs on the field.

I agree on multiple sets. I think part of winning the battles is also the QB. While the guys were not always 100%, the QB play also was less than stellar. That of course improved. JS can win the quick slant battle, he just needs to hold onto the football. Wright has shown he can beat guys deep and is a real speed threat. As you said, consistency is the issue. So if they improve consistency (QB makes throws, WR do not drop ball) does that square the defense into alignment changes which favor PH/AP?

As we’ve hashed through this perhaps the above is the X Factor. They have guys who have flashed the ability. Perhaps part of what we want when we say “improve” is more consistency. No real question there. But also, maybe that can come from current names vs. new names?

So here is a wrinkle for you. Cut JC and sign Jermichael Finley, who I believe is an FA this year. Finley is not without his baggage, but he is a match up nightmare.

mansquatch wrote:So here is a wrinkle for you. Cut JC and sign Jermichael Finley, who I beleive is an FA this year. Finley is not without his baggage, but he is a match up nightmare.

It's an intriguing idea, depending on the price tag. Finley's struggled with injuries but he can definitely create problems for opposing defenses!

I think they'll end up paying Carlson about the same whether they keep him or cut him so the odds of Spielman cutting him seem slim to me. However, that doesn't mean he couldn't be bumped down the depth chart.

My take on the JC cost thing is that JC is a sunk cost. So really the question is what they think he can do giong forward. I think it was shown it only costs them about $2MM more this season to have him on the roster. that being said, the NFL is all about what have you done for me lately and if they think Finley (or a big name WR) is a huge improvement they might be willing to absorb the hit and then have the space freed up in subsequent years. That is but one wrinkle to their salary cap. It isn't just about today, but also about the future.

The bottom line on JC is that he currently is not earning his salary. The question is how that situation changes whether it be via improvement on the field, restructuring, or his getting cut.

Simpson is so insignificant it doesnt really matter that Ponder wants him to return. The only 2 Ponder had chemestry with were PH and Kyle. Jenkins was as solid as Simpson. Lets get Cruz and wave bye bye to Simpson plz.

In the first half of today's NFC Championship game, Julio Jones and Roddy White demonstrated just why it's essential that the Vikings seriously upgrade their WR talent and how much big, quality outside receivers can help a QB. The distance between a pair of WRs like White and Jones and a pair of WRs like Simpson and Jenkins is vast. Admittedly, it's hard to find a better pair of outside WRs in the league than Jones and White so it would be a tall order to match that combo but if the Vikes want any QB to thrive in their offense, they need to improve their talent on the outside.

Mothman wrote:In the first half of today's NFC Championship game, Julio Jones and Roddy White demonstrated just why it's essential that the Vikings seriously upgrade their WR talent and how much big, quality outside receivers can help a QB. The distance between a pair of WRs like White and Jones and a pair of WRs like Simpson and Jenkins is vast. Admittedly, it's hard to find a better pair of outside WRs in the league than Jones and White so it would be a tall order to match that combo but if the Vikes want any QB to thrive in their offense, they need to improve their talent on the outside.

And how many people here would savage the Vikings for coming anywhere near what Atlanta did for Jones? Heck a proven commodity like Cruz and people are scared because it would cost our late first round pick and a big contract. Regardless of whether or not it's even a possibility.

We're likely not going to be able to get those top flight outside guys sitting at our late 1st round position, or signing second tier free agents. Are we going to get serious, or just continue our "running the ball is good enough for us!" approach?

Demi wrote:And how many people here would savage the Vikings for coming anywhere near what Atlanta did for Jones?

Who cares?

We're likely not going to be able to get those top flight outside guys sitting at our late 1st round position, or signing second tier free agents. Are we going to get serious, or just continue our "running the ball is good enough for us!" approach?

White was the 27th pick in the draft so it's clearly possible to get a top flight outside WR in the latter part of the first round. I don't know that any of the WRs in this draft will be as good as White has become but that's a different issue.

I think the Vikes are already serious and I don't believe for a second that they have a "running the ball is good enough for us" philosophy. However, they're also serious about building their team primarily through the draft. We'll see what happens this offseason but I suspect by August it will look like they're very serious about improving at WR. I sure hope so...

mansquatch wrote:How can Julio Jones and Roddy White both be considered #1 WR, don't they both play for the same team?

1a and 1b m

The only thing for sure is that NO matter what they do certain fans will gripe and complain about it no doubt

Mothman wrote: Who cares?

I think Ponder is the only one...